A lot of posters mention that one of the differences between AOS and OTU is that crews did not usually own their ships. I'm not sure if this is true, but in traveller, from what I can tell, most players don't actually own their ships any more than they did (if they didn't) in the AOS. Most PCs have a mortgage which should give some power (corporate, governmental, or imperial) hooks into the workings, coming, and goings of the PCs ship.
"Age of Sail" vs OTU, how close are they really?
- Thread starter EDG
- Start date
Have a look at page 1 of Book 1 of classic Traveller. It says there that the game setting was inspired by 18th century history. 
Specifically, the fact that communication was limited to the speed of travel. Either Loren, Marc or both have also mentioned the Age of Sail in general, the Roman Empire, and the South Sea Islands trade in the 1930s as specific inspirations for Traveller.
As for the characteristics of the Age of Sail, I'd say these are the main ones, all stemming from that basic fact that communication was limited to the speed of travel.
1. If you get into trouble, you can't just call for help. You have to sort things out yourself.
2. The government is physically incapable of micromanaging affairs from a distance. Instead, they have to appoint trusted people - plenipotentiaries or viceroys - and give them full responsibility for running things. That means that the local governor or noble in charge might well have some odd ideas about the best way to deal with a crisis, which can get player characters involved...
3. Criminals can remain at perfect liberty as long as they move faster than the warrant calling for their arrest. This is also something that PCs can benefit from.
4. Trade is speculative because there's no way to check the price or availability of goods without physically travelling to the source to buy them. Equally, you won't know what the demand will be in your market until you've physically shipped the goods back home - if you arrive back to find a rival merchant has just reached port and glutted the market by selling his own cargo, you'll only get a much lower price for your own goods. That's why clippers were built to be so fast - the first shipload of tea from China arriving back in England each year could get many times the price of the second shipload.
5. Piracy in the Age of Sail took three major forms.
First, there's the classic 'arr, Jim Lad' full-time pirates. These were a lot rarer than Hollywood makes out, and most had very short careers. They often used stolen ships which had their superstructure cut down for extra speed, and so fell apart after a few months (so they had to steal a new ship...).
Second, there's government-authorised privateers. These were extrememly common in wartime... and if a British ship meets a French ship somewhere in the Indian Ocean after a six-month voyage from home, how was either supposed to know whether their two countries were currently at war or at peace? Safer just to open fire anyway, and blame "pirates" if it turned out that actually, they were at peace.
And finally, there's what the TML used to call "ethically challenged merchants." It's simple enough: all merchant ships were armed, to protect them from pirates. If two ships meet at sea, neither can call for help (no radios, remember?) so if the larger and more heavily-armed ship decides to indulge in a little piracy, who's to know? Human nature being what it is, this sort of thing happened all the time. Eventually, large government-organised navies decided to stamp out piracy, but it took a long time and only really happened near the end of this period.
6. At the beginning of the Age of Sail, all ships were privately owned. Even 'royal' ships were owned by the King and paid for with his own money. If a country went to war, the government would hire as many private ships as it could afford, and organise them under an admiral. Even by the 17th century this system was still in effect, although goverments tended to pay for more 'King's Ships' to act as the hard core of the fleet, in case they weren't able to hire enough private ships. It was only by about 1650 onwards that professional navies of the type known today really started to form.
7. Mass migration really wasn't an important feature of the Age of Sail. The colonists who headed out for the New World were relatively tiny groups, a few dozen or a hundred or so at a time. You actual mass migration happenened in the 19th Century as a result of the invention of the steamship.
Specifically, the fact that communication was limited to the speed of travel. Either Loren, Marc or both have also mentioned the Age of Sail in general, the Roman Empire, and the South Sea Islands trade in the 1930s as specific inspirations for Traveller.As for the characteristics of the Age of Sail, I'd say these are the main ones, all stemming from that basic fact that communication was limited to the speed of travel.
1. If you get into trouble, you can't just call for help. You have to sort things out yourself.
2. The government is physically incapable of micromanaging affairs from a distance. Instead, they have to appoint trusted people - plenipotentiaries or viceroys - and give them full responsibility for running things. That means that the local governor or noble in charge might well have some odd ideas about the best way to deal with a crisis, which can get player characters involved...
3. Criminals can remain at perfect liberty as long as they move faster than the warrant calling for their arrest. This is also something that PCs can benefit from.
4. Trade is speculative because there's no way to check the price or availability of goods without physically travelling to the source to buy them. Equally, you won't know what the demand will be in your market until you've physically shipped the goods back home - if you arrive back to find a rival merchant has just reached port and glutted the market by selling his own cargo, you'll only get a much lower price for your own goods. That's why clippers were built to be so fast - the first shipload of tea from China arriving back in England each year could get many times the price of the second shipload.
5. Piracy in the Age of Sail took three major forms.
First, there's the classic 'arr, Jim Lad' full-time pirates. These were a lot rarer than Hollywood makes out, and most had very short careers. They often used stolen ships which had their superstructure cut down for extra speed, and so fell apart after a few months (so they had to steal a new ship...).
Second, there's government-authorised privateers. These were extrememly common in wartime... and if a British ship meets a French ship somewhere in the Indian Ocean after a six-month voyage from home, how was either supposed to know whether their two countries were currently at war or at peace? Safer just to open fire anyway, and blame "pirates" if it turned out that actually, they were at peace.
And finally, there's what the TML used to call "ethically challenged merchants." It's simple enough: all merchant ships were armed, to protect them from pirates. If two ships meet at sea, neither can call for help (no radios, remember?) so if the larger and more heavily-armed ship decides to indulge in a little piracy, who's to know? Human nature being what it is, this sort of thing happened all the time. Eventually, large government-organised navies decided to stamp out piracy, but it took a long time and only really happened near the end of this period.
6. At the beginning of the Age of Sail, all ships were privately owned. Even 'royal' ships were owned by the King and paid for with his own money. If a country went to war, the government would hire as many private ships as it could afford, and organise them under an admiral. Even by the 17th century this system was still in effect, although goverments tended to pay for more 'King's Ships' to act as the hard core of the fleet, in case they weren't able to hire enough private ships. It was only by about 1650 onwards that professional navies of the type known today really started to form.
7. Mass migration really wasn't an important feature of the Age of Sail. The colonists who headed out for the New World were relatively tiny groups, a few dozen or a hundred or so at a time. You actual mass migration happenened in the 19th Century as a result of the invention of the steamship.
StephenT said:
I never really understood this. I mean, sure, there's the one week lag - but that's all it is. I'd presume that any ships entering the system would immediately broadcast the latest "pricelist" from their departure system (i.e. a list of how much goods were bought and sold for when they left) and that would update a central database at the arrival system's starport. Couple that with a record of prices over the years and decades and you can see market trends very easily (plus, the trade codes would determine a baseline of what sold well and for how much - raw resources might sell well on a Lo Ni world that didn't have the people there to mine them themselves for example).
So yes, the price list would be out of date by a week because of jump lag, but I remain unconvinced that traders are just taking pot luck on their cargo when they arrive in a system. By analysing the market trends beforehand a trader would have a pretty decent idea of what sold well.
EDG said:
Besides, in a plausible economy the trader will operate in a small region
and will always trade with the same planets. He will have local contacts
and will know his part of the market quite well after some months. In
fact, many of the "speculative" goods he trades with will probably be pre-
ordered goods ("... and remember, Captain, we need a cheap air-raft
and five tons of fertilizer when you return in three months.").
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
I agree that it would be much less uninformed than in 1700 -but you are still working on the assumption that all transactions are single jump, and that no-one shows up with new stuff at your destination while you are in jumpspace. You see a need for T12 TachyonPhase_amplifier modules(tm), on system A, and a great bargain on system B. You leave from B with a hold full, to discover that a J3 freighter full of better, cheaper versions has arrived in the meantime.....ahead of the J1 news of its departure.
Then, too, the information about what one is carrying can be arguably a manipulable commodity, also....you then show up at another system knowing that the bulk freighter of T14 TachyonPhase_amplifier modules(tm), or another J1 merchant who bought a bunch, is at the last system you were on -and likely headed to this one. But not exactly when the ship will leave, or directly;
the local dealer of T12 TachyonPhase_amplifier modules(tm) will be very interested, but may not be told at all if you are carrying his latest order, or a crucial part for his soon to be market bottom remainer units....
Its not just a time lag that causes the speculation, but information theory (lies) and human greed.
captainjack23 said:
True, but that's the speculative part
. I'm just saying that it's not going to be completely blind luck as to what the market would be like at your destination. But then in this "database transfer" presumably one could check the data on other systems within J6 range and notice that some other system has a bunch of the same items for cheaper that someone else could bring in...
It's a networking thing really. I'm assuming that (a) everyone is honest about it (a stretch, I know!) and (b) that every system has a reasonably constant stream of traffic arriving (say on an hourly basis) that can retransmit their market lists so the central database on the planet can be updated frequently.
I half wonder if the trade models of EVE Online or (going back a ways) Elite could be applicable here. That said, jump in both those games was pretty much instant, though I don't think you can check the prices in your destination system from a remote system.
It'd be a lot less speculative than Age of Sail, anyway.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
EDG said:
Yes, if they are available -remember, holding a futures contract (what you are describing, in essence) always runs the risk of a new factor destroying the value of the contract -which you are legally obliged too. Unless you are bankrupt already, in which case you AND the contract holder are screwed.
I'd suggest that much of the spec market (which I feel is the bulk of what player-driven commerce feeds off of) would involve trying to do exactly this - get in goods below a futures price; you'll make some profit, and undercut a rival (always a consideration).
Besides. The safe contract market isn't really what the stuff of RPG adventure is about Characters have already had their time in cushy safe jobs if they want; now they are player characters, and by definition not doing that stuff anymore.........one can assume anything about the boring regular commerce one wants, and if it doesn't impact the players, it is irrelevent; and, I note, best not described by the game, so as to avoid forcing a bunch of needless assumptions on players and GM's who buy the game.
For players, the Cargo shipping opportunities cover contracts and orders well enough (you buy it, you own it; I carry it, you pay me up front; you get to selll it and take the gain or risk for yourself. )
GamerDude
Cosmic Mongoose
...captainjack23 said:
Its not just a time lag that causes the speculation, but information theory (lies) and human greed.[/quote]I was thinking about that same thing as I read the new posts... The shortest amount of lag between information leaving a system, getting to you so you can buy the goods, and getting back to the first planet is two weeks. As pointed out, that's quite a bit of time for someone else to show up with the same goods but that's the nature of 'speculative' trading.
Then there is the 'contracted' regular hauling of goods, which is very good if you can have a contract at either end so you can just haul stuff back and forth for a guaranteed price/fee. You might not make as much profit as with successful speculative trading, but a steady income is just that... STEADY.
StephenT, great summary of what CT says and history etc.
captainjack23 said:
True.
In our setting the interesting part was establishing the trade between all
those young frontier colonies and between them and the far-off industri-
alized worlds, and once the trade network was established, things beca-
me rather dull, more like bookkeeping than adventuring.
A regional war with privateers and pirates and some unexpected outside
competition revived the trade part of the setting somewhat, but trade it-
self is now mostly a background part of the setting, except for the rare
unusual special trade missions ("We need that military-grade densitome-
ter ...").
"Realistic" trade is nice for an economy simulation, but in itself not very
adventurous, I think.
captainjack23
Cosmic Mongoose
Okay, I wasn't either - and I'm not sure that that has been the claim -speculative trade is just that....not gambling. I think once again, we have a more specific term being read more generally, possibly because Traveller isn't LCD enough..EDG said:captainjack23 said:
True, but that's the speculative part
But, regardless, lets always remember that a fair number of merchants will treat it as such, or try and act around it, and likely fail...adding a lot of nose to the network; and also remember, Casinos always make money, so someone must have a poor grasp of the situation.....Exactly. There is an official J4 net, and I have no doubt that J6 courier routes that mainly ship data exist. I've been playing around with it in one campaign where players do have a J6 ship and are trying to set up an express info system at a chokepoint J6 away from a major system for imports.
I look at it as a big torrent network moving at a one week per node latency. Unfortunately, metainformation about what information a node has is a big trade commodity, and would be subject to all the limits and filters that any propriatary info has on it. Which, my theory is, is one of the key functions that the Xboat net provides -reliable open flow of data from trusted sources.
Interstingly (and relevent to your other thread), this would have particular influence on how the empire rules space.
"Join the Empire !
Get reliable Filesharing ; protection from pirates and raiders also included in basic Imperial package
(some taxes may be required; fealty will vary by nobility and location; local law and government restrictions may apply, please contact your local rulers before applying) " !
Less, yes. BUT I think you are positing too much knowledge about the system to be able to classify or qualify it as "lots" less.
captainjack23 said:
I'd argue that speculative trading isn't exactly the pinnacle of excitement either
. I think speculative trade is one good excuse to get embroiled in an adventure as a result of Unforseen Consequences, but look at Firefly - they have a lot of contract work going on there and they still get into trouble.My humble opinion would be that
the TU is generally 1 where most ships are armed because you just don't know how you will meet out there except for the most secure zones
so seeing armed merchant men is not uncommon
I would place the like equvilant to Elizabethean Engalnd where during the Armada armed merchant men where called into service and the total number of ship that came up where equal in number to the Spanish present
the TU is generally 1 where most ships are armed because you just don't know how you will meet out there except for the most secure zones
so seeing armed merchant men is not uncommon
I would place the like equvilant to Elizabethean Engalnd where during the Armada armed merchant men where called into service and the total number of ship that came up where equal in number to the Spanish present
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
Megacorps and sector lines probably do share data between their internal crews so that they can get the best deals. There's an adventure hook in hacking their local factor's database to get their trade summary and any analyses of local economic trends; that's got to be some hot data.
The Earth has 6 billion people, how many tons of Electronics would be required to flood the market and cause prices to fall to record low levels?
And how large is your Starship?
I doubt that your Free Trader (or an arch rival's 400 dTon Merchant) can flood the market.
And how large is your Starship?
I doubt that your Free Trader (or an arch rival's 400 dTon Merchant) can flood the market.
atpollard said:
With a small colony and comparatively expensive goods, this can well hap-
pen.
If the colonists can only afford to buy some dozen air/rafts per year, and
your arch rival delivers a 400 dt ship full of cheap air/rafts a month be-
fore you reach the planet with your cargo of more expensive grav vehi-
cles ... bad luck.
Besides, I think you will not find that many tramp traders serving planets
with billions of inhabitants, this really is the big megacorporations' busi-
ness.
