It’s not just the brain that crystallizes it’s all the cells.
Advanced Low Berth?
- Thread starter Morgoth99
- Start date
The "safe" way for the bored nobles (also from E.C. Tubb) are drugs, of course. Passengers zonked out on Fast Drug and sedated just take up a cot in Medbay, for Cr200 a shot. It's always been a thing in Traveller, but somewhat surprisingly ship fittings haven't really been listed for them.
The drug description even states that they use less life support reserves (presumably 1/60th, or about Cr17 per maintainence period...)
There is little obvious reason to go through the whole cryo process unless the person is going to be under for an extended period, or is unable to use Fast Drug (such as a critically injured subject put on ice until surgery can be done). Why not just fill those low berths with Fast Drug passengers, under similar medical supervision? The cost difference (Cr100 per low berth every 4 weeks vs Cr200 per dose of Fast Drug and Cr200 for the antidote) isn't terribly significant, would presumably be borne by the passenger anyway, and may be a much better option for a ship with unspectacular medical resources.
There is also the possibility that the passenger is delivered to the ship and taken from the ship already frozen. Criminals, medical transfers, wealthy types that trust their own medical facilities to freeze and defrost with time to spare (that a busy merchant ship cannot provide). In those cases you might make an easy check to hook them up and disconnect them, assuming they aren't already in a portable unit anyway.
The drug description even states that they use less life support reserves (presumably 1/60th, or about Cr17 per maintainence period...)
There is little obvious reason to go through the whole cryo process unless the person is going to be under for an extended period, or is unable to use Fast Drug (such as a critically injured subject put on ice until surgery can be done). Why not just fill those low berths with Fast Drug passengers, under similar medical supervision? The cost difference (Cr100 per low berth every 4 weeks vs Cr200 per dose of Fast Drug and Cr200 for the antidote) isn't terribly significant, would presumably be borne by the passenger anyway, and may be a much better option for a ship with unspectacular medical resources.
There is also the possibility that the passenger is delivered to the ship and taken from the ship already frozen. Criminals, medical transfers, wealthy types that trust their own medical facilities to freeze and defrost with time to spare (that a busy merchant ship cannot provide). In those cases you might make an easy check to hook them up and disconnect them, assuming they aren't already in a portable unit anyway.
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Spirit of '77
Mongoose
MegaTraveller low berth rules (Imperial Encyclopedia, pg. 87) greatly reduce the chance of death, while implementing other costs. Take a look.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Folks, the only people who travel low berth are the broke and desperate. Some people have to get offworld, no matter the risk they take in doing so. And, as I said, revival mishaps don't have to be fatal.
In addition, there are drugs that induce low-berth type of conditions in both the OTU and 2300 settings. However they require more skilled resuscitation procedures.
In addition, there are drugs that induce low-berth type of conditions in both the OTU and 2300 settings. However they require more skilled resuscitation procedures.
Maybe in 2300, but OT and Mongoose just say there's an antidote and at best mentions a recovery time. Nothing more than routine medical supervision is suggested. No task rolls are listed.
Thing is, sure there are passengers that can't even afford the Cr400 Mongoose gives for those drugs, and they'll risk it. But the risk is a two way matter - not every merchant captain wants to risk dead or crippled passengers, and it's likely that there's enough demand for Drug Passage. Using Mongoose 2e22, Low berths pay CR700 for a jump 1 and cost CR100 per maintenance period. Putting Fast Drugged passengers in a low berth costs Cr400 for the drug and antidote and presumably 1/60th of the life support cost, so Cr17 per maintenence period, unless you want to just ignore that and use the default low berth cost. It would likely be MORE attractive than basic Passage, so you could probably charge the cost of Basic plus the drugs, but save on the life support. Basic is Cr2000 for a Jump-1, so maybe introduce Fast Passage as another Cr2000 option?
Keep in mind I'm just talking about an alternative use for the already installed Low Berths here. You could probably design cheaper bunkage solutions making use of Fast Drug.
Thing is, sure there are passengers that can't even afford the Cr400 Mongoose gives for those drugs, and they'll risk it. But the risk is a two way matter - not every merchant captain wants to risk dead or crippled passengers, and it's likely that there's enough demand for Drug Passage. Using Mongoose 2e22, Low berths pay CR700 for a jump 1 and cost CR100 per maintenance period. Putting Fast Drugged passengers in a low berth costs Cr400 for the drug and antidote and presumably 1/60th of the life support cost, so Cr17 per maintenence period, unless you want to just ignore that and use the default low berth cost. It would likely be MORE attractive than basic Passage, so you could probably charge the cost of Basic plus the drugs, but save on the life support. Basic is Cr2000 for a Jump-1, so maybe introduce Fast Passage as another Cr2000 option?
Keep in mind I'm just talking about an alternative use for the already installed Low Berths here. You could probably design cheaper bunkage solutions making use of Fast Drug.
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Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Additionally on the macro scale there is the problem of differential thermal contraction. Your tissues will tear apart on the microscopic level.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I think what we want is a cooler, that slows everything down, and not a freezer, that stops everything.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
No one asked for it, but as there is no design for the basic low berth in the Robot Handbook, I made one.
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There is work on hibernation being done but so far they haven’t managed any significant decreases in Aging and they are having problems with muscle loss.
I presumed that you could simply allocate cabin space for them. A 2 week journey would equate to less than 6 hours by their perception, a bit much for acceleration benches, but an acceleration couch each and a ton of common space per 4 passenger should give room to wander. Pipe in some synchronised entertainment and you could really shave the costs.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Depends on how that drug actually works.
Many moons ago, I calculated out the dosage, and realized you might need a minimum dosage to create that specific effect.
Many moons ago, I calculated out the dosage, and realized you might need a minimum dosage to create that specific effect.
The Mongoose description at least implies a hibernated state.
But even if they are awake, watching a movie in bed takes care of entertainment for their subjective 3 hour flight.
It's not unreasonable to allow for them to just sleep it out, or for there to be safe sedatives designed to work with standard Fast Drugs.
But even if they are awake, watching a movie in bed takes care of entertainment for their subjective 3 hour flight.
It's not unreasonable to allow for them to just sleep it out, or for there to be safe sedatives designed to work with standard Fast Drugs.
MonsterX
Emperor Mongoose
In OTU, low berths seem to be commonly used not only for passengers, but also as a way to stow people on spaceships who aren't needed at the moment - as in the cold watch. For most situations, even the snake eyes - 1 in 36 - probability of death from this is too high. Also, the system gives you DMs which would be used to prevent death if you could - and most of the time you can. In a situation in which human life has value, there would be regulations to ensure that the things which give those positive DMs would be SOP, and if you didn't do them and someone died as a result, you'd get in trouble. Most medical procedures are dangerous if not done the right way, so medical professionals have to be qualified, and then they do them the right way, and in this context the procedures become routine. Cold sleep would be no different. No military unit, for example, is going to accept 3% attrition just because the leadership doesn't feel like assigning a qualified doctor to the task. No shipping line would let 3% of the passengers die, even if the only penalty were that they got their money back.
However, accidents happen even in our ordered universe and it is usually because someone didn't do things the approved way. A doctor with a fake degree, corners were cut on the equipment, maintenance was not done by mistake or laziness, somebody tries to defrost the passengers a little bit too fast, because they need to use the equipment urgently for a new batch. Or a passenger was concealing some kind of condition they had.
Of course, once you get out of the realm of honest operators, and people who care about not killing other people, then sure, you can have lots of people dying in low berths. It might be a matter of the bottom line - if it is more profitable to do it right, or to cut corners. Or just carelessness, lack of resources, lower technology. There might be time pressures- a military unit that would not accept casualties in normal situations would if they had to get everyone defrosted quickly to get in the fight, for example.
The possibility of having injuries that aren't death from low berths is a good one; it shouldn't be all or nothing and there are lots of possibilities here - like memory loss.
However, accidents happen even in our ordered universe and it is usually because someone didn't do things the approved way. A doctor with a fake degree, corners were cut on the equipment, maintenance was not done by mistake or laziness, somebody tries to defrost the passengers a little bit too fast, because they need to use the equipment urgently for a new batch. Or a passenger was concealing some kind of condition they had.
Of course, once you get out of the realm of honest operators, and people who care about not killing other people, then sure, you can have lots of people dying in low berths. It might be a matter of the bottom line - if it is more profitable to do it right, or to cut corners. Or just carelessness, lack of resources, lower technology. There might be time pressures- a military unit that would not accept casualties in normal situations would if they had to get everyone defrosted quickly to get in the fight, for example.
The possibility of having injuries that aren't death from low berths is a good one; it shouldn't be all or nothing and there are lots of possibilities here - like memory loss.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
You seem to assume that there is a "universal authority" who writes and enforces regulations. I am aware of none that exist in Traveller. Is there a reference to this somewhere? This would seem to tie back into the whole "Dark Imperium" thing.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Technology can help more with survival than they currently do. All that is presented now are basic and advanced low berths. Taking those, I made superior and deluxe low berths that improved the survivability more and even added Vargr capacity with no negative DMs as an added benefit. Here they all are.
The book has the basic unit at a 10% discount and the advanced at a 20% discount, so I'll use 20% for my improved models for consistency.
The book has the basic unit at a 10% discount and the advanced at a 20% discount, so I'll use 20% for my improved models for consistency.
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Even making a couple of tweaks to the advanced model makes it only a bit more expensive and improves the survival odds.
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