ACTA: Battlestar Galactica - Some input please...

[Alexb83]

Actually, fusion weapons do rely on fuel from the atmosphere, much the same way as do fuel-air bombs and other massive ordnance; the primary fuel for the fusion reaction (as I mentioned) is contained in the warhead, and is usually something like lithium deuteride (since deuterium itsself isn't particularly easy to effect a fusion reaction with), however the reaction propagates outward as far as possible, and fusion will occur in any materials which are bombarded with sufficient energy from the explosion.
I would say that all (not many) fusion weapons utilise a fission trigger; a fission reaction is the only effective means to reach a supercritical mass and liberate enough energy for a fusion reaction at the present time. One of the side effects of the fusion reaction is that much of waste associated with the initial fissible fuel is eliminated, or otherwise reduced through the use of a neutron reflecting material.

As for the 'equivalent technology' argument - Ronald D Moore has always said that the Colonial civilisation is only slightly more advanced than our own, and is our sister civilisation - their technology is, besides from space flight (and incidentally, anti-radiation meds) just like ours. Also, I never said it had anything to do with size - the lack of serious damage, and the presence of heavy radiation (although size is a good indicator) pointed to a tactical nuke.

 

[Alexb83]

Yes, the Starship does have heavy radiation shielding and armour (although much of it has apparently been removed from Galactica, which explains her somewhat ramshackle look in the Miniseries).
But it would have to be very heavy armour and shielding to protect something that -relatively- small from a blast in the megaton range.

Yes, I suppose it is all academic - but given the size constraints of the Raider hull (the 'nuke' fired was probably only about 4-6ft long including its propellant stage when put in scale with the raider), the presence of heavy radiation (which intimates a- and b- to me, rather than gamma - the former two requiring far less effort to shield against than gamma radiation, which requires massive amounts of high density materials) indicates something less efficient than a fusion bomb.
But then again, perhaps the Galactica has a hull made of Unobtanium.

 

[captainsmirk]

in the miniseries the cylons use 2 raiders with an indeterminate number of nukes to destroy all the non-jump capable civi ships. additionally when starbuck fails to destroy one of the nukes that's inbound towards galactica, all the viper break to get out of range. furthermore, in "hand of god" starbuck coments that one nuke would destroy the enteire refinery base, and in "33" the civi ship with a nuke on it is presumed to be threat to the fleet even though it would have no way of launching the nuke. all these things imply some level of a blast radius IMO.

whether it's purely radiation damage or actual concussive force, i think it's implied that nukes can affect a reasonable area in the BSG universe. plus good sceince or not, it's definately good gameplay to have some form of blast radius effect and i think more people would expect there to be a blast radius than would expect there not to be one.

I suspect the Viper pilots are more vulnerable to a large outburst of radiation than most ship crews (only so much radiation shielded on fighter)

As for the refinery well if the nuke hit the thing and then detonated then the refinery itself would act as the medium for the blast...

And detonating a nuke inside a ships will send pieces of wreckage flying outwards which could damage other ships...

I just think that E-Mine represents a far too large area of effect (Then again to scale all explosions in ACtA probably do...)

Nick

 

[Locutus9956]

Ok Im not going to tunr this into into flame war as frankly were already going fairly off topic and Id prefer this to get back into discussion on the actual BSG mod rather than a debate on nuclear physics but suffice it to say that in my opinion a large portion of the above (Especially with regards to fusion weapons using surrounding matarial as fuel) is simply wrong. Fusion is not simply a matter of putting enough energy into the materiels, it needs to be directed in order to create sufficient preasure to initiatiate fusion.

But anyway this is getting heavily off topic as I said so lets get back to discussing the mod.

 

[Alexb83]

Indeed - but I think that the game weapon traits dont really give a way to show the effects of nukes from the show. Throwing in SAP, precise, QD or TD etc. doesnt cut it, nor does giving them lots of AD - simply make it such that if they hit, they do a set number of critical hits.

Each side should have a set number of nukes at the start of a game (dependant on the ships) - they can put these on any platforms with missile launchers. Any of the nuke-carriers can nominate to fire a nuke in lieu of normal AD from the launchers - at which point they generate a 'nuke' which is a small ship, effectively (for purposes of movement) and has its own move/turn characteristics, dodge score etc.

The nuke then moves towards its target according to its move/turn ability.

It might also be neat to have the nukes trigger a radiological alarm the turn before, so that you have a turns warning to know where they are coming from, and react accordingly.

 

[Locutus9956]

How about simply working as a emine but with only a 1" or 2" blast radius? Id agree with whoever it was a ways back that suggested it would be best to avoid encouraging their use as anti fighter weapons.

How about this though, nick the quad damage trait from ACTA version 2.0. Even 5 or 6 AD of SAP, Quad Damage, precice would be truly devastating! I do like the idea of making it interceptable though if fired in missile form.

Or possibly even give it the accurate trait (as per the original rules for Vorlons and shadow) that is to say if not intercepted it will automatically hit with all its AD and then roll as precice QD. Now THAT would be nasty....

 

[Alexb83]

I didn't like their potential for use as anti-fighters. As I said, and as the series shows - people can see nukes coming, and get the heck out the way!

Making it accurate, quad damage etc. is far too nasty in my opinion. In a sense, making each nuke hit automatically and do 1d6 crits is the same as making it accurate and super precise. But given the galactica crit rules it comes down to:

1 nuke hits, does d6 crits, rolls a 4 - roll location, get a 6. You've done an automatic 6-4.
2nd nuke hits, rolls a 6. Location is 1. Ship is speed 0, no SA.

And so on... hull damage is factored into the crits already, and quite nasty enough I think! Maybe make them double-damage to increase the potential of the lower crits. But it doesn't make them uber-weapons (although the fact that they essentially roll crits as normal makes them as good as a whole salvo of fire from a Basestar).

Also, as an aside - can we remove the crew crits for the cylons? Any time you roll a 5 for location against a basestar, roll again until you get something else?

 

[Alexb83]

Suggested rules, then:

Each force starts with a number of nuclear warheads as set out in their capital ships' descriptions. These warheads can be allocated as the commander desires, to whichever ships in his fleet have the missile launcher weapon type. No flight may be allocated more nukes than they have AD of missiles, and these missiles replace the normal AD for those launchers. They retain the limited payload trait, and their locations must be noted at the beginning of the battle.

The turn before a ship or flight wishes to fire a nuclear warhead, it must commit the automatic 'activate warheads' SA, and sacrifice the number of AD from its launchers equal to the number of nukes being fired. The enemy will receive a warning of the radiological alarm, and the ship(s) firing the nuke(s) must be stated. If the ship survives to the following turn, nukes are launched, with the following traits:

Damage: 1, Dodge: 2+, Speed: 15, Turns: 1/45 Traits: Nuke*
*The weapon hits automatically if it surives PDS fire and fighter interception. Each hit automatically causes 1d6 critical hits per the BSG crit rules.

 

[Commador Q]

so far i've sugested this:

Special Action "Arm Nuclear Warheads" CQ: automatic
The ship performing this special action may fire any number of it's weapons with the "Nuclear Weapon" trate in nuclear mode. The weapon losses all other traites and gain the following: Super AP, Twin Linked, Quad Damage, Precise, Slow Loading. A Nuclear weapon may be intercepted by fighters that are supporting the target. If any hits are scored on the target (after aplying PD if aplicable), and the target has any supporting fighters each flight may role 1d6 for each remaining hit, on a 6 the hit is intercepted and has no effect. If one or more hits makes it through the target's defences, place a 3inch template centered on the target ship. All ships within this radius (including the target ship) take 2 undodgable Double damage attack dice.

The reason for the special action is to give the feal of the "Radiologic alarms" going off on all the enemy ships when the nuke are armed. This way when the enemy arms nukes you can choose to clear out your fighters (and rely on your PD to save you) or try to move them to intercept (putting additional fleet reasorces at risk if the nuke gets through your PD and your fighters).

or this:

Nuclear Warhead:
Speed: 5
Turns: SM
Hull: 4
Dogfight: +0
Traits: fighter, dodge 2+, Atmospheric
weapons:
Nuclear warhead: range: 0 Ark: T AD: 10, traits: Super AP, Precise, Triple Damage, 3 inch blast radius

then the nuclear weapon trait would allow the missile launcher to act like a dispersial tube, with the weapons range.

every class of ship would have a set number of nukes, and there could be a "nuclear raider" added that is just a single raider with a nuke. then a base star could replace it's heavy raiders with nuclear raiders in order to get more nukes into play.


personally i like both systems. the second one coud benefit from a "rdiologicle alarm" mechanic, but i con't mind it not being there, given that you will always know when a nuke is on the bhoard anyway. also the second system doesn't allow for the Lots of contact damage, but less damage at ran ge effect that the first one does.



i do have an issue with the "fixed number of nukes per side" system. primarily, that they would probably be used in every battle by both sides, as they just replace a single AD of an already interceptable weapon with a more deadly weapon. I'd rather see the cylons more able/willing to commit nuclear reasorces than the clonials. Also i'd like the ability to take a nuke heavy force or a primarily nuke free force.

 

[Alexb83]

Well, the idea with the nukes in my suggestion was that you would set arbitrary limits on the nukes for any given ship class - the Galactica would obviously be limited to 5 (Acropolis maybe more). And in any campaign game, you would not refresh them. When deployed on raiders or Raptors, they permanently replace the missiles for that game - since they are limited payload. So put one on a Raptor, and it's down by 1AD throughout the game. It simply gets a 1 shot nuke to use if it gets the chance... (IMO it allows for much more tactical use of fighters by the Colonials).

However, in normal engagements, we're hardly following the storyline of the series, and so ships should be represented at full strength. The fact that even a ship going into mothballs still had 'only 6 nukes' onboard shows that the Colonials did use them, and presumably in amounts just as large as the Cylons.

Also, the Cylons hardly use them as throwaway weapons - Galactica gets hit by 1 of 2 nukes carried by a Raider. Pegasus, in a relatively drawn out battle, only takes 3 nuke hits (The Captain's Hand). We don't see the Cylons use nukes in the Resurrection Ship battle.

Their main anti-battlestar tactic always struck me as boarding the ship during a massed raider attack, and using Centurions to destroy it from within (just look at the no. of heavy raiders sent against Galactica which Sharon disables).

 

[captainsmirk]

Well those Heavy Raiders do carry a lot of missiles as well, so perhaps they were there for that...

We only see one Heavy Raider used for boarding, and that used a hardly practical method of getting on board (admittedly it had been damaged).


Nick

 

[Alexb83]

I'd say that a ramming effort is highly practical - you expect them to pull alongside and dock? They'd crash into the flight pods or docking bays, and charge through the ship, before venting the atmo. They strike me as troop carriers designed pretty much explicitly for boarding actions (it may be better to make them into breaching pod esque flights)

I don't think heavy raiders are shown to use missiles in the show (yet) - only their rapid firing autocannons.

But yeah - give a battlestar 12 or so nukes. It can retain 6 or so for itsself to fire out at really long ranges, and slip a few into raptor gunships or vipers, and have them pop off a few nukes... having these remote launched nukes means that the Cylons may have to spend more raiders countering vipers (and vice-versa) leaving the cap ships to duke it out.
It'd definately make things more interesting when the raptors edging closer to your basestar behind your raider screen suddenly trigger radiological alarms up the wazoo...

 

[captainsmirk]

Well it just on a fully active battlestar they'd have to crash into the docking bays, as crashing into the flight pod would cause damage but likely result in the destruction of the raider and its cargo...

On an active flight pod the docking bay is depressurized which whilst not a problem in itself for the Centurions they would be sealed access into the rest of the ship which they'd have to get throug. Although if they blew their way in that would depressurized part of the ship anyway so perhaps it would work.

I think the example they showed in the show was easy for the Cylon as the pod they crashed into was set up for easy access into the rest of the ship. The other pod would have airlocks and one would expect guards to fight through first. Still I guess much easier than trying to dock...


Nick

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I'd say that a ramming effort is highly practical - you expect them to pull alongside and dock? They'd crash into the flight pods or docking bays, and charge through the ship, before venting the atmo. They strike me as troop carriers designed pretty much explicitly for boarding actions (it may be better to make them into breaching pod esque flights)

I don't think heavy raiders are shown to use missiles in the show (yet) - only their rapid firing autocannons.

But yeah - give a battlestar 12 or so nukes. It can retain 6 or so for itsself to fire out at really long ranges, and slip a few into raptor gunships or vipers, and have them pop off a few nukes... having these remote launched nukes means that the Cylons may have to spend more raiders countering vipers (and vice-versa) leaving the cap ships to duke it out.
It'd definately make things more interesting when the raptors edging closer to your basestar behind your raider screen suddenly trigger radiological alarms up the wazoo...

I think for fairness' sake you'd have to declare the nuke-carriers at time of launch. It does show on-screen that nukes are detected pretty early. Hence why the Blackbird can't just carry a nuke and blow the Ressurection Ship out of space. Plus it'd be mighty upsetting to see your Mercury-class Battlestar vaporised by a pair of nukes from Cylon Raiders you didn't notice were carrying nuclear weapons...

Or, rather than time of launch, have the nuclear payload detected at a set distance from any capital ship, giving you enough time to react but still a reasonable chance of carrying a nuke to term, so to speak, and administering it to the enemy...

 

[Court Jester]

Hi guys,

Lots to think about here thanks for the discussion.

Firstly I will weigh in on the Heavy Raider argument...

If you watch the deleted scenes of series two you will see Will (Adama) and Saul. They are discussing their memories of the first Cylon War. The forst ship Sauls was on was called the Brenick, a small ship with a crew of about 75-100 souls. The Cylons boarded her Saul was part of the last stand around the ships magazines where there was bloody close combat, but eventually all the Cylons were destroyed.

Adama then talks about how the Cylons changed their tactics. Instead of heading to the ships magazines they would attempt to turn the ships wepaons on firendly targets as well as venting the ships atmosphere.

This is why Saul knew exactly what the Cylons were doing when they boarded Galactica.

I would say that boarding was an important part of the Cylon battleplan. Heavy Raiders do have a Troops score of 2, maybe give them the "Breaching Pod" or "Shuttle" trait. Also A small entry in the special rules about how tough Centurions are...

As for the Nukes...

Well... this is my take, based on what has been said.

Special Action

Nuclear Attack (once per game): Auto
Target an enem ship that is in range and line of sight of a wepaon system that has the Nuclear Weapon trait. This wepaon is considered to be firing a nuclear salvo and no other weapons may fire this turn.

Place a nuclear salvo token half way between the firing ship and the target ship but do not resolve the attack, continue with the movement phase.

During the attack phase this token can be fired at. All weapon systems require a roll of a 6 to hit and it has a number of damage points equal to the number of AD that the wepon system firing the salvo has. A salvo cannot be engaged in a dogfight. Remove the salvo token if it is reduced to zero damage points.

At the end of the attack phase you reolve the nuclear attack. The nuclear salvo will attack its target with a number of AD equal to its remaining damage points. The attack uses the following traits: Super AP, Quad Damage. In adition roll a D6 for each of the target's special traits, on a 4+ the trait cannot be used during the next turn.

All ships and auxilliary craft within 3" of the target will be attacked by 1AD with the same traits as above.

Now to me this is just far too verbose, so I will be looking to add nothing extra but to streamline it.

Dave.

 

[Alexb83]

Flip back a few pages - recommended a special action required in the turn before the launch (presumably to arm the warhead and get launch permission) - it causes a 'radiological alarm' as in the series, and gives you a turn to respond accordingly to the threat.

 

[cordas]

Great looking adaption, can't wait to get one of my mates over nad have a go at it.

I have one favour to ask, is it possible that you can put a link on your home page to the latest version of the PDF and the counters (well and anything else that crops up). It is extremely frustrating having to search this forum to find the link to the latest version. (Adding this to your work bench would be great as thats the link off your profile here.)

Also are you aware that the 2nd page appears to be in Latin (or something similar), if this is for effect a translation would be great )

One last question how many vipers do you get to a squadron. I also think that the Viper VIIs should maybe be a little better than the II, one extra die of damage from their guns helps but I would think that maybe a little faster of better at dog fighting.

 

[Poi]

The fake latin is a placeholder technique used by typesetters and designers, to help fix layout before text is available.

 

[Court Jester]

I have one favour to ask, is it possible that you can put a link on your home page to the latest version of the PDF and the counters (well and anything else that crops up). It is extremely frustrating having to search this forum to find the link to the latest version. (Adding this to your work bench would be great as thats the link off your profile here.)

I'll see what I can do... :wink:

One last question how many vipers do you get to a squadron.

A squadron is around 20 craft and a wave is around 60-100 craft.

I also think that the Viper VIIs should maybe be a little better than the II, one extra die of damage from their guns helps but I would think that maybe a little faster of better at dog fighting.

I'll take a look at that, if anything Viper II's should only really be on board Galactica after the second Cylon War as all other Vipers on other Battlestars would have been updated.

 

[captainsmirk]

I don't think heavy raiders are shown to use missiles in the show (yet) - only their rapid firing autocannons.

Missed this first time round, but as proof of the fact that they do in the episode where the Chief, Baltar, etc are stuck on Kobol the Centurions are setting up a surface to air missile launcher using the sensors and missiles from their Heavy Raider.

Plus what Cylon ship would (in this series at least) be seen dead without some form of missiles...


Nick

*edit: The episode was Fragged.