Tzarevitch
Mongoose
Target said:
That has been my point about super-charging the tertiaries. The ship ends up looking like a primus.
Tzarevitch
About the Narn...
- Thread starter Jim?
- Start date
That has been my point about super-charging the tertiaries. The ship ends up looking like a primus.
Tzarevitch
AP Twinlinks is about the same as Twinlink DD, & then SAP on the others goes too far & then the interceptors is too much. That ship would absolutely cane a Primus. Centauri initativeis only 1 better than Narn.
The beam & e-mine combo is equal/ & might even be better than the 18" precise fwd beam on the primus.
Just upping the beam to 5ADor 6AD, slow load the e-mines & the light ion cannons range going to 12" is probably enough.
If you went 5AD beam then you might give the pulses range 10" as well.
That would be the equivilent of a Primus, it might even be better depending on the situation. The G'Quan can use it's fighters as interceptors where a primus couldn't due to e-mines.
The beam & e-mine combo is equal/ & might even be better than the 18" precise fwd beam on the primus.
Just upping the beam to 5ADor 6AD, slow load the e-mines & the light ion cannons range going to 12" is probably enough.
If you went 5AD beam then you might give the pulses range 10" as well.
That would be the equivilent of a Primus, it might even be better depending on the situation. The G'Quan can use it's fighters as interceptors where a primus couldn't due to e-mines.
I see no reason to upgrade the beam at all at the end of the day no1 will settle for it being precise, 4AD is decent it needs a secondary gun that's good Not 2 x 8". Taking off lumbing would actually allow it to target things rather than lose it's target every other turn.
In comparison to the primus well it might hammer the Primus and perhapes the Interceptor is going abit over board. BUT It will still get slaughtered by a Liati, If you chose to take a primus that's your choice! You have to compare the narn to more than just the centauri.
In comparison to the primus well it might hammer the Primus and perhapes the Interceptor is going abit over board. BUT It will still get slaughtered by a Liati, If you chose to take a primus that's your choice! You have to compare the narn to more than just the centauri.
Well you do see a G'Quon destroy a Primus so something needs doing because at the moment it'd be the other way round.
I don't see why the Narn should have second rate weapons to anyone. 'The Narn will sell arms to anyone.' We learn that early on. They will buy arms from anyone too we learn that during their problems with the Centari/Shadows. They supply Sheridan with the nukes he hits Zahadoom (which you can see I can't spell) with. They're also supposed to benefit from weapons tech assistance off the ISA, where's the evidence of that?
I don't wanna own a Primus but I'd like the reasult to be in the balance which at the moment it isn't.
Also much of the Narn way of fighting has been shaped by the Centari so why wouldn't there be some similarities?
I don't see why the Narn should have second rate weapons to anyone. 'The Narn will sell arms to anyone.' We learn that early on. They will buy arms from anyone too we learn that during their problems with the Centari/Shadows. They supply Sheridan with the nukes he hits Zahadoom (which you can see I can't spell) with. They're also supposed to benefit from weapons tech assistance off the ISA, where's the evidence of that?
I don't wanna own a Primus but I'd like the reasult to be in the balance which at the moment it isn't.
Also much of the Narn way of fighting has been shaped by the Centari so why wouldn't there be some similarities?
Foxmeister
Mongoose
skavendan said:
Or a Dargan for that matter! I still don't see that a boresighted main weapon is justified in any way, shape, or form for the G'Quan. That should go, if not purely for balance (which would certainly help), to follow canon. The WS was given a forward arc beam so that it could perform as it did on screen - IMHO, any ship that has had screen time deserves the same treatment.
Regards,
Dave
So they'd go out and not buy the best weaponry on offer with all the coercion they're prepared to use to ensure they aren't ripped off.
So they can get them for someone else but not themselves :?: That's just woman logic :roll:
The thread's about G'Quons for a start I've never said there was a problem the the G'Vrahn which lets face it has more of the same guns on a more maneuverable platform the rest of the fleet is slow slow slow. Oh and because it's the one decent ship we have people want to nerf it while telling us the G'quon is ok. :roll:
Not quite sure which one you're replying to there. But generally when people are desperate for weapons they will buy whatever is on offer, and then negotiate the price depending on the quality of the weapons. They wouldn't refuse to buy weapons because they are second-rate. They would just buy them for less money. So purchased weapons could be first-rate or second-rate. Being purchased is no implication that they are high quality. Would you sell your best weapons?Rawwar said:
Thats "race on a budget" logic... besides they do have e-mines of their own.Rawwar said:
You asked where the fruit of the ISA's tech sharing was. I showed you. The G'Quan pre-dates the ISA so you can't expect it to have upgraded weaponry can you? Unless there is going to be yet another variant... and I'm sure the Narn tech boys would rathe be building G'Vrahns than upgraded G'Quans.Rawwar said:
Ok so a real world comparison why did the Americans roll out their Battleships and upgrade all their weaponry up to & including cruise missiles. Because for the $'s it cost them to do that they could have built a brand destroyer or something similar (I've slept since then) basically it was more cost effective to upgrade the Battleships. Ok the Battleships have been Mothballed again but who knows if they'll ever make a return or not??
Why wouldn't the Narn do something similar?
Not more Variants, usable variants
It really comes down to how you want the G'Quan to play, from screen evidence or as part of the playstyle that you want the Narn to have in ACTA.
On screen, the G'Quan is mostly seen using it's beam... but does that mean that the beam's hyper powered, or that it's the weapon system most commonly in range? The G'Quan v. Primus shoot out showed that the ship is capable of up close brawling, too.
If you want the Narn to be a tough, roll with the punches and keep swinging fleet, then they need a brawler in there, somewhere... if that job goes to that's the G'Quan or the Bin'Tak is pretty much up to how you want to make it. Upping the G'Quan's beam, making the E-Mine a Slow Loader and giving it a few more damage really won't turn it into that style of ship... it'll still be a sniper with a weaker than Omega main beam that will sit at the back and require loads of support from other elements in the fleet to prevent it from being outflanked.
The only real options there are the G'Sten and Rongoth/Rothan, which are both sub-par choices for their PL, the G'Karith or the T'Loth (which isn't as effective at the job as an EA Nova/Olympus or Artemis). Frazis aren't able to reliably deal with a ship that has good AF, and so can't hold the flanks either.
Maybe changing the G'Quonth completely to a Battle Level brawler, or introducing a Raid Level G'Quan varient without the main beam/e-mine but with range 12 burst beams in each arc (say 2 dice each) would do it.
Thing is, no matter what you do at 5 Raid it's not going to be easy to fit a G'Quan and anti-flanking cover in there... and to make it a ship that punches it's weight a 5 dice beam and S/L E-mines would probably be OK if it had good support, but the ships that you can choose for the job really aren't up to it.
Let's look at the Narn list, and split it into Good/Average/Bad for a second (obviously, this is only my opinion based on stats and performance at their role in the fleet compared to other races' ships at the same job):
Now, that doesn't look that bad at first glance, however, the "good" stuff is at either high PL's, or is extremely specialized. Most of the OK stuff needs lots of support, and most of the stuff you'd want to be doing the supporting is in the Bad or Ugly categories.
Let's compare with the Centauri, for a second...
As you can see... in my opinion, the Centauri list is a lot better balanced than the Narn one. Ideally, all ships would be in the OK bracket for every race, but going to Good/Bad is OK. Most of the Good/OK Centauri ships are Patrol, Skirmish, Raid or Battle, and they're not great at War.
Given that the majority of games are played at 5 Raid, that is not a problem for them. Also, their lack of boresights and good initiative mean that their ships can effectively operate without much support and still be expected to perform reasonably well.
I don't think the Narn fleet plays like anything other than a flimsy EA fleet with E-Mines and bad secondaries... don't think PnP can really fix the entire fleet, so *overgunning* the G'Quan slightly may be the way forward for now... not breaking it, but making it *good* rather than *Average* if you catch my meaning?
On screen, the G'Quan is mostly seen using it's beam... but does that mean that the beam's hyper powered, or that it's the weapon system most commonly in range? The G'Quan v. Primus shoot out showed that the ship is capable of up close brawling, too.
If you want the Narn to be a tough, roll with the punches and keep swinging fleet, then they need a brawler in there, somewhere... if that job goes to that's the G'Quan or the Bin'Tak is pretty much up to how you want to make it. Upping the G'Quan's beam, making the E-Mine a Slow Loader and giving it a few more damage really won't turn it into that style of ship... it'll still be a sniper with a weaker than Omega main beam that will sit at the back and require loads of support from other elements in the fleet to prevent it from being outflanked.
The only real options there are the G'Sten and Rongoth/Rothan, which are both sub-par choices for their PL, the G'Karith or the T'Loth (which isn't as effective at the job as an EA Nova/Olympus or Artemis). Frazis aren't able to reliably deal with a ship that has good AF, and so can't hold the flanks either.
Maybe changing the G'Quonth completely to a Battle Level brawler, or introducing a Raid Level G'Quan varient without the main beam/e-mine but with range 12 burst beams in each arc (say 2 dice each) would do it.
Thing is, no matter what you do at 5 Raid it's not going to be easy to fit a G'Quan and anti-flanking cover in there... and to make it a ship that punches it's weight a 5 dice beam and S/L E-mines would probably be OK if it had good support, but the ships that you can choose for the job really aren't up to it.
Let's look at the Narn list, and split it into Good/Average/Bad for a second (obviously, this is only my opinion based on stats and performance at their role in the fleet compared to other races' ships at the same job):
Code:
Too Good Good OK Bad Ugly
G'Vrahn Ka'Bin'Tak Var'Nic G'Quan G'Sten
Dag'Kar Bin'Tak G'Tal Rothan
Thentus Ka'Tan T'Rann
Ka'Toc Rongoth Sho'Kos
G'Lan T'Rakk G'Quonth
G'Karith T'Loth Gorith
Sho'Kar Frazi
Sho'KovNow, that doesn't look that bad at first glance, however, the "good" stuff is at either high PL's, or is extremely specialized. Most of the OK stuff needs lots of support, and most of the stuff you'd want to be doing the supporting is in the Bad or Ugly categories.
Let's compare with the Centauri, for a second...
Code:
Too Good Good OK Bad Ugly
Demos Sulust Elutarian Altarian
Darkner Primus Octurion
Vorchan Secondus Magnus
Liati Dargan Morgrath*
Kutai Maximus
Haven Corvan
Rutarian Adira
Balvarin
Rasik
Sentri
*unless hyperspace is allowed, then it goes to goodAs you can see... in my opinion, the Centauri list is a lot better balanced than the Narn one. Ideally, all ships would be in the OK bracket for every race, but going to Good/Bad is OK. Most of the Good/OK Centauri ships are Patrol, Skirmish, Raid or Battle, and they're not great at War.
Given that the majority of games are played at 5 Raid, that is not a problem for them. Also, their lack of boresights and good initiative mean that their ships can effectively operate without much support and still be expected to perform reasonably well.
I don't think the Narn fleet plays like anything other than a flimsy EA fleet with E-Mines and bad secondaries... don't think PnP can really fix the entire fleet, so *overgunning* the G'Quan slightly may be the way forward for now... not breaking it, but making it *good* rather than *Average* if you catch my meaning?
skavendan said:
not fire in a F arc - the argument is perform as on screen - ie nipping around shooting ships with its beam. I am not personally in favour of a BS beam for it - but then I am not fond of that mechanism and don't use fleets with it in the main -
If there was a follow target SA it would help the game in total.
Nope.
Good horror is based on an element of the real world ie something that will actually cause fear, Rats for instance. The same goes for Fantasy LOTR's & Sci Fi. Babylon 5 got the fan base it did because of the characters and because you could identify with them. It also didn't do the techno nerb babble of, 'we can fix everything with a replicator.'
So what do you think fiction of any kind is based on & if it's so alien how do we as humans identify with it?
Hmm, I've never seen any real-world evidence of a guy with knives for fingers invading people's dreams. Or a guy in a hockey mask coming back from the dead under a lake. Or a phone call telling you that you'll die in 7 days. Or vampires, werewolves, ghosts, zombies, witches, supernatural forces of evil, evil killer clowns, cybermen, daleks, reavers or psycho ex-girlfriends (well OK I've head of a few of that last one).Rawwar said:
I think the word you look for is based which is what I said not evidence.
What do you think a werewolf is actually based on then? And it's playing on our fear of and ancient rivalry with wolves as top predators.
Ghosts are used as an explanation for all sorts of things we don't understand, noises, things we imagine we saw etc.
I've forgotten the roots of Vampires but I no doubt will watch/or read something about their origins again before I die.
Witches a long used excuse by religion to do away with non believers, were they really witches? Maybe it's attributable to psycho ex-girlfriends :lol:
Knives for fingers, seem a bit like claws to me, bears & big cats have such things I believe. Dreams bit bogey man or sandman if your American possibly?
The hockey mask just looks evil so helps with the rest.
Clowns were representations of bad/evil beings once upon a time, Stephen King just brought it back up to date.
I'll leave the Cybermen, Daleks one to Skavendan cos he's a Doctor Who nerd & I'm not.
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