Ability Throws

[Supplement Four]

Well, I got the Second Edition rule book, on the advice of those here. And, I'm starting to read.

First, let me say, that I am not a fan of the d20 system. Never have been. It's too "clunky" and "crunchy". Too many modifiers. Too much "wargame" when "roll-n-go" is all you need.

So...I don't play any other d20 games (except D&D...and my last at-bat with that game was with AD&D 2nd Ed.)

But....




I can't put into words how impressed I am so far with this book. The authors really make the d20 system work (and work well) in the Conan environment. It's amazing. I love it (as much as I've read so far).

All these little nit-picks I've had with the d20 system over the years seem to have been addressed with this rule book. I'm reading, shaking my head, nodding, "Yeah. Yep. That's how I would have done it if I had written this book...Oh? Wow. Handn't thought of that....good move. Yeah...yeah. Excellent choice."

I really haven't found anything yet that needs house ruling. I'm still reading, and I've got a lot to go. But, so far, I'm loving this game.

"Brilliant" is the term I'm using to describe Mongoose's efforts in writing this book. It's simply brilliant.

And, as some of you may know from reading my posts in other forums, I don't use that term to describe too many rpgs I come across.

Conan just "feels" like it was done "right".

I'm extremely happy with it.







Which brings me to the ability throws. As I read, I'm considering my upcoming game. I like a "more realistic" vibe to my Hyborean fantasy world.

I'm thinking of allowing ability throws to be thrown thusly:

1. Player can choose to throw 4D6, dropping lowest D6, but abilities are thrown in order. There will be no arranging of stats.

2. Player can arrange stats to taste, but only 3D6 can be thrown.



Think it's too harsh? Just right for the "feel" I'm going for? Looking for comment from experienced Conan GMs.

 

[Strom]

Hello S4,

Option 1 is basically the Standard Generation Method listed in the book. Your second option is a harsh variant of the Standard Generation - lower scores. We love to use the Heroic Generation Method. Personally I feel the Heroic Method perfectly fits the concept of the Conan RPG based on Howard's stories and starts the characters off in a Conanic fashion - the stars in an episodic sword & sorcery adventure!

 

[Thorvang]

Hello S4,

Option 1 is basically the Standard Generation Method listed in the book. Your second option is a harsh variant of the Standard Generation - lower scores. We love to use the Heroic Generation Method. Personally I feel the Heroic Method perfectly fits the concept of the Conan RPG based on Howard's stories and starts the characters off in a Conanic fashion - the stars in an episodic sword & sorcery adventure!

I agree with Strom heartily here. Heroic characters aren't only more fun to play, they're also a necessity for survival in the typical Hyborian-age adventure! It's a heluva gritty place, and Conan RPG combat is harsh and nasty, so Method 2 could result in a lot of TPK's early on. I personally have players roll 4d6, re-roll '1' results, then drop the lowest die, and assign their scores as they desire. I have them choose their characters race before rolling for abilities to assist in their choices. What can I say-- I'm a nice GM like that!!

 

[Supplement Four]

What I dislike about arrange to taste methods, though, is that there is invariably a stat that is used as a "throw off" stat.

Back when we used to arrange to taste with D&D, it was also CHR that got the lowest score rolled (barring some circumstance that required a high CHR, such as a particular class requirement that the player wanted to play).

Thus, my idea was to go with the book as written, without arrange to tast (as suggested in the rule book). But, if a player wanted to arrange to taste, he could do so, but only got to roll 3D6.

The player gains "arrange to taste" but loses "roll 4D6, drop lowest".



Still thinking...

 

[Hervé]

As you said, D20 is quite technical and wargame like. Want it or not the system will had a big impact on your campaign. Basically it's D&D without all this mudane magic and wondrous items, so your party will have to be a bit stronger than the average D&D party in order to survive the harshness of the Hyborian World. Remember there's no magical healing or silly dungeonesque stuff like this. That's why I 'll advice to be kind on character generation. The Hyborian World is no place for wimps!

I'm glad you find the game "brilliant", but you'll discover the drawbacks of the system very soon. Conan is mostly is "man vs. man" game where "D&D is more "man (or semi!) vs. monster". It implies you'll spend a lot of time (and often more than that!) building NPCs using this lousy D20 system when you would just have picked a monster from one of the many MMs in D&D...
Actually it takes me more time to build up NPCs than to write my adventures.
That's a major flaw to me.

 

[flatscan]

I'm glad you find the game "brilliant", but you'll discover the drawbacks of the system very soon. Conan is mostly is "man vs. man" game where "D&D is more "man (or semi!) vs. monster". It implies you'll spend a lot of time (and often more than that!) building NPCs using this lousy D20 system when you would just have picked a monster from one of the many MMs in D&D...
Actually it takes me more time to build up NPCs than to write my adventures.
That's a major flaw to me.

Yeah, I really wish Mongoose would make an NPC book. A book sort of like the one in the Shadizar boxed set that is full of NPC stats from a variety of classes at different levels. I'm honestly nervous about when my players get to 10th level and I have to make challenging NPCs for them to encounter.

As to Character generation, I played with a GM who wanted all the harshness of 1e D&D on character creation. He did the 3d6 straight up method and we all ended up with characters that were lame and not very effective. Hervé is right on when he says this is a bad move and his reasoning is correct (not much magical healing, or magical items to help PCs out). The PCs are supposed to have decent stats. Otherwise, they're not going to fare very well against a man-ape. Look at Conan's stats at 1st to 3rd level. Your PCs' stats should be comparable or you're not playing Conan in the spirit intended by the book. I myself had my players use the heroic method as well. We've been playing for almost 2 years now and I can tell you with no lie that it was the right move for my group. I can understand some frustration about having a "dump" stat, but even in your proposed 3d6 method, you're going to get that. But your players will still be lame compared to the rest of their Hyborian age contemporaries. They'll be lame and still have a low Charisma.

 

[Supplement Four]

I appreciate all the replies. And, what has happened is that you've convinced me that option number 2 above is something I shouldn't offer (the 3D6 arrange to taste).

I don't have a problem using heroic characters in a Heroic Fantasy game. But, that dump stat still bugs me. I've never liked that.

I think I'll go with the main rule book's suggested 4D6, drop lowest D6, but no arrange to taste. You get what you roll. (Option #1 above).

 

[flatscan]

I appreciate all the replies. And, what has happened is that you've convinced me that option number 2 above is something I shouldn't offer (the 3D6 arrange to taste).

I don't have a problem using heroic characters in a Heroic Fantasy game. But, that dump stat still bugs me. I've never liked that.

I think I'll go with the main rule book's suggested 4D6, drop lowest D6, but no arrange to taste. You get what you roll. (Option #1 above).

Well, keep in mind this will prevent your players from getting characters they want to play and leaves it to chance to decide what type of character they will get. It's very old school D&D in this way, but I wouldn't enjoy playing in a game where I had a concept to play a badass Nordheimer barbarian, but rolled an 11 on Strength, and a 17 on Intelligence. It's your game, so your choice of course but I prefer a dump stat if it allows my players to bring their character concept "to life" as opposed to blindly leaving it to luck.

 

[Thorvang]

I appreciate all the replies. And, what has happened is that you've convinced me that option number 2 above is something I shouldn't offer (the 3D6 arrange to taste).

I don't have a problem using heroic characters in a Heroic Fantasy game. But, that dump stat still bugs me. I've never liked that.

I think I'll go with the main rule book's suggested 4D6, drop lowest D6, but no arrange to taste. You get what you roll. (Option #1 above).

I think you've made a good compromise, but keep us posted as to how the characters do once they start adventuring. I understand your desire for gritty realism, but I've got a feeling that you'll find the grittiness of Hyboria a bit much for 'average joe' characters when the steel starts flying! As Herve said, there are no healing potions or helpful clerics here, so death in combat is a much more real and pressing issue in Conan! But once again, keep us posted, have fun, and good luck!
May the Sons of Aryas watch over your brave adventurers....They'll need it! :twisted:

 

[rabindranath72]

The way to mitigate the "dump stat" syndrome is to make all of them relevant for saving throws.
You could the the following (borrowed from 4e)

Fort save (Str or Con bonus)
Will save (Wis or Cha bonus)
Ref save (Int or Dex bonus)

 

[flatscan]

The way to mitigate the "dump stat" syndrome is to make all of them relevant for saving throws.
You could the the following (borrowed from 4e)

Fort save (Str or Con bonus)
Will save (Wis or Cha bonus)
Ref save (Int or Dex bonus)

I don't think that would mitigate the dump stat. If I can have either Wisdom or Charisma for a Will save, I would choose whichever would give me the best bonus and the dump stat is still a dump stat. Unless you're suggesting the GM determine that all Will saves are based off Charisma in order to encourage people taking it. But a GM would have to be very careful on applying this logic. Players tend to resent games where a GM heavy-handedly handicaps character stats. If its not done for a balance issue, it probably shouldn't be done at all, IMHO.

 

[Strom]

Yeah, I really wish Mongoose would make an NPC book. A book sort of like the one in the Shadizar boxed set that is full of NPC stats from a variety of classes at different levels. I'm honestly nervous about when my players get to 10th level and I have to make challenging NPCs for them to encounter.

When the game was first introduced Mongoose had some pre-generated NPC's available for download. Then one of the members - Mayhem - created a spreadsheet with numerous NPC's - I downloaded and printed them out for my Conan binder. I've used them ever since and NPC creation hasn't been a problem. Seriously, the story should come first and with a basic framework the NPC should just play itself. Plus, if you just search NPC on this forum there are numerous NPCs to use. Mongoose should put those NPCs back up. I would share my file but my harddrive crashed and all I have are the hard copies. Here's Mayhem's topic, the links do not work anymore:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5831

Maybe if someone knows Mayhem, he can make them available again.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, keep in mind this will prevent your players from getting characters they want to play and leaves it to chance to decide what type of character they will get.

My players are excellent role players. We're all mature gamers, and we've been playing together for 20+ years. RL gets in the way of our gaming, so we actually cherish the times we get to play (which is about once a month when we're running a game).

We're also used to story-based games. It wouldn't be unusual for me (always the GM) to say, "OK, we're running a Conan game, and all characters are going to be Zamorans. No characters allowed who aren't easily associated with Zamora."

That, right there, precludes some character types. The Vanir Barbarian would not have a place in this game, and as such, wouldn't be an option at character creation time.

Another thing my group has learned to love over the years is "discovering" a character rather than "making" a character. We're long time Traveller fans, and we absolutely love the Classic Traveller character generation method (and we despise the new Mongoose arrange-to-taste method).

We used to approach games as most gamers do. Decide on what you want to play, then create that type of character. What we've found is that we've had many more memorable characters in our games when that method wasn't used, and the "discover" method was used instead.

Create-To-Tastes typically delivers the bad-ass Mage, protected by another player's bad-ass Warrior, who's sidekick is the bad-ass Thief...and so on. Everybody has low CHR, btw.

With "discover" characters, the player has to deal with a characters disadvantages--and sometimes turn them into advantages. I've noticed the background stories are deeper and much more interesting when you "discover" a character rather than when you "create" one. There seems to be more depths, more creativity, more interesting results, which makes the game--the story we're telling--more "fun" than if we do it the "create" way.

For example, let's say a player is interested in playing a Soldier, but he rolls rather low on STR, DEX and CON. And, his WIS, INT, and CHR throws are fairly high.

Well, the player still has the opportunity to create a different type of character, based on his throws, but let's say the player really wants to play a Soldier. Fine. He does that. And, the backstory becomes this incredible character-building about how this more "heady" surf was conscripted into the Brythunian Guard, torn away from his home at age 13. Up through the ranks, the other irregulars made fun of him. And one night, with no women around, one of the soldiers attempted to rape him.

This heightened the boy's resolve, so-to-speak, to become proficient with weapons...to become a soldier.

And, as he began to excel, he came to the sargent's attention. "The boy is scrawny and small of limb, but he's got fire in his belly, that one. He's a determined bugger. And, that type of fire can be honed."

(Don't forget that the Conan rpg allows stat bonuses starting at 4th level.)

The boy eventually becomes the unit clerk. His intelligence has been recognized, and he knows his letters. But, after the word work is accomplished for the day, we see the boy, after hours, doing drill, become better with his blades.

And one late night, the boy sneaks into the booze-snore infested tent of the soldier that attempted to take his boyhood from him and slices the man's throat.

Since then, the boy has been on the run. A deserter from the Brythunian City State. When he meets the other player characters....



You see...I'm not saying that I don't get that type of interesting story and character building when a pre-conceived character is created. But, on average, I do see more creative and interesting stories like this when we use the "discover" character creation method.

I think it has to do with "creating" around obstacles. That's where the drama comes from.

This has started with Classic Traveller, and we've ported the idea to other games as well--always with fantastic results.

I've even brought new players into our fold who were resistant to the idea at first. And, I find them to dislike the "discover" method until they create their first exceptionally cool "discover" character. Then, it all changes. It's like I opened their eyes for the first time and showed them something new about role playing.


That's a long winded answer, but it's not an easy thing describing what our group has found with character discovery vs. character creation. It's a lot...and it's too good a thing to lose and have to go back to more generic: My guy's a red-haired Vanir barbarian, uncomfortable with the ways of Hyboria, but, like Conan, has been struck with wanderlust and is traveling through Hyboria when he meets the other PCs.

That's not a bad way to start off a game. I don't mean to imply that it is. But, I'd much rather have the deep, interesting character I describe above rather than the more generic, we've-seen-it-before feeling I get with the second character.

So...the short answer to why I promote character "discovery" instead of allowing free-for-all character "creation"...is that I've learned, over the years, that character discovery is most likely to result in interesting, memorable characters that my gaming group will be talking about for years to come.

You've read this post. Which character is more "alive" in your thoughts? The nearly raped boy? Or, the standard Vanir warrior who's far from home?

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm glad you find the game "brilliant", but you'll discover the drawbacks of the system very soon. Conan is mostly is "man vs. man" game where "D&D is more "man (or semi!) vs. monster". It implies you'll spend a lot of time (and often more than that!) building NPCs using this lousy D20 system when you would just have picked a monster from one of the many MMs in D&D...
Actually it takes me more time to build up NPCs than to write my adventures.
That's a major flaw to me.

I do see that building NPCs is a major flaw...but it's a major flaw of the d20 system (not the Conan interpretation of the d20 system...which is what I think is brilliant).

Making NPCs has always been a pain in the arse with the d20 system. It was back in my AD&D and AD&D 2E days, and it is, apparently, in this Conan d20 version.

It's a lot for the GM to keep up with. Not only does the GM have to create details NPCs from time to time (which can be extremely time consuming), but he also has to be familiar with how that NPC would play his feats and skills and combat maneuvers. Which each NPC being different, and possibly multi-classed...that's a lot of ask of the GM.

I definitely agree. This is a major detraction of the system. But, it doesn't stop the Conan rpg from being brilliant. It's the d20 system (which isn't so brilliant).







Now, I will say something about the d20 system that is very attractive. One of the things, whether gamers realize it or not, that makes the d20 system popular is its mechanics. The player plays his character, gets some XP, then goes up a level and is rewarded with all sorts of toys. He gets more hit points, better modifiers, more feats, more skills, more, more, more.

So...that's fun for a player. Play. Build. Get goodies. Play. Get more goodies. Play. Get even more goodies.

The same thing that makes the d20 system such a burden on the GM (all the detail in the way of multi-classing, feats, combat maneuvers, etc) is the excact same thing that keeps many players so interested in playing their characters.



As for me, I plan on using published adventures, tweaked to my taste. So, I'm hoping my time spent in NPC creation will be kept to a minimum (as the NPCs should be all stated in whatever published adventure I decide to run).

 

[quigs]

The topic of NPC generation is one that I will definately agree on when it comes to the d20 system being time-consuming.

4E is better in this regard, but the changes they made can basically be summed up with a few pointers.

I gotta put my money on Savage Worlds though. The rules are super simple, stat blocks take up only a few lines, and there are lots of PDF's out there with samples in them already, of which I happen to have. These are even more simple than 4E, but not by much. My standpoint is that the crunch of the NPC should support the fluff, but the details you need should be what you need to run him in combat, or a social situation.

 

[Supplement Four]

The topic of NPC generation is one that I will definately agree on when it comes to the d20 system being time-consuming.

Yep. The same detail that makes d20 characters interesting and fun to play mechanically is also the detail that devours a GM's plan time.

I don't have a lot of time to play games. What time I do have, I want to spend playing. I try to minimize prep time where-ever possible.

Someone noted that a book listing ready-made NPCs for Conan might be a good idea. I'll second that idea.

If I saw a Conan supplement that had, say, 100 fully fleshed out NPCs in it, complete with stats, and that's all the book offered...heck yeah, I'd buy it.

4E is better in this regard, but the changes they made can basically be summed up with a few pointers.

I have no plans on playing 4E. The only reason I'm playing d20 now (haven't in years) is because I'm a Conan fan, and I'm impressed with this game line (think Mongoose is doing a superb job on the line).

Do tell, though, about those pointers.

I gotta put my money on Savage Worlds though. The rules are super simple, stat blocks take up only a few lines, and there are lots of PDF's out there with samples in them already, of which I happen to have.

You want simple?

Try my favorite game of all time: Classic Traveller. Roll 2D6 six times, and you've got a character. Need a skill? No problem, roll 1D -3 for the character's skill level (50% chance the character doesn't have the skill or is at Level-0).

Boom. All done.

A GM can do it on the spot during a game and never miss a beat.

CT is a hell of a game. No wonder it's still the most popular version of Traveller--even after 30 years.

 

[Supplement Four]

The way to mitigate the "dump stat" syndrome is to make all of them relevant for saving throws.
You could the the following (borrowed from 4e)

Fort save (Str or Con bonus)
Will save (Wis or Cha bonus)
Ref save (Int or Dex bonus)

This is a good thought...you're thinking along the right lines. But, I don't think what you've proposed elminiates the dump stat syndrome.

You are correct in saying that the way to eliminate a dump stat with an arrange-to-taste system is to make all the stat equally relevant to the player.

This just isn't the case, at least with d20 Conan.

But...

But...

I do have a thought on how to make the arrange-to-taste system work with Conan d20.

I'll call it: Conan 321. And, I think it deserves it's own thread. So, I'll go start one and continue the discussion there.

 

[flatscan]

You've read this post. Which character is more "alive" in your thoughts? The nearly raped boy? Or, the standard Vanir warrior who's far from home?

If that fits your groups play style better, then be my guest. But the nearly raped boy will never be very good at being a Soldier with low Str, Dex, Con (and will likely not survive past first or second level, Fate Points aside). Sure, he gets ability increases if he survives to 4th level, but so does everybody else. All that back story is fine, but I wouldn't want to play in a game that handicapped my access and use of the awesome Feats and Combat maneuvers in this game. Or that didn't allow me to play a larger than life hero like Conan.

My players are big time REH fans, as am I. We love the Conan stories, the fast-paced action, the steel sparking, the foul sorcerous menace thick in the air. You can argue back-story all you want, but REH left the details of Conan himself sketchy. We know next to nothing about his childhood, other than it was spent in Cimmeria. A couple choice details and he's off adventuring in Zamora. Howard made Conan exactly as he wanted him. All my players bring that to the table, and when we play we bring those stories we love to life (in our heads at least). And they're discovering their characters too, just as REH discovered and developed Conan. Their actions and reactions. The conflicts with Codes of Honor and characters without. Every encounter further develops those characters. And they guide their characters based on the original concept, just as Howard guided Conan through the various states of his career.

You mentioned the cliche of Conan's wanderlust being his drive to adventure. But that's all REH needed to create one of the most beloved sword & sorcery characters of all time. And using REH as our model, my players have enjoyed playing for two years straight!

Anyhow, I can't agree that random luck is better for this type of game, or many other genres that I enjoy playing. Like I said before, if it works for your group, go with that. But you asked for advice, so there it is.

 

[rabindranath72]

The way to mitigate the "dump stat" syndrome is to make all of them relevant for saving throws.
You could the the following (borrowed from 4e)

Fort save (Str or Con bonus)
Will save (Wis or Cha bonus)
Ref save (Int or Dex bonus)

I don't think that would mitigate the dump stat. If I can have either Wisdom or Charisma for a Will save, I would choose whichever would give me the best bonus and the dump stat is still a dump stat. Unless you're suggesting the GM determine that all Will saves are based off Charisma in order to encourage people taking it. But a GM would have to be very careful on applying this logic. Players tend to resent games where a GM heavy-handedly handicaps character stats. If its not done for a balance issue, it probably shouldn't be done at all, IMHO.

Well, compared to the usual system where the highest scores are put into Con, Wis and Dex, this IS a better system. It gives you the choice of having good saves AND possibly having scores which work with the skills one wants. Now, if I want a character who favors having Charisma skills, I can "dump" Wis, since Charisma also can give a boon to Saves.

 

[Supplement Four]

You mentioned the cliche of Conan's wanderlust being his drive to adventure. But that's all REH needed to create one of the most beloved sword & sorcery characters of all time. And using REH as our model, my players have enjoyed playing for two years straight!

Anyhow, I can't agree that random luck is better for this type of game, or many other genres that I enjoy playing. Like I said before, if it works for your group, go with that. But you asked for advice, so there it is.

You may be reading my words as panning your play style. I want to be clear that I had no intent to come across that way at all.

I was just explaining the way we play (not putting the way you play down). The idea is to have fun and enjoy gaming in Howard's universe. No matter how that's accomplished, the goal is the same.

And, I do appreciate your advice. I've read every word you've written in this thread.

I disagree, though, that a Soldier with low DEX, CON, and STR scores is un-playable and "won't survive long". Handicapped? Yes. But, unplayable? Not on your life. I've got some players who would turn this guy into a very memorable, long lasting character--because the character was handicapped.

Plus, the obstacles the group goes up against are managed by the GM. Knowing more "average" people are in the party, the GM can control the obstacles accordingly.

I'm all for heroic characters for this heroic setting, though. I'm not keen on the dump stat, but I'm all for arrange-to-taste if it precludes a dump stat. I think I've come up with a solution to this problem in the Conan 321 thread.