A Universe Of Non-Swimmers ?

[rust]

Generic doesn't mean covering every possible concept, but merely providing a basic framework to add in setting specific concepts.

While I agree with the general idea, I still think that swimming is such a
basic activity, and water worlds are so common in all Traveller universes
I know, that there is a gap in the basic framework you mentioned.
Not an important gap, of course, but a completely unnecessary one. Re-
member, even CT had several water vehicles on its basic equipment list.

 

[LotusBlossom]

Surely swimming would be hugely affected by the gravity, chemical make-up of the water, atmospherics and other factors, to the point that swimming on one world would be quite different to that on others. In fact, might it not need such different techniques that only some basic part of your swimming technique would actually apply anyway.

Just thinking about Earth's Dead Sea compared to the North Atlantic. Perhaps a trivial example, but perhaps when you start comparing Earth's swimming conditions to the bizarre "norms" that may be found on other worlds....I can easily imagine swimming skills would be barely transferrable.

 

[rust]

In my setting I handle such differences with modifiers on the basic Swim
skill, I think this is the easiest way to deal with them.

 

[Shiloh]

Surely swimming would be hugely affected by the gravity, chemical make-up of the water, atmospherics and other factors, to the point that swimming on one world would be quite different to that on others. In fact, might it not need such different techniques that only some basic part of your swimming technique would actually apply anyway.

I think "swimming" in a medium that is different enough that your man Phelps wouldn't have a huge advantage over average old me, would probably require a "SCUBA" or "Hostile Environment Maneuvering" specialty. Not to mention special gear.

 

[Paladin]

How many people have ever used Swimming in their campaigns?

Athletics (Coordination) is good enough for me. A new specialization of Athletics (Swimming) would be acceptable but just doesn't seem like a critical enough skill IMO.

 

[Shiloh]

How many people have ever used Swimming in their campaigns?

I have been in anumber of situations in games where swimming skill became critical and failures of swimming rolls led to deaths of characters, NPC and PC. There are a lot of environments in Traveller where swimming comes in handy: sewers and other flooded tunnels; crossing water obstacles in the wilderness; diving for gear/booty after some incident...

Athletics (Coordination) is good enough for me. A new specialization of Athletics (Swimming) would be acceptable but just doesn't seem like a critical enough skill IMO.

I wouldn't count "Coordination" as particularly helping with swimming. You have to practice a lot at *swimming* to get significantly better at it and anyone with an Athletics skill will be *able* to swim.

 

[dmccoy1693]

How many people have ever used Swimming in their campaigns?

Athletics (Coordination) is good enough for me. A new specialization of Athletics (Swimming) would be acceptable but just doesn't seem like a critical enough skill IMO.

My feelings exactly. Hell, I'm coming off of a a year and a half of D&D and two years of Exalted. I never used swimming once in those games (despite D&D having its own swim skill. And that's without simple tech to quickly get across the river without a bridge. In traveller, I could use a personal jet pack, sub, star ship, grav vehicle, a portable bridge, hoverboard, and several other ways to cross that same river.

Regardless of how many water worlds there are, swimming to me doesn't seem critical enough to warrent its own skill. A new specialization of athletics, sure but not a stand alone skill.

 

[Shiloh]

...a year and a half of D&D and two years of Exalted. I never used swimming once...

Pooh say I to the lack of environmental challenges

... that's without simple tech to quickly get across the river without a bridge. In traveller, I could use a personal jet pack, sub, star ship, grav vehicle, a portable bridge, hoverboard, and several other ways to cross that same river.

IF you were crossing river, and IF you had those things.

...swimming to me doesn't seem critical enough to warrent its own skill. A new specialization of athletics, sure but not a stand alone skill.

Really, specialisations are "stand alone skills" that let you default to them for a reduced penalty for other skills in a similar field. Swimming *is* critical, in that not being able to do it when required is likely to kill you dead. Much more critical than, say Admin, or even Gun Combat (you can hide in a firefight; you can't hide from water too deep to stand in...).

Still, a specialisation of Athletics gives a decent mechanism for basic swimming skills to be relatively widespread.

Edit: It's also worth bearing in mind that a lot of people who you wouldn't think have Athletics-0 (or Athletics ([spec])-n (where n>0)) can swim in a pool, but might struggle to stay in control/on the surface in surf or rushing water, and might be severely reluctant to submerge themselves for whatever purpose, so a treatment of swimming as an Athletics spec with everyone else rolling at -3 unless they've elected to be non-swimmers makes a deal of sense, even if you look at modern first world proportions of ability to swim and it looks like pretty much any adventurer probably could.

 

[far-trader]

To those saying you never need swimming because you have tech to deal with it let me ask why you need Zero-G? Wouldn't everyone be more comfortable just going where the sidewalks are all set at 1G artificial gravity or staying in their ship? Why would anyone ever learn Zero-G skills? It's not like you'll ever need it. When was the last time you used it in a game?

(today's sarcasm colour is olive )

 

[far-trader]

...a year and a half of D&D and two years of Exalted. I never used swimming once...

Pooh say I to the lack of environmental challenges

Ditto that Did they never travel cross country? Was it a desert campaign? Was it maybe DD&D (Dune Dungeons and Dragons, er, Sandworms)?

Of course some groups just like the dungeon delving and gloss over the rest, that's cool too, but doesn't mean everyone does and that it negates the value of including the rule in a game that's supposed to be wide based for scenarios.

Our D&D always had environmental obstacles. Water (swimming or diving), Heights (climbing), Forests (direction tracking). Even sticking to the roads was no guarantee of simple travel. And most dungeons featured water hazards (underground rivers, pools, or simply flooded areas) and the other usual natural obstacles.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Just thinking about Earth's Dead Sea compared to the North Atlantic. Perhaps a trivial example, but perhaps when you start comparing Earth's swimming conditions to the bizarre "norms" that may be found on other worlds....I can easily imagine swimming skills would be barely transferrable.

Well it has been proven that swimming in treacle is just as fast as swimming in water, so it looks like swiming ability is tranfserable to different mediums.

People still have to swim in the Dead Sea; it's just that it's harder to drown when they stop.

 

[cbrunish]

My two cents: I have to agree that swimming would be a spec of Athletics. If you have any questions to that just ask Michael Phelps if its an athletic skill.

Also why is there no surface ships in the game? What's the use of seafarer skill if there is no surface ships? At least T4 had those types of ships and CT also had a couple of ships, even a destroyer.

Actually a very good thread. Up til now I never thought about a swimming skill.

 

[dmccoy1693]

...a year and a half of D&D and two years of Exalted. I never used swimming once...

Pooh say I to the lack of environmental challenges

Waterbreathing spell and walking along the bottom worked better. No skill check required. No skill ranks wasted. No Armor Check Penalty.

 

[rust]

Waterbreathing spell and walking along the bottom worked better.

One Antimagic Field, and the fish are fed ... :twisted:

 

[dmccoy1693]

Lets take a look at the flip side of the coin for a moment. If swimming is critical to require its own skill, what else is Traveller missing?

What if someone's homebrew relies heavily on jump gate technology instead of jump drives (babylon 5, anyone)? Should the main book mention the differences if skills required for that homebrew? What about solar sails and how they can achieve FTL speeds? Should that be mentioned as its own Engineering speciality? How about if someone's homebrew has a flying alien race as important? Should there be a fly skill or should athletics handle that? What about aliens the size of house cats or king kong? Should the main book mention how much less/more damage they do on an unarmed attack?

The main book can only go so far before its turns into T5. Sooner or later, someone has to say that that's to much and cuts stuff.

Having said that, if someone releases a book on seafaring ships, I'd hope they formally list a swimming skill/specialization of Athletics.

 

[rust]

... jump gate ... solar sails ... a flying alien ... aliens the size of house cats or king kong ...

None of these are a part of every universe created with the basic Travel-
ler rules, but water worlds are.

 

[Shiloh]

... jump gate ... solar sails ... a flying alien ... aliens the size of house cats or king kong ...

None of these are a part of every universe created with the basic Travel-
ler rules, but water worlds are.

And there aren't *that* many worlds with a zero hydrography that aren't also airless rockballs.

 

[rust]

By the way, it is not just the Swim skill and its related rules, or the mis-
sing water vehicles, or some badly described equipment.

One more example:

According to MGT, at TL 13 starships become able to operate under wa-
ter.

And that's it.

Everything else, from their speed to their sensors (they would need so-
nar, I think) to the use of weapons under water to the crush depth, and
so on, has to be made up.

I am glad that I have GURPS Traveller Starships, which includes all of
the necessary information, even specialized underwater sensor systems
for Traveller starships.

 

[Baron Sidur Haski]

What about Dolphins? Githkaskio? Tahavi? Luriani? Genetically altered Humans for Waterworlds? Would the swimming ability outside of the Human norm be a Racial trait?

 

[rust]

What about Dolphins? Githkaskio? Tahavi? Luriani?

I think they would be treated as aquatic or amphibious.