A Sculpting Poll
- Thread starter ScipioAmericanus
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MaxSteiner
Mongoose
Ah twenty min's is pretty local (even over here), apologies to jumping to conclusions!
The only place near me is in a town thats best forgotten, with nothing of any interest other than a tiny hobby shop hidden behind a shopping center.
The only place near me is in a town thats best forgotten, with nothing of any interest other than a tiny hobby shop hidden behind a shopping center.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Rob_alderman said:
That is spot on to what I think.
You look at the MI or the pics of the Forth or most 40K armies and there is a unifying theme and design.
With the skinnies they vary wildly, elite guard are guard who are a bit better than the rest, but in concept style they look radically different!
As Rob said some have different teeth. Many also have no dew claws and the warchief hasn't skinnie feet!
Galatea said:
The tankers look like a dog's chew toy, or one of those oversize plastic insects you buy in the 7 year old section at Toys R Us.
I love the skinnies look, not unhappy with any of the models save the Slaves. They fit thier look. Concept art is never something to go by as far as models. Most of GW's models don't ever match up with thier concept art as well, I've seen loads of stuff I wish they had done like thier art, but they didn't. Don't like em, don't buy em and that will tell Mongoose what they need to know. But myself and at least one other in our little group will be buying them up
gorkamorka
Mongoose
More isn't always better, either
As for the releases of the minis, some of them just need a better hook.
How is it that we get ten thousand different skinnies, when just a few might do the job. As with the bugs, the new ones are far between, each has a purpose and fits in a unifies army. I understand the hedjemy concept, but the minis range in quality from crap to perfect.
I feel as most do that the unifying theme of the army is going to be the stickler.
Go back in to the old idea of alien races, and start complimenting the beasts with some coheasion.
As for a new sculpter, i feel that some of the quality needs improvement, Some of the figs need a complete overhaule and resubmission but I am overally satisfied with the models that I pick up. In the event that I don't find the one i need, I convert it. Though it was easier with the other companies stuff, after a while, there comes an issue of too many.
Instead of glutting the market with new releises , could there be an alternative to the new release of some of the figs that just straight up dont pass the common sense test? It saves alot of %@$#!^@ in the long run, not to mention the naysayers having at you with ammo in there pocket. Quality, not quantity is most important. I stick by this company because they seem to have the desire, but now is time for an overall solid vision of what you want to do, and direction you want to take the game.
Keep the sculpters, but you need to challenge them with higher standards if your going to bring in more, bring in a few more but make them earn thier keep.
As for the releases of the minis, some of them just need a better hook.
How is it that we get ten thousand different skinnies, when just a few might do the job. As with the bugs, the new ones are far between, each has a purpose and fits in a unifies army. I understand the hedjemy concept, but the minis range in quality from crap to perfect.
I feel as most do that the unifying theme of the army is going to be the stickler.
Go back in to the old idea of alien races, and start complimenting the beasts with some coheasion.
As for a new sculpter, i feel that some of the quality needs improvement, Some of the figs need a complete overhaule and resubmission but I am overally satisfied with the models that I pick up. In the event that I don't find the one i need, I convert it. Though it was easier with the other companies stuff, after a while, there comes an issue of too many.
Instead of glutting the market with new releises , could there be an alternative to the new release of some of the figs that just straight up dont pass the common sense test? It saves alot of %@$#!^@ in the long run, not to mention the naysayers having at you with ammo in there pocket. Quality, not quantity is most important. I stick by this company because they seem to have the desire, but now is time for an overall solid vision of what you want to do, and direction you want to take the game.
Keep the sculpters, but you need to challenge them with higher standards if your going to bring in more, bring in a few more but make them earn thier keep.
Cristo Meyers
Mongoose
I think the ladder they have to go through isn't helping them any. Didn't someone say a while back that they had to go from sculptor to Sony to Mongoose and back or something like that?
To be perfectly honest, I wasn't expecting much from Mongoose human minis. Looking at some of their older mini lines, I was never very impressed with the humans. The MI to me are fine, they're not stellar, sure, but to me they don't look any worse than the average Space Marine (in ease of assembly, however...).
The Skinnies are very hit and miss, the Soldiers, Guard, proto Raiders, and Tyrant look great to me, Elite Guard, Venerables, and Lord are kinda goofy, and the others are pretty bad.
I do think that we can give Mongoose a little slack as they aren't a purely miniatures company. They started in solely RPGs. But I'm not gonna open up that can again.
I don't think we need new sculptors, I think we just need to pressure the ones we have more. We know that they can produce great minis, we just need to hold them to it. If this means slowing down releases, so be it. In the end it'll help more than hinder.
To be perfectly honest, I wasn't expecting much from Mongoose human minis. Looking at some of their older mini lines, I was never very impressed with the humans. The MI to me are fine, they're not stellar, sure, but to me they don't look any worse than the average Space Marine (in ease of assembly, however...).
The Skinnies are very hit and miss, the Soldiers, Guard, proto Raiders, and Tyrant look great to me, Elite Guard, Venerables, and Lord are kinda goofy, and the others are pretty bad.
I do think that we can give Mongoose a little slack as they aren't a purely miniatures company. They started in solely RPGs. But I'm not gonna open up that can again.
I don't think we need new sculptors, I think we just need to pressure the ones we have more. We know that they can produce great minis, we just need to hold them to it. If this means slowing down releases, so be it. In the end it'll help more than hinder.
Here's the thing about having to go through Sony. Yes, it can hold up production and it limits what their designs will look like, but IN NO WAY does it alter a sculptors ability to create a clean sculpt (unless SONY wanted "monkey chics" in which case I guess I'm wrong). As far as the concept art goes I've been saying that from the get go! Even the art in the books tends to fall well short of what the rest of the industry is doing. Compare any one of the current books MGP has put out for this game to, for example, the rule book for Confrontation. I think unfortunately that MGP falls slightly short with their art in general. This is one of the bigger factors that has lead to the demise of the game in my area. 
I must admit that my interest in the SST game comes from my interest in the universe, not the models. The artwork in the rulebook too does not appeal to me; it's a wierd combo of so many different styles. I hate how you can see the pixels in some of the CG images (check Rico and Dizzy on p68 to see what I mean). I also hate the comic like style in the MI book whenever a priority level asset list comes up- looks silly, IMO.
On the other hand, I think some is pretty good. I like the style of the LAMI on p2 of the Klendathu book, and the image of the Skyhook on p44 of the MI book is wonderful too. I just wish it was all that good!
On the other hand, I think some is pretty good. I like the style of the LAMI on p2 of the Klendathu book, and the image of the Skyhook on p44 of the MI book is wonderful too. I just wish it was all that good!
Taarnak
Mongoose
Quark said:Here's the thing about having to go through Sony. Yes, it can hold up production and it limits what their designs will look like, but IN NO WAY does it alter a sculptors ability to create a clean sculpt (unless SONY wanted "monkey chics" in which case I guess I'm wrong). As far as the concept art goes I've been saying that from the get go! Even the art in the books tends to fall well short of what the rest of the industry is doing. Compare any one of the current books MGP has put out for this game to, for example, the rule book for Confrontation. I think unfortunately that MGP falls slightly short with their art in general. This is one of the bigger factors that has lead to the demise of the game in my area.
I personally think that the lack of/lacklustre concept art can be blamed for the disjointed styles in the figures, but in no way does that excuse the sculptor's lack of quality end product.
In other words, even if they are sculpting from notes or sketches jotted on napkins, or full-fledged concept art; the anatomy, posing, and crispness of the sculpts is entirely on the sculptor's head.
Just my opinion.
Taarnak said:Quark said:Here's the thing about having to go through Sony. Yes, it can hold up production and it limits what their designs will look like, but IN NO WAY does it alter a sculptors ability to create a clean sculpt (unless SONY wanted "monkey chics" in which case I guess I'm wrong). As far as the concept art goes I've been saying that from the get go! Even the art in the books tends to fall well short of what the rest of the industry is doing. Compare any one of the current books MGP has put out for this game to, for example, the rule book for Confrontation. I think unfortunately that MGP falls slightly short with their art in general. This is one of the bigger factors that has lead to the demise of the game in my area.
I personally think that the lack of/lacklustre concept art can be blamed for the disjointed styles in the figures, but in no way does that excuse the sculptor's lack of quality end product.
In other words, even if they are sculpting from notes or sketches jotted on napkins, or full-fledged concept art; the anatomy, posing, and crispness of the sculpts is entirely on the sculptor's head.
Just my opinion.
This is kindof the 'Star Trek Writers' syndrom. What you have here is a series of sculptors, who likely have very little (if any) contact with one another, all of whom are told generally what the skinnies are like, shown a few pieces of concept art, and told 'Make these'. The end result is that each sculptor takes their own view on the way the concept art looks, so you get a series of various different styles of concept art. Akin to what happens when someone who's only seen one or two episodes of Star Trek TOS decides to write an episode for TNG involving Klingons and totally mangles their society in the process because they only have a very limited view of how that society functions and either don't want to or don't think to check other sources for information on it. Most likely a lot of the variations between the different bits are a result of this failure to communicate. Also: What's wrong with various different body-types in Skinnies? Surely you don't think that humans in every climate have the same height, or the same build, do you? Humans who's ancestory lies in hot, dry areas tend to be very tall and thin. Those from very cold areas tend to be short and stocky. Genetic differences which make very little physiological difference in terms of overall capacity can make great differences in the way they look and the proportions of the body. Just imagine if you had other worlds to inhabit as well. What would humans who had been living on a high-G world be like after 10 generations? Or those on a low-G world? Or a world where the UV levels are drastically higher then earth, or one where there's virtually no sunlight? Surely you can't believe that every one of those humans is going to be 6' tall and white can you? Yet everyone expects humans to be modeled that way and seems to get upset when they aren't.
I suspect they could do with a bit more cohesion in the style of the skinnies, yes. But this is a classic example of what happens when you have a series of different artists who are all doing their take on a piece without consulting one another on style to draw it into a single 'whole'.
I think you're missing the original point here though Ilusia. While coherency is a problem, lack of coordination is no excuse for sculpts that just don't measure up imho. Also, yeah, you're right about people/aliens from different climates looking different etc., but I don't think that is why the Skinnies look the way they look. If Mongoose was going to take that direction then why do all the Cap Troopers look identical?
MaxSteiner
Mongoose
:shock: startrek writers syndrome :shock:
Genius!
That's the best reason i've ever heard!!!
Looking at the venerables heads/waists compared to all the rest I think you've hit the nail on the head!
Doesn't explain why they all have different amounts of toes/different feet though...
Genius!
That's the best reason i've ever heard!!!
Looking at the venerables heads/waists compared to all the rest I think you've hit the nail on the head!
Doesn't explain why they all have different amounts of toes/different feet though...
In all of the concept art I've seen of the skinnies (Very very limited that it is) I've seen fairly little which actually has FEET in it. And if you don't include that kind of information, what's the sculptor got to work with? That's another one I see a LOT in sculpting and art. If you don't supply people with information like how many toes they have, how their legs are built and suchlike, people make it up as they go! And often times will get it wrong between different creators. Most sculptors, when left to their own devices, tend to picture aliens with more or less human physical builds (It's what they know best, after all!) and will tend to replicate those when making their work if not supplied other information. Three artists, each told that the individuals have 3 toes, and walk on the balls of their feet, may well produce three totally different leg-structures which fulfill those qualifications. One might put two toes on the front and one on the rear. Etc.
In terms of quality: The only ones I've seen any 'quality' problems with is the slaves, and the faces. The slaves are more a 'stylistic' issue then an actual quality of the sculpt issue, IMHO. They don't look right, but quality-wise they're fairly good. The faces on most models are rather sub-par it seems. But getting convincing features on someone who's only 30mm high is hard! I suspect that if Mongoose is guilty of anything it's allowing too many different artists to all attempt to make different parts of the same forces without proper cross-communication between them. For the MI there's lots of pre-existing fluff, visual refrences, etc. The movie is FILLED with LAMI. The TV series has TONS of shots of both the bugs and the MI. But for the Skinnies there's very little information out there for the most part. Which means the sculptors are rather 'flying blind' as it were. What they really needed to do, and didn't do I suspect, is provide a good way for the sculptors to communicate and share their individual takes on the race, to allow for a more cohesive whole.
In terms of quality: The only ones I've seen any 'quality' problems with is the slaves, and the faces. The slaves are more a 'stylistic' issue then an actual quality of the sculpt issue, IMHO. They don't look right, but quality-wise they're fairly good. The faces on most models are rather sub-par it seems. But getting convincing features on someone who's only 30mm high is hard! I suspect that if Mongoose is guilty of anything it's allowing too many different artists to all attempt to make different parts of the same forces without proper cross-communication between them. For the MI there's lots of pre-existing fluff, visual refrences, etc. The movie is FILLED with LAMI. The TV series has TONS of shots of both the bugs and the MI. But for the Skinnies there's very little information out there for the most part. Which means the sculptors are rather 'flying blind' as it were. What they really needed to do, and didn't do I suspect, is provide a good way for the sculptors to communicate and share their individual takes on the race, to allow for a more cohesive whole.
ScipioAmericanus
Mongoose
Still...it boils down to how "committed" you are, I think.
I've been lucky enough to have my art published for SST: each image you guys see in a book represents hours and hours and hours of work. I went through about two days of work sketching just to get a firm idea for the logos for the Roghnecks book...then God knows how many hours doing the images, tweaking them, etc., etc., etc.
I spent most of a day watching Taco's feet and how she uses them in order to understand how a race with with less than 5 fingers would interact with the world. Now, I'm in the process of creating an alphabet for the Forth.
I'm wondering if our sculptors take the same amount of time...or if they just get the assignment and go with it?
I've been lucky enough to have my art published for SST: each image you guys see in a book represents hours and hours and hours of work. I went through about two days of work sketching just to get a firm idea for the logos for the Roghnecks book...then God knows how many hours doing the images, tweaking them, etc., etc., etc.
I spent most of a day watching Taco's feet and how she uses them in order to understand how a race with with less than 5 fingers would interact with the world. Now, I'm in the process of creating an alphabet for the Forth.
I'm wondering if our sculptors take the same amount of time...or if they just get the assignment and go with it?
No disrepect to the current sculptor but I totally see the problems here...I'm not a fan of most of the skinny range. The faces on many of the humans are...um...ok...I guess. (Some variation would have been nice on the plastic MIs)
On the other hand I've tried sculpting...and, well...faces are really freaking hard! So for that reason this is not an official complaint.
On the other hand I've tried sculpting...and, well...faces are really freaking hard! So for that reason this is not an official complaint.
ScipioAmericanus
Mongoose
pa11ad1n said:
I've tried sculpting too. And, yes, I agree...faces are hard. That's why I don't sculpt and try to sell my sculpts. Now, for those more talented than we, should we not expect due dilligence from them?
When the Female CAP troopers came out, I remember many comments about the "monkey faces." Feedback. It appears it was ignored. Still, I ordered a bunch of heads from Hasslefree, so the monkey face issue is moot at this point for me. But...will every gamer or potential SST convert do the same? Or will they say "those suck!" and go elsewhere???
Regards.
Scipio:
So far in my area the result has been that potential players say "those suck", and then go elsewhere. This is a little embarassing for me as one of the things I was using as a selling point for this game (when I was demoing every weekend and pushing it really hard) was the quality of the miniatures (in terms of most of the bugs and things like the Exo's). Talk about having egg on your face. I hate it when you have to listen to a bunch of GW Fanboys gloat and you can't say anything because (for once) they're not wrong.
So far in my area the result has been that potential players say "those suck", and then go elsewhere. This is a little embarassing for me as one of the things I was using as a selling point for this game (when I was demoing every weekend and pushing it really hard) was the quality of the miniatures (in terms of most of the bugs and things like the Exo's). Talk about having egg on your face. I hate it when you have to listen to a bunch of GW Fanboys gloat and you can't say anything because (for once) they're not wrong.
