A question about Resources

[MasterGwydion]

As it stands currently in the WBH, Resources are determined by a 2d6-7+Size+DMs. Then for the system as a whole, if the Mainworld is TL-8+, you add in the gas giants and asteroid belts. What about the other planets in the system? Why are they not counted for Resources? Do planets just magically have no Resources if they are not a Mainworld? If they do have Resources, why are they not counted in the system's economic data? Shouldn't each world's Resources be determined by the same method as the Mainworld and then simply added to the economic data once the Mainworld is TL-8+?

Mechanically speaking this totally breaks the current Resource system, since most systems would have a Resource Rating of 30+.

Geir? What were the thoughts behind ignoring other worlds in the system, but not ignoring gas giants and asteroid belts? Were you just continuing a flawed system forward or was there a reason for this decision?

 

[Condottiere]

If you like, resources mentioned are for the system, and distributed on any number of rocks from the sun as preferred.

 

[Geir]

As it stands currently in the WBH, Resources are determined by a 2d6-7+Size+DMs. Then for the system as a whole, if the Mainworld is TL-8+, you add in the gas giants and asteroid belts. What about the other planets in the system? Why are they not counted for Resources? Do planets just magically have no Resources if they are not a Mainworld? If they do have Resources, why are they not counted in the system's economic data? Shouldn't each world's Resources be determined by the same method as the Mainworld and then simply added to the economic data once the Mainworld is TL-8+?

Mechanically speaking this totally breaks the current Resource system, since most systems would have a Resource Rating of 30+.

Geir? What were the thoughts behind ignoring other worlds in the system, but not ignoring gas giants and asteroid belts? Were you just continuing a flawed system forward or was there a reason for this decision?

I don't know how you get 30+ out of that because you're just adding +1 for each belt and gas giant - and I should clarify, for the mainworld's resources only. If you have populations on other planets, they would have their own resource and infrastructure stats. limited to that world, but unless there is a significant population it won't amount to much, GWP-wise, compared to the mainworld.

This straight out of the RU stuff from T5, so I'm not sure what current Resource system it breaks. What I use it for is as part of the base value for GWP, but resources are limited in bounds to infrastructure (infrastructure x2, so basically the most resources you can add is as much as the infrastructure), so no matter how resource rich the system is, if you're not equipped to take advantage of it, you don't get anything out of it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I don't know how you get 30+ out of that because you're just adding +1 for each belt and gas giant - and I should clarify, for the mainworld's resources only. If you have populations on other planets, they would have their own resource and infrastructure stats. limited to that world, but unless there is a significant population it won't amount to much, GWP-wise, compared to the mainworld.

I apologize. I think I explained poorly. My bad. I mean, if the mainworld colonizes the other planets in the system, mining colonies or some such, then why wouldn't they count towards your Mainworld's Resource number. It counts gas giants and asteroid belts, why not other planets with mining colonies of the Mainworld? Does that make more sense?

This straight out of the RU stuff from T5, so I'm not sure what current Resource system it breaks. What I use it for is as part of the base value for GWP, but resources are limited in bounds to infrastructure (infrastructure x2, so basically the most resources you can add is as much as the infrastructure), so no matter how resource rich the system is, if you're not equipped to take advantage of it, you don't get anything out of it.

By break it, I mean, each mining colony adding 2d6-7 Resources to the Mainworld's Resource total. Say, in a mature star system, with a Mainworld, 3 planetary mining colonies, 2 gas giants, and an asteroid belt. Assuming that the mining colonies were developed to the point of being able to access their planet's resources, they could feasibly add significantly to the Mainworld's Resource total. How high can you build that Infrastructure number?

 

[Geir]

I apologize. I think I explained poorly. My bad. I mean, if the mainworld colonizes the other planets in the system, mining colonies or some such, then why wouldn't they count towards your Mainworld's Resource number. It counts gas giants and asteroid belts, why not other planets with mining colonies of the Mainworld? Does that make more sense?

By break it, I mean, each mining colony adding 2d6-7 Resources to the Mainworld's Resource total. Say, in a mature star system, with a Mainworld, 3 planetary mining colonies, 2 gas giants, and an asteroid belt. Assuming that the mining colonies were developed to the point of being able to access their planet's resources, they could feasibly add significantly to the Mainworld's Resource total. How high can you build that Infrastructure number?

Infrastructure is kind of goofy as taken from T5. It's Importance (which can and often will be negative) +1D once your population hits 4 and another +1D at pop 7.

This is where a World Pocket Tamer Empire Guide (WPTEG ??? sure why not) would be handy for determining and improving infrastructure. There was some very good stuff on building infrastructure in the previous version of 2300ADs Tools For Frontier Living that can be mined for developing colonies and outposts (I stole took inspiration from the Colony Design chapter for a lot of the biosphere and habitability stuff). Maybe it will be in 2300AD: Building the Frontier if Colin is still working on that one.

 

[NOLATrav]

Infrastructure is kind of goofy as taken from T5.

It’s a shame T5 has had such a stranglehold on MgT 2e when it comes to tech and building and world building. I mean, I understand why to a point, but still.

Looking forward to MgT 3e Manual of Unified Technologies & Protocols.

 

[Geir]

It’s a shame T5 has had such a stranglehold on MgT 2e when it comes to tech and building and world building. I mean, I understand why to a point, but still.

Let's just say that I'm less concerned with convergence than I used to be...
There are things worth plucking out of T5, but it can be a bit like panning for gold in a muddy river.

 

[NOLATrav]

Absolutely. That’s a lovely and much more gracious metaphor than I have used when describing T5

But I agree, there are definitely nuggets of gold hidden in those many many many many pages.

 

[Geir]

Absolutely. That’s a lovely and much more gracious metaphor than I have used when describing T5

But I agree, there are definitely nuggets of gold hidden in those many many many many pages.

Well, they told me that brown stuff was mud...

 

[MasterGwydion]

Infrastructure is kind of goofy as taken from T5. It's Importance (which can and often will be negative) +1D once your population hits 4 and another +1D at pop 7.

This is where a World Pocket Tamer Empire Guide (WPTEG ??? sure why not) would be handy for determining and improving infrastructure. There was some very good stuff on building infrastructure in the previous version of 2300ADs Tools For Frontier Living that can be mined for developing colonies and outposts (I stole took inspiration from the Colony Design chapter for a lot of the biosphere and habitability stuff). Maybe it will be in 2300AD: Building the Frontier if Colin is still working on that one.

Obviously infrastructure is something that can be increased through spending RUs or some other such thing. Yes?

 

[Galadrion]

Obviously infrastructure is something that can be increased through spending RUs or some other such thing. Yes?

If we ever get a MongTrav2 Pocket Empires or similar. (Attention all Mongoose personnel: Hurry up and take my money!)

 

[MasterGwydion]

If we ever get a MongTrav2 Pocket Empires or similar. (Attention all Mongoose personnel: Hurry up and take my money!)

Mine too! lol

 

[MongooseMatt]

If we ever get a MongTrav2 Pocket Empires or similar. (Attention all Mongoose personnel: Hurry up and take my money!)

The current idea here is that we first do a belt mining book (which will include small enterprises), then Merchant Prince, then Pocket Empires, as a sort of progression...

 

[Iracundus]

"And when at last it is time for the transition from megacorporation to planetary government, from entrepreneur to emperor, it is then that the true genius of our strategy shall become apparent, for energy is the lifeblood of this society..."

Quote from another universe but they might as well have been spoken by Cleon

 

[phavoc]

Extractive industries are hard to model. One would think nearly all star systems, as a whole, would have a great deal of resources and running out of them would be a prodigious effort for any civilization. Trying to model the complexity is difficult, at best.

Of course the key component is going to be cost - are the resources lying around the system economically recoverable for a society? If it were an ant-like society that exists only to reproduce and grow and eschews concepts like profits or societal luxuries, then that question comes down only to cost of extraction vs usefulness of the resource. If ya gotta have it then price is rarely an option.

If, however, you are talking a capitalistic or semi-capitalistic society, then profitability then becomes more of an issue. That's where you can see pockets of blight and success, and systems with good infrastructure and those without it. The extractive industry is going to be based upon cost and need. And this is where the dice rolling is gonna fail unless you want a totally random sector (and I think we already have that in Traveller with all the problems associated with the illogic of it).

Otherwise a good ref needs to tweak their setting. Random rolls are fine, but the subtle hand of the GM is required to make the setting make sense for your gamers. A planet, moon, or even an asteroid field is gonna be a pretty big place. Chances are there are going to be pockets of usefully extractable resources a society in a system could use for internal consumption or for export. Traveller has never done well, as a gaming system, of developing the system infrastructure that one would naturally expect to see before people hared off to another system to see if there was a Psyche in every orbit. It's far cheaper to operate in your own system than go light years away to get things. Or, as Al Bundy said one episode - "Peg, why go out for milk when you have a cow at home". Gotta love a good Bundy aphorism.

In any event I think the rolling up of tables will leave you short in designing a good usable gaming system. It's fine to use as a base, but tweak things where it makes sense to do so.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Extractive industries are hard to model. One would think nearly all star systems, as a whole, would have a great deal of resources and running out of them would be a prodigious effort for any civilization. Trying to model the complexity is difficult, at best.

Of course the key component is going to be cost - are the resources lying around the system economically recoverable for a society? If it were an ant-like society that exists only to reproduce and grow and eschews concepts like profits or societal luxuries, then that question comes down only to cost of extraction vs usefulness of the resource. If ya gotta have it then price is rarely an option.

If, however, you are talking a capitalistic or semi-capitalistic society, then profitability then becomes more of an issue. That's where you can see pockets of blight and success, and systems with good infrastructure and those without it. The extractive industry is going to be based upon cost and need. And this is where the dice rolling is gonna fail unless you want a totally random sector (and I think we already have that in Traveller with all the problems associated with the illogic of it).

Otherwise a good ref needs to tweak their setting. Random rolls are fine, but the subtle hand of the GM is required to make the setting make sense for your gamers. A planet, moon, or even an asteroid field is gonna be a pretty big place. Chances are there are going to be pockets of usefully extractable resources a society in a system could use for internal consumption or for export. Traveller has never done well, as a gaming system, of developing the system infrastructure that one would naturally expect to see before people hared off to another system to see if there was a Psyche in every orbit. It's far cheaper to operate in your own system than go light years away to get things. Or, as Al Bundy said one episode - "Peg, why go out for milk when you have a cow at home". Gotta love a good Bundy aphorism.

In any event I think the rolling up of tables will leave you short in designing a good usable gaming system. It's fine to use as a base, but tweak things where it makes sense to do so.

What I don't get though is, why do the mainworlds not benefit from the resources on other planets in the system, the same way they do from Gas Giants and Asteroid Belts?

 

[J. L. Brown]

What I don't get though is, why do the mainworlds not benefit from the resources on other planets in the system, the same way they do from Gas Giants and Asteroid Belts?

I think the two unspoken assumptions are 1} 'The Mainworld is always the Best World, and all the others are either Not Worth Exploiting', and 2} 'All non-Main Worlds are Independent Polities which calculate their economy separately'. These sorts of 'hidden assumptions' are everywhere, and they are uniformly toxic.

 

[Condottiere]

Interstellar transportation costs are cheaper than intrasystem?

 

[Anstett]

It might (likely does) cost more short term to build up the infrastructure to extract and refine the resources to build "stuff" with than to import it.

If you are a very controlled government you can plan ahead, and build the infrastructure with the eye towards the future. If you are trying to please voters who want things now, or just too chaotic of a situation then it is easy to just buy of the shelf rather than build it yourself.

Getting goods from the deep system to the Main World can take over a week intra-system. If you are going to jump the goods in, it does not matter if it comes from Neptune or Regina both arrive at the same time.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Interstellar transportation costs are cheaper than intrasystem?

I guess that could be one hidden assumption, but it does not stand up to scrutiny. Ships without J-Drives are (comparatively) very inexpensive to operate. Even a J-1 freighter charges 1000 Cr/dTon, something that is easy for in-system transport to undercut.