760 Patrons - Wow

[E.D.Quibell]

My point is that it's impossible to argue that 760 Patrons is not Traveller, like it is to argue that it is not Star Wars or not Cyberpunk.

Sorry Klaus, it is possible to argue that 760 Patrons is not Traveller. In fact I wouldn't be bothering with these posts if it was in any way a Traveller product.

It slots into the MGT ruleset perfectly, unlike a truly generic product would. It is closer to MGT than, say, StarMercs from GT. I can get some setting info from the latter, but could not integrate it into MGT without a good knowledge of GURPS.

No it doesn't. If fits with MGT character generation live events and contacts, but then so would any other generic book of NPCs without a Traveller swoosh on the front. Rule specific ones, such as StarMercs, you have suggested, don't fit as well because they are rule specific (GURPS). Thats the problem with 760 Patrons, it has no connection to the MGT Core Rulebook.

I've just used 760 Patrons in conjunction with MGT chargen to spin out a whole scenario from just the connections rule. That's a bloody useful piece of product. In a way better than a whole load of Patrons. I might've used a handful of entries from a putative 76 Patrons, but I've already used 20 or 30 entries from 760 Patrons, made a complete scenario, in the space of an evening. That's very useful.

I agree, 760 Patrons is very useful with MGT character generation, 760 Patrons is a very good book. But then any generic NPC book that was good would be very useful with MGT character generation. But that doesn't mean that 760 Patrons is about Patrons, it's not, and that doesn't mean that 760 Patrons is a Traveller product, it's not.

I agree 760 Patrons is a good and useful book, no arguments there, unfortunately it's not about Patrons, and it's not Traveller.

Best Regards,

Ewan

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Unless of course they'd read the patron encounters in the core rulebook, and come to the very reasonable conclusion that a book called "760 Patrons" would have more encounters along those lines.

Which aren't that different from the encounters in 760. They have a similar format, and yes, they are more detailed, but I'm not sure how a newb is meant to know that those in TMB are patron encounters and those in 760 are not. 760 could be though of as patron-light.

I hope anyone thinking of buying the book by mail order reads this thread first. Wouldn't want them to be misled by the words Mongoose chose to put on the front of their book, now would we?

If Mongoose have decided to loosen the seemingly (from all the fuss) strict definition of Patron then it's within their remit. This isn't a reprint, for all that it is a reimagining of CT, and if they want to redefine terms then it's their prerogative. If we take patron as a word in the English language, all the encounters in 760 are potential patrons.

On the contrary, it's quite easy. If I go into a shop and ask for fork handles, and the shopkeeper sells me four candles instead, I'm going to be disappointed. They might be the most beautifully made, elegant and aromatic candles in the world. I might even be able to use some candles around the house. That doesn't change the fact that I still have all these forks that need handles put on them.

That analogy is wrong, it's more like asking for fork handles and getting some nicely designed chopsticks instead.

I can understand comments and queries as to the fact that 760 encounters are not as filled out as a traditional patron, but if the product is as useful as it is, and as comprehensive as it is, then I fail to understand the level of, what amounts to griping, over what is just a book title.

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

If I go into a shop and ask for fork handles, and the shopkeeper sells me four candles instead, I'm going to be disappointed.

Dunno how anyone can be disappointed by one of the greatest Ronnie Barker sketches ever

 

[EDG]

Like I said on the other thread, I suspect the issue is that Mongoose released a product that anyone else would have released under the OGL (the TLL may not even need to apply here), but they called it an actual Traveller book despite it not having any direct connection with the Traveller rules.

(I haven't seen the book myself mind, it just sounds like what they did from what's being described. I actually assumed initially that it was an OTU product with OTU races and encounters).

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Which aren't that different from the encounters in 760.

But there is a difference ....

They have a similar format, and yes, they are more detailed, but I'm not sure how a newb is meant to know that those in TMB are patron encounters and those in 760 are not.

But we aren't talking about newbs, we are talking about the brand identity of Traveller and what a Patron means in that context.

760 could be though of as patron-light.

It could be, but that's not what it says on the cover, or on the back of the book, or in the blurb on the Website. Everything points to the book being about Patrons in the Traveller sense of the term. Not "patron-light", not NPCs, but Patrons, the website even mentions the original 76 Patrons, and says that 760 Patrons is bigger and better. Everything points to the book being about 760 Patrons and about Traveller, unfortunately it's neither.

If Mongoose have decided to loosen the seemingly (from all the fuss) strict definition of Patron then it's within their remit. This isn't a reprint, for all that it is a reimagining of CT, and if they want to redefine terms then it's their prerogative. If we take patron as a word in the English language, all the encounters in 760 are potential patrons.

The problem is that they didn't "loosen the seemingly strict definition of Patron" they used the Traveller sense of the definition of Patron to sell the book, but then didn't provide Patrons in the Traveller sense. They provided NPCs.

That analogy is wrong, it's more like asking for fork handles and getting some nicely designed chopsticks instead.

The fork handles is a reference to a UK comedy sketch, but even if the analogy is slightly wrong (it's not in a UK context) if you are told you will be getting fork handles but you end up with a packet of nicely designed chopsticks instead, they still are not fork handles. And that is the point.

I can understand comments and queries as to the fact that 760 encounters are not as filled out as a traditional patron, but if the product is as useful as it is, and as comprehensive as it is, then I fail to understand the level of, what amounts to griping, over what is just a book title.

It's more than that. The book is very good, no argument, it's very usefully, no argument. But if the book had a tile of 760 NPCs for Scifi I wouldn't have brought the book. I brought the book because it said 760 Patrons for Traveller. Traveller is a brand, MGT is a subset of that brand, Mongoose are selling that brand because it has brand identity and they can sell products by using it (and they pay Marc for the privilege). So if they sell something that says 760 Patrons for Traveller, that's the product that they should sell. They didn't, and that's the point.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Klaus Kipling]

But we aren't talking about newbs, we are talking about the brand identity of Traveller and what a Patron means in that context.

Well indeed, it's their brand. If it says Traveller on the cover, then it's Traveller. That's quite simple. And that could be what a patron meant in that context. Is totally up to Mongoose to do what it likes with the old terms.

The fork handles is a reference to a UK comedy sketch, but even if the analogy is slightly wrong (it's not in a UK context) if you are told you will be getting fork handles but you end up with a packet of nicely designed chopsticks instead, they still are not fork handles. And that is the point.

I do know my Two Ronnies, sir!

It's more than that. The book is very good, no argument, it's very usefully, no argument. But if the book had a tile of 760 NPCs for Scifi I wouldn't have brought the book. I brought the book because it said 760 Patrons for Traveller. Traveller is a brand, MGT is a subset of that brand, Mongoose are selling that brand because it has brand identity and they can sell products by using it (and they pay Marc for the privilege). So if they sell something that says 760 Patrons for Traveller, that's the product that they should sell. They didn't, and that's the point.

Regards,

Ewan

Well that's a semantic argument if I ever saw one. Mongoose, and MWM, get to decide what Traveller is, not us.

Any rpg product that is not tied in to a specific setting (and I mean here established ones like Middle Earth or Star Wars) and that is not rules can be considered 'generic'.

Anyhow, I'm disagreeing with you when you say it's not Traveller not just because it says Traveller on the tin, but because, in my opinion, Traveller is generic. That 'criticism' could be leveled at most of CT, including some adventures.

I will agree with you that the 760 patrons are not identical to (but are similar to) old style patrons, but the fact that this product is not bad, in fact is rather useful, makes overly criticising the title a tad pedantic.

Saying it isn't Traveller, on the other hand, is pointless, really. I could just easily say Enterprise wasn't Star Trek, or that The Phantom Menace wasn't Star Wars, or that David Tenant isn't Doctor Who.

Traveller and the OTU are not synonymous...

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Traveller and the OTU are not synonymous...

Not any more and I for one am glad.

Traveller is RULES.
OTU is SETTING.

It is nice that Mongoose is making that distinction very obvious with the covers of the books. Generic stuff is basic black. OTU stuff is not.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

Traveller is RULES.
OTU is SETTING.

It is nice that Mongoose is making that distinction very obvious with the covers of the books. Generic stuff is basic black. OTU stuff is not.

Should that not be; Traveller stuff it Black. OTU stuff is not?

As generic stuff can be anything they like, but Traveller stuff needs to be Traveller.

Regards,

Ewan

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Asking what is Traveller is like asking what is Britishness: most of the features are true for any other nation, just as Traveller tropes will be common with any generic sf game.

What's the Traveller equivalent of drinking tea with milk in it, 4+ times a day?

 

[rust]

Traveller stuff it Black. OTU stuff is not?

Look at the Spinward Marches book. It is OTU, and it is not black.

 

[iainjcoleman]

I fail to understand

You use this phrase a lot.

I have explained the problems I have with this book in considerable detail. Your continued failure to understand these points is no longer my problem.

If you are really interested in getting to grips with the problems that I, and others, have with this book, I suggest you set aside your sincere personal enthusiasm for the product and reread the previous posts from a neutral and detached point of view. This may aid your understanding. If not, then I'm afraid there is no point in continuing this discussion.

The points have been made in a way that any reasonably intelligent and literate person can grasp. You are free to disagree with them, but if you persist in failing to understand them then any further discussion is pointless.

 

[iainjcoleman]

PS:

Fork Handles

 

[iainjcoleman]

PPS:

"760 Patrons" is a Traveller product.

The Traveller SRD defines patron encounters as follows:

"Each patron encounter lists:

• The patron’s name and role.
• The skills and resources required to complete the mission
• The suggested reward for the mission
• The mission as described to the characters
• What’s really going on. Several possible variants will be presented – either pick or roll for which is the real situation. "

None of the encounters in "760 Patrons" satisfies this definition.

How much simpler can this point get?

 

[Klaus Kipling]

If you are really interested in getting to grips with the problems that I, and others, have with this book, I suggest you set aside your sincere personal enthusiasm for the product and reread the previous posts from a neutral and detached point of view. This may aid your understanding. If not, then I'm afraid there is no point in continuing this discussion.

The points have been made in a way that any reasonably intelligent and literate person can grasp. You are free to disagree with them, but if you persist in failing to understand them then any further discussion is pointless.

A tad patronising there, sir?

Am I 'neutral'? No, I like Traveller. None of us here are neutral. Detached? I'm emotionally detached from this discussion, if that's what you mean.

I understand your comments, and yes I do disagree with them; what I don't understand is the level of complaint for a product the plaintiffs feel is pretty good, but doesn't 100% conform to the expectations from its title.

I'm taking a point of view. That POV "fails to understand" what the fuss is. Of course, objectively I understand your position and arguments, it's just that I don't think those concerns really matter so much.

The Traveller SRD defines patron encounters as follows:

"Each patron encounter lists:

• The patron’s name and role.
• The skills and resources required to complete the mission
• The suggested reward for the mission
• The mission as described to the characters
• What’s really going on. Several possible variants will be presented – either pick or roll for which is the real situation. "

None of the encounters in "760 Patrons" satisfies this definition.

How much simpler can this point get?

And the only bits 760 lacks is the name (but has the role) and the cash reward. So saying none of 760 satisfies this just ain't so. By those points it is 75% of a strictly defined patron encounter. I'll agree that they're sketchier in content. Psuedo-patrons, or semi-patrons, then?

Many times do rpg products not conform to either preconceived expectations or what their title might be thought to imply, but I only complain if I think it's rubbish. If it's useful (and I believe 760's very useful for a ref) then I find it odd at the level of some of the criticism it gets just because of it's title.

Makes MGT halfway useful for solitaire gaming. If Mongoose comes up with 760 Antagonists and 760 Locations then it's pretty much there.

 

[hdan]

I'm glad I read this thread - from the title "760 Patrons", I was expecting the contents of this book to be pretty much the same as the old "76 Patrons" book, only 10x bigger.

The word "Patron" does have a specific meaning in Traveller. It sounds like these are what are usually called "Encounters". I'm pretty amazed that anyone would tackle 760 encounters, and I have no doubt that the book is a useful and impressive work in its own right.

I'm still likely to pick up 760 Patrons at some point, but I agree that the name is somewhat misleading, especially to old "Black Book" Travellers like me. I'll probably move it behind "Spinward Marches" in my to-buy list.

 

[Fulminata]

I wish I'd read this thread before buying the book. I'm sure I'll find a use for it, but it's not what I was looking for.

Despite the attempts of some to say otherwise, these are not patron encounters, they are simply NPC motivation charts.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Despite the attempts of some to say otherwise, these are not patron encounters, they are simply NPC motivation charts.

Sorry, but that's all a Patron Encounter is.

 

[hdan]

Despite the attempts of some to say otherwise, these are not patron encounters, they are simply NPC motivation charts.

Sorry, but that's all a Patron Encounter is.

I respectfully disagree. Going from this freely available sample from RPGNow! (posted without permission, but as the information is freely available, and I'm posting a partial copy on the copyright holder's own forum, it should count as fair use), we have this character:

(14 – 15.A) Gunner
Required Skills: None Required Equipment: Ship
PLAYER’S INFORMATION:
One of the ship’s gunnery officers has been showing some signs of stress lately. ...
REFEREE’S INFORMATION:
The gunner is (roll a d6)…
1 – 2: …about to have a complete breakdown ...
3 – 4: …very distraught [...] and wants to commit suicide...
5 – 6: …jealous of the characters ...

Now, I don't see the parts where this Gunner is being a "Patron" at all - there is no offer for employment, which is the very definition of "Patron" in the English language. Certainly he's set up to cause a scene, but that's not the same thing as being a Patron.

If this same gunner were proposing to the players that they help him steal a ship's boat to go AWOL, with options like "All is at it seems/He's really a spy/He's really internal affairs", THEN it would be a patron encounter.

Obviously I was able to dream up an adventure seed based on this character with only a little thought, but that was *me* creating a Patron ecounter out of this NPC.

To be honest, I'm very happy Mongoose put 750 Patrons out in PDF. Having seen actual sample contents, I'm now more likely to buy than I was before, and I can now see why people are excited by this book.

But I still maintain my "they're not patrons" stance.

 

[Fulminata]

Despite the attempts of some to say otherwise, these are not patron encounters, they are simply NPC motivation charts.

Sorry, but that's all a Patron Encounter is.

Sorry, but according to the Core Rulebook, that's not all it is. Others in this thread have already quoted the definition of a Patron Encounter as defined in the rules so I won't do it again, but it's much more than that.

I will find a use for this book, but it's not what I expected from the title. It's like ordering a new hard drive for the computer and getting a really nice DVD-drive instead. I'm sure I'll be able to find a use for it, but it's not what I needed.

 

[EDG]

Despite the attempts of some to say otherwise, these are not patron encounters, they are simply NPC motivation charts.

Sorry, but that's all a Patron Encounter is.

Actually I had a look at some of the ones listed in the PDF preview and those aren't what I'd call "Patron encounters" at all. I'd agree that from the preview it just looks like a list of NPCs with randomly generated motivations - whereas a "Patron encounter" should actually be a list of NPCs with adventure seeds attached.