5th Century or so A.D.

[Eisenmann]

Hi all,

I'm picking up my copy of the Runequest book tomorrow at my FLGS. As it happens, I'm smack dab in the middle of reading "The Skystone" by Jack White which is set in Britain during the decline of the Roman empire.

A friend of mine lent me the book but so far he's not a gamer. I figure that if I can run a game in that setting he just might pick up the hobby. The more gamers the merrier.

Anyways, I'm wondering would Runequest be a good fit? I know, I'm asking on the Runequest forum but what a better place to ask? Has there been work done for this kind of setting already? It doesn't have to be perfect from end to end since I'm a historical junkie and can kind of wing-it if necessary.

Also, is Runequest a good fit to introduce players to role-playing? I've never played it myself and am interested in your opinions.

And thank you,

- Nathan

 

[TRose]

should be a good fit. Im not familiar with book, but you might have to adjust the magic is all. And if its a historical plate armor would be very rare, left over pieces from Roman time.

 

[Deathdealer]

Hi all,

I'm picking up my copy of the Runequest book tomorrow at my FLGS. As it happens, I'm smack dab in the middle of reading "The Skystone" by Jack White which is set in Britain during the decline of the Roman empire.

A friend of mine lent me the book but so far he's not a gamer. I figure that if I can run a game in that setting he just might pick up the hobby. The more gamers the merrier.

Anyways, I'm wondering would Runequest be a good fit? I know, I'm asking on the Runequest forum but what a better place to ask? Has there been work done for this kind of setting already? It doesn't have to be perfect from end to end since I'm a historical junkie and can kind of wing-it if necessary.

Also, is Runequest a good fit to introduce players to role-playing? I've never played it myself and am interested in your opinions.

And thank you,

- Nathan

It's been pushed back until next year, but I think Mongoose still has plans for a "historical" King Arthur sourcebook.

 

[atgxtg]

THe rules should fit. RQ was orginally designed for an Ancient Era setting.

You would probably want to tweak some stuff to fit the setting better. THere are a few good RPG soucebooks set in that peroid that you could use for reference.

 

[Rurik]

Hi all,

I'm picking up my copy of the Runequest book tomorrow at my FLGS. As it happens, I'm smack dab in the middle of reading "The Skystone" by Jack White which is set in Britain during the decline of the Roman empire.

A friend of mine lent me the book but so far he's not a gamer. I figure that if I can run a game in that setting he just might pick up the hobby. The more gamers the merrier.

Anyways, I'm wondering would Runequest be a good fit? I know, I'm asking on the Runequest forum but what a better place to ask? Has there been work done for this kind of setting already? It doesn't have to be perfect from end to end since I'm a historical junkie and can kind of wing-it if necessary.

Also, is Runequest a good fit to introduce players to role-playing? I've never played it myself and am interested in your opinions.

And thank you,

- Nathan

All I've read of his is The Eagles Brood. It was very good. Runequest will fit the setting well. It is a much more realistic system than D20, and rather brutal compared to some games.. Do you plan on using magic? It is not in the novels as I remember.

The new RQ looks like it should be a good system to introduce new players to RPG's. Simple to learn and pick up.

For those who are not familiar with Jack Whyte's Arthur it is a very "realistic" interpretation of the Arthurian setting. Merlin only convinces people he is magical. Kinda like the recent movie, but much better IMHO.

I am familiar with the Pendragon source material, which is excellent, but based on a more classic interpretation of Arthur. I know there are other sources that are out there that may be a better fit if any one else has some suggestions.

 

[Eisenmann]

I'd most likey go with no or very little magic. I'd like to keep things in the realm of "realism" but I guess it all depends on how capable characters are able to sustain through combat.

 

[indrodar]

Bernard Cornwell's Warlord trilogy would also make great background reading. Historically "accurate" (he freely admits to loading in anachronisms because it wouldn't be King Arthur without it) with the best descriptions of shield wall combat I've seen.

I'm looking forward to MGP's Arthur setting. Shame it got put back to acomodate Lankhmar (which I also want to pick up before anyone shouts at me!)

 

[soltakss]

It should fit fine.

Combat is swords, spears and shields and works OK. You'd need era-specific armour and weapons if you wanted to be completely realistic.

Magic is a slight problem as RW doesn't have a lot of it. The Romans have cults and worship deities, as do many of the surrounding cultures, so cult members might have magic. Other people generally won't, except for shamans and sorcerers. You would expect a follower of Mars to have some advantages over other people in combat, so why not give them some magic?

There is an Alternate Earth Yahoo Group at http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/alternateearthrq/ which sometimes discusses RQ in Historical settings, when we can be bothered.

I am waiting with bated breath for the proposed King Arthur Sourcebook.

 

[Eisenmann]

I'm not too worried about limitations on magic since I think that I'll be going for the more realistic approach to the setting. Sure Romans had cults and multiple deities but that was much a thing of the past by the 4th century as Christianity began making its way across the empire.

There won't be any plate armor since the Lorica Segmentata went out of "style" pretty much by the late 2nd century A.D. Most everyone would have access to chain, scale, brigandine or the like.

I concur that it would be interesting to put a worshipper of mars in a situation where most everyone around him has taken a new path of worship.

I'll definitely check out the Warlord series. They sound very interesting. And I'm in the same boat as you guys, I'd love to get my hands on a good Arthur/Dark Age Britain book.

 

[atgxtg]

I'll definitely check out the Warlord series. They sound very interesting. And I'm in the same boat as you guys, I'd love to get my hands on a good Arthur/Dark Age Britain book.

As far as gaming books go, try looking at GURPS Camelot is you can. While the book is designed for running a Arthruain campaign, it is set up to handle more than one interpreation of the King Arthur legend. There is a section there on Dark Age Britain--most of which should prove useful to a GM runing in that era.

Almost all the Arthurian RPG stuff out there touches on 5th century Britain, but probably not enough to be worth picking up. Pendragon is great, but is really set more for a Mythical/Mallory inspired Arthuian Britain. On the other hand, the Pagan Shores and Saxons! supplements do detail dark age Irish and Saxon cultures and could be useful for reference.

 

[haargald]

Bernard Cornwell's Warlord trilogy would also make great background reading. Historically "accurate" (he freely admits to loading in anachronisms because it wouldn't be King Arthur without it) with the best descriptions of shield wall combat I've seen.

I'm looking forward to MGP's Arthur setting. Shame it got put back to acomodate Lankhmar (which I also want to pick up before anyone shouts at me!)

Cornwell's stuff is great, very gritty perfect if you want realism. Of course if you want to be really historical, combat is pretty limited. Lots of shields, spears, thrown axes and swords for the well off. Please, please don't use crossbows like that freaking arthur movie, pre-norman saxon invaders with crossbows, god that drove me nuts. I'm no armorer but I would guess that chain mail of that era should either be less effective or more cumbersome than say 13th century chain. I've read a lot of historical accounts where it is believed that Roman auxillaries used chain,but nobody seems positive.

 

[atgxtg]

Of course if you want to be really historical, combat is pretty limited. Lots of shields, spears, thrown axes and swords for the well off. Please, please don't use crossbows like that freaking arthur movie, pre-norman saxon invaders with crossbows, god that drove me nuts. I'm no armorer but I would guess that chain mail of that era should either be less effective or more cumbersome than say 13th century chain. I've read a lot of historical accounts where it is believed that Roman auxillaries used chain,but nobody seems positive.

Boy am I glad I didn't see that KA movie.

Historically accurate means the coomon man will be using clubs, knives, spears (possibly with fire hardened tips).

Steel is just starting to make an appearance and steel weapons and armor would be superior to the iron ones (exception-you do not want steel mail). Quality can really ball all over theplace and you could certain adjust AP scores up or down a point of so.

5th centrury chainmail varied wildly in quaility. It depended on the quality of iron used and the skill and techniques of the maker. THere are a lot of ways to differential mail, and protection can also vary based upon how light you want it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Roman legions were using chainmail armour as early as the third century BC.
By the time of Marius's reforms it was standard issue, and the legions of Augustus were equipped with it.

http://www.infohistory.com/rome.shtml#shield

lorica segmentata

By far the most important and innovative armor the Romans wore was the lorica segmentata. Horizontal bands of overlapping iron plate held together with leather straps and hooks this armor afforded a legionnaire with unparalled protection yet did not unduly restrict his vison or mobility.

lorica squamata

Scale armor consisted of bronze scales (tiny plates of bronze) linked together in horizontal rows which were sewn onto thick leather padding. This type of armor was quite a bit easier to produce than mail. In the 3rd century a new form of scale appeared which had the scales linked both horizontally and vertically. This new technique strengthened the armor considerably especially against sword thrusts and attacks cutting upwards, which could tear regular scale wide open. The penalty for this extra protection was the stiffness and general inflexibility of the armor.

lorica hamata

Made of mail the lorica hamata consisted of interlinked iron rings usually 6-7 mm across but in some cases as small as 3mm in fine mail for prestigious officers. Despite the time and expense to produce mail it seems to be have been used extensively. Mail is almost useless by itself, however when it is worn over heavy studded leather or padded armor it is transformed into a most effective type of protection. Mail works because it blunts or deflects an attack and also absorbs a lot of the impact.

http://www.legionxxiv.org/loricapage/

 

[Sigtrygg]

Oh, and while walking along the Roman Wall one summer I got the chance to wear a reproduction mail shirt at one of the fort museums

 

[AKAramis]

It's been theorized that bronze mail was made as early as the 5th-6th C BCE in greece, and perhaps assyria. (The assertions are based upon statuary and paintings, IIRC.)

Bronze mail and iron mail has been found from roman times.

Mail is not hard to make, but it is time consuming to do so.

Most of the early (pre 800) mail I've seen good photos of is abutted. I do know, however, that iron, bronze, brass, and copper rings can be riveted with simple hand tools, but it takes considerably more time than abutting. An artisan friend of mine has done so on some small scale projects with 7mm-12mm rings.

(Abutted mail has the ends of the ring simply bent to meet. Riveted has the ends flattened, punched, and overlapped, then riveted, often with brass. Modern anti-shark mail is welded; abutted then hit with electric arc to weld the ends together. some modern police mail uses preformed solid ring, mixed with abutted or welded ring.)

some small bits have been shown from dark ages digs of "double-link" copper; the links are two full revolutions each.

The Celts didn't use much chain, from what I've read, but had been using copper, brass, and bronze ring-on-leather and ring-on-quilt. (The infamous so-called ring-mail of D&D, a bad misnomer.) Having seen it in action, it's pretty decent, and VERY pretty. Easier to make, and MUCH faster. The rings do not interlock, but are sewn down to the substrate individually.

 

[atgxtg]

The Celts didn't use much chain, from what I've read, but had been using copper, brass, and bronze ring-on-leather and ring-on-quilt. (The infamous so-called ring-mail of D&D, a bad misnomer.) Having seen it in action, it's pretty decent, and VERY pretty. Easier to make, and MUCH faster. The rings do not interlock, but are sewn down to the substrate individually.

THe whole ring-mail, scale-mail, chain-mail, thing is acvtually the fault of Victoria era scholars who used ther term mail to mean any metal armor. THe word chain-mail was invented simply to give mail armor a name-as everthing else was now called mail too. Modern historcians have gone back to using the actual names for armor, such as ring armor, scale armor, and mail armor.

Unforntunatelyt, when Gygax and and frieds first starting their wargames, they must have used some older reference books and ended up perpuationg the Victorian terms. Chainmail should have been called {i]Mail[/i] or even {i]Maille[/i].

MOst gamers also tend to use the term platemail when refering to plate armor and/or partial plate armor, or even reinforced chain.. Like the other armors, platemail is an non-term. Plate & Mail combination armor (mail armor with plate reienfecement and/or a brestplate) was a real armor.

 

[Sigtrygg]

A couple of quotes thanks to google:

the Celts wore no armour at all until circa 300 BCE, the approximate date of the invention of chain mail. Chain mail is of Celtic origin, the earliest known examples appearing in graves dating from the third century.

It was most likely introduced to the Roman Army during campaigns against the Celtic Gauls during the Celtic Wars, which ensued after Rome was sacked by the Celtic Gauls, in 390 BC. The Romans are thought to have believed that the Gauls had in fact developed "Mail" for use as body armor.

I also have a couple of books that suggest the celts invented chainmail armour - examples have definitely been found in archaeological digs if the museum exhibits I've seen are to be believed.

 

[AKAramis]

I've seen references previctorian using the terms maille, knit-chain, and "chain hauberk" in previctorian sources. (They're packed, sorry.) Gygax did use a lot of victorian terms, but the SCA and the Rose and Crown Society are more responsible for undoing the victorian terms than the historical community overall. Reenactors with authenticity freaks breed working historians who use older terms.

Of course, by the same token: spatha merely means sword (from spada); the using of the term for the semi-hilted celtic and latin swords is a modernism. So is Claidbegh for the one-handed basket-hilted claidmohr.

That being said; There are a couple or archaeologists arguing that the statuary depicts mail (chain) as opposed to ring, which traditionally is considered to predate chain. Technically, ring and bezanted are functionally nigh-identical; bezanted can become scale quite easily.

All of which were in common 5th century use in various places.

(Bezanted: coins, often Byzantine Bezants, or disks of metal affixed to substrate. Relative protection, similar to mail over leather.)

 

[Enpeze]

I also have a couple of books that suggest the celts invented chainmail armour - examples have definitely been found in archaeological digs if the museum exhibits I've seen are to be believed.

I have the same info.

 

[AKAramis]

I also have a couple of books that suggest the celts invented chainmail armour - examples have definitely been found in archaeological digs if the museum exhibits I've seen are to be believed.

I have the same info.

As do I; it is not, however, the normative armor of the celts, especially the western celts (iberia and britain). I'm not certain about the bce gauls; I've not been looking at their stuff.

Also, mail may not be a single invention item, since it arises in the orient as well.