5FW: Why?

[Sigtrygg]

G-compensation is covered by the maneuver drive, unless you're boosting output with reaction thrusters, which you can't buy compensation for anyway at this point.

I'll see what I can work up on the fighter front, though the Imperium would never use them, I suspect.

The problem is they would use them...

Mongoose changed the rules, then said those rules exist in the setting, and yet no ship designs using those rules have been retconned.

Every ship in HG2022 should have been rebuilt under the new paradigm - every capital ship will have a 9g drive for example. If fighters can have raction drives you can build them into capital ships too, and they have jump fuel reserves that allow their reaction drives to be on for longer.

I have said for years that the Third Imperium only tech should have been identified in HG, in the Third Imperium setting 6g used to be the maximum, it isn't anymore.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In theory, you have billions and trillions of humans that could be trained as fighter pilots.

Do it correctly, and you'll never run out of competent volunteers.

That's the Imperial method...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Until the ratio of them getting killed under the current rules scares them off. I have no idea what it would be, but I’d imagine it’s high.

So you don't tell them, you fill the news with tales of brave fighter pilots surviving a wall of point defence rapid pulse fusion hell. Weaving skillfully through the medium range laser net,k deftly outmaneuvering the particle beams, long range laser fire, avoiding the swarm of enemy dones and fighters...
You don't mention the 10,000 of his mates that didn't get through.

Nor do you show his attack run scratched the paint on the target...

 

[Sigtrygg]

It worked for the Empire.

This isn'Star Wars, in point of fact the biggest issue I have is bringing more Star Wars into the Third Imperium.

According to Traveller rules, the one thing we can't pirate, is software.

No but you can write your own, it may even work...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Also, what's the cost for a brain in a jar fighter?

Too grimdark?

Which one: clone, electronic, positronic, synthetic biological

Not grimdark at all, pretty standard sci fi trope.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sorry for the wall of replies, but this is an interesting discussion you lot are having while I am asleep

 

[MongooseMatt]

Sorry for the wall of replies, but this is an interesting discussion you lot are having while I am asleep

It really is

When it comes to fighters, I think (caveat - this is what we do unless a better idea comes along...) the approach we will take is not question whether fighters should exist. They have been there since the early days in Traveller, in a form that justified large warfighting carriers, so a better angle may be why they exist.

We have been looking at the use of fighters to erode the effectiveness of large ships (going for the sensors and point defence/turrets is an interesting angle), for example (especially as it plays into the new VHB approach to damage that I mentioned). Someone earlier raised the point that fighters in WWII were devastating against ships but the point was also made that space ships are not WWII battleships. Both true, but it might be worth considering the idea that aircraft were not all that against ships until decent bombs and torpedoes appeared - then they became lethal. Traveller fighters might also have something that makes them supremely suited for certain anti-ship roles, especially if they can fulfil that role cheaper than larger vessels that might actually be better on paper.

Drones and robots are also a thing, obviously, but I feel we have to have a care when using them in Charted Space. They are a major part of 2300AD, but Charted Space has always been about people - swarms of drones fighting in space might be very easy to justify, but they would change Charted Space in a powerful way.

You also raised the idea of speed of light weapons hitting automatically at close range - and we have considered this A few counterpoints... It does not make for a particularly good game; they already get very good bonuses, meaning a competent operator likely will be hitting with them; there is always the 'goofed up' factor to take into account; I have seen optical systems working in real life, and against moving targets they can simply just plain miss (TLs will help with that, obviously, but figure that the target also benefits from technology in some way).

We also need to think about Stealth in Space. Again, obvious issues there, but Rule of Cool is a powerful force, and a stealthy ship is just plain cool. As things stand, we make them very expensive at the high end, so stealthed capital are prohibitively expensive, giving one limiting factor. Maybe we could have some sort of system that splits the difference between detecting something, tracking something, and having sufficient 'sight' to actually lock on and make an attack rather than just trying to spray a huge area of space. So, a stealth ship within a certain range will almost always get detected, but actually being able to launch an attack against it is another issue. And then we have to make it all very simple in terms of mechanics so people do not fall asleep during play

To make clear, this is just a conversation at this time, and we are paying close attention to this thread

 

[Condottiere]

You breed, and/or clone, the survivors.

The odds should shift in favour of their off spring.

 

[Condottiere]

It really is

When it comes to fighters, I think (caveat - this is what we do unless a better idea comes along...) the approach we will take is not question whether fighters should exist. They have been there since the early days in Traveller, in a form that justified large warfighting carriers, so a better angle may be why they exist.

We have been looking at the use of fighters to erode the effectiveness of large ships (going for the sensors and point defence/turrets is an interesting angle), for example (especially as it plays into the new VHB approach to damage that I mentioned). Someone earlier raised the point that fighters in WWII were devastating against ships but the point was also made that space ships are not WWII battleships. Both true, but it might be worth considering the idea that aircraft were not all that against ships until decent bombs and torpedoes appeared - then they became lethal. Traveller fighters might also have something that makes them supremely suited for certain anti-ship roles, especially if they can fulfil that role cheaper than larger vessels that might actually be better on paper.

Drones and robots are also a thing, obviously, but I feel we have to have a care when using them in Charted Space. They are a major part of 2300AD, but Charted Space has always been about people - swarms of drones fighting in space might be very easy to justify, but they would change Charted Space in a powerful way.

You also raised the idea of speed of light weapons hitting automatically at close range - and we have considered this A few counterpoints... It does not make for a particularly good game; they already get very good bonuses, meaning a competent operator likely will be hitting with them; there is always the 'goofed up' factor to take into account; I have seen optical systems working in real life, and against moving targets they can simply just plain miss (TLs will help with that, obviously, but figure that the target also benefits from technology in some way).

We also need to think about Stealth in Space. Again, obvious issues there, but Rule of Cool is a powerful force, and a stealthy ship is just plain cool. As things stand, we make them very expensive at the high end, so stealthed capital are prohibitively expensive, giving one limiting factor. Maybe we could have some sort of system that splits the difference between detecting something, tracking something, and having sufficient 'sight' to actually lock on and make an attack rather than just trying to spray a huge area of space. So, a stealth ship within a certain range will almost always get detected, but actually being able to launch an attack against it is another issue. And then we have to make it all very simple in terms of mechanics so people do not fall asleep during play

To make clear, this is just a conversation at this time, and we are paying close attention to this thread

Rate of fire, magazine capacity, and power pools.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Wafer tech.
You download the personality/memory of those who survive, copy them into the control computer of the next batch. The ones that survive increase the skill of the next iteration ... and so it goes.

Stealth in space. The problem is heat. So once again I gift the Traveller community with the gravitic heat sink. Geir please take it and use it

The standard civilian version sends waste heat off to the gravitic coupling - so you get X amount of cooling from the various gravitic systems on a ship - there was a post about this somewhere...

the military could have a dedicated gravitic heat sink that costs a lot, is a small add on displacement wise to an existing gravitic system, but it increases the amount of waste heat the ship can "disappear"

All I need to do is peg EP to waste heat (H _w production and then determine the H _w points that the gravitic heat sink can cope with. There will be a limit though, but not exactly the BattleTech heat management system

 

[Sigtrygg]

You breed, and/or clone, the survivors.

The odds should shift in favour of their off spring.

Not without their memories they won't...

and before long you are selectively breeding combat types...

put them in armour with helmets so no one notices...

 

[Sigtrygg]

When it comes to fighters, I think (caveat - this is what we do unless a better idea comes along...) the approach we will take is not question whether fighters should exist. They have been there since the early days in Traveller, in a form that justified large warfighting carriers, so a better angle may be why they exist.

They have several roles:
scouts to extend the fleet sensor net
forward control of missile/drone swarms
counter missile drone swarm
customs inspection
search and rescue
gunships for planetary combat

We have been looking at the use of fighters to erode the effectiveness of large ships (going for the sensors and point defence/turrets is an interesting angle), for example (especially as it plays into the new VHB approach to damage that I mentioned). Someone earlier raised the point that fighters in WWII were devastating against ships but the point was also made that space ships are not WWII battleships. Both true, but it might be worth considering the idea that aircraft were not all that against ships until decent bombs and torpedoes appeared - then they became lethal. Traveller fighters might also have something that makes them supremely suited for certain anti-ship roles, especially if they can fulfil that role cheaper than larger vessels that might actually be better on paper.

The attrition rate for carrier based attack aircraft was pretty high...

look at the current conflict in the Red Sea, the Houthis are firing state of the art anti ship missiles and sending drone swarms with intel provided by Russian and Chinese satellites. So far not a single warship has been damaged (that we are being told)

soon laser and directed energy point defence will be an option...

Drones and robots are also a thing, obviously, but I feel we have to have a care when using them in Charted Space. They are a major part of 2300AD, but Charted Space has always been about people - swarms of drones fighting in space might be very easy to justify, but they would change Charted Space in a powerful way.

You already changed it with 9g, reaction drives, ion weapons etc etc.
Marc has already written a story about wafer controlled missiles... (Names)

You also raised the idea of speed of light weapons hitting automatically at close range - and we have considered this A few counterpoints... It does not make for a particularly good game; they already get very good bonuses, meaning a competent operator likely will be hitting with them; there is always the 'goofed up' factor to take into account; I have seen optical systems working in real life, and against moving targets they can simply just plain miss (TLs will help with that, obviously, but figure that the target also benefits from technology in some way).

TL9 is likely to have fixed that...

We also need to think about Stealth in Space. Again, obvious issues there, but Rule of Cool is a powerful force, and a stealthy ship is just plain cool.

See gravitic heat sink...

Post in thread 'Starship Operator's Manual Feedback'

May 6, 2024

Hmmm . . . That's an interesting thought.

What are some of your thoughts about spinoff applications, and how would it differ as compared to stronger nearby-gravity-well coupling?

Well for one thing your grav plates and acceleration compensation wouldn't lose effectiveness as you move away from planets if they are coupled with the background rather than the source the m-drive is coupled with.

Otherwise the question can be asked - why are lifters/null grav modules short range, m-drives are longer range, grav plates and acceleration compensation are not range limited at...

• Sigtrygg

• 

As things stand, we make them very expensive at the high end, so stealthed capital are prohibitively expensive, giving one limiting factor. Maybe we could have some sort of system that splits the difference between detecting something, tracking something, and having sufficient 'sight' to actually lock on and make an attack rather than just trying to spray a huge area of space.

How about expanded sensor rules so that active, passive and EW provide those options (MegaTraveller set the precedent which was continued in everything that followed). I've been tinkering with a mash up of Mongoose sensor rules (including T2300) and T4...

So, a stealth ship within a certain range will almost always get detected, but actually being able to launch an attack against it is another issue. And then we have to make it all very simple in terms of mechanics so people do not fall asleep during play

It should be like the Donnager battle in Expanse. Think about how this would play out in 2300.

Something is out there, it is getting closer, it will be in weapons range soon, do you want to go active? No. It is getting closer, it is now splitting into several signatures, do you want to go active? No
Passive sensors will soon reveal the nature of the bogies, but they are now well within... incoming missiles, activate point defence, evasive action.
Add a couple of passive sensor tasks and good to go

To make clear, this is just a conversation at this time, and we are paying close attention to this thread

 

[MasterGwydion]

Big ships have bigger engines, the square cube law in action. Or do we remove that as well for the sake of "pew pew"?

Square cube law doesn't apply as We do not use Mass. We only use volume which is not covered by the square cubed law. So, it has already been removed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Only up to a certain range, once inside that range then a lightspeed weapon should automatically hit.

Do you mean with no attack roll? Or do you mean that Evade Software shouldn't apply? Or do you mean that you can't use part of your acceleration for negative modifiers to the Gunners trying to shoot you?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Square cube law doesn't apply as We do not use Mass. We only use volume which is not covered by the square cubed law. So, it has already been removed.

The square cube law is to do with surface area vs volume, nothing to do with mass.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Do you mean with no attack roll? Or do you mean that Evade Software shouldn't apply? Or do you mean that you can't use part of your acceleration for negative modifiers to the Gunners trying to shoot you?

I mean it is physically impossible to move your ship one ship length in any direction in the time it takes the lighspeed weapon to hit you, so yes it automatically hits.

 

[Condottiere]

I think it comes down to the optimal use of available resources, when it comes to design and construction.

As for human resources, how many kids have wanted to be fighter pilots?

You encourage it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I mean it is physically impossible to move your ship one ship length in any direction in the time it takes the lighspeed weapon to hit you, so yes it automatically hits.

When I go to the shooting range, the target doesn't move, but I still do not hit the 10-ring 100% of the time.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The square cube law is to do with surface area vs volume, nothing to do with mass.

Since We were discussing acceleration, volume doesn't matter, only mass matters, so the square cube law doesn't apply. Eventhough We use volume instead of mass in Traveller, using the square cube law doesn't make sense for things such as acceleration. It does make sense for things such as sensor power and such.

 

[Sigtrygg]

When I go to the shooting range, the target doesn't move, but I still do not hit the 10-ring 100% of the time.

If you stand 1m from the target how often do you miss the 10 ring? How about at 0.5m?

A Traveller turret weapon can reliably hit a fighter sized target at 10,000km. As it comes closer the light speed weapon can not miss with the sort of accuracy they have to be able to hit at 10,000km.