Harry Lonsdale
Mongoose
Not "around" but "through".lastbesthope said:
"This is my 88 magnum. Shoots through schools." :twisted:
5 Point Battle Brakiri vs Gaim
- Thread starter tschuma
- Start date
"This is my 88 magnum. Shoots through schools." :twisted:
KennyBoy said:
Because that would be horribly good? I thought the whole point of having the immobile trait was to have a disadvantage - balanced by the numerous other advantages the Space stations have??
Also do you really want Patrol level stations to have that much range? :shock:
Again, you really need stations to outrange the basic weapon of the major fleets... or no station would ever survive a war.
DaBoss's abbai station would just die to any fleet with range 30 weapons, hell 25 given you can measure ranges.
You don't want a patrol station to be over powered, but there are lots of patrol ships with long range guns.
Ripple
DaBoss's abbai station would just die to any fleet with range 30 weapons, hell 25 given you can measure ranges.
You don't want a patrol station to be over powered, but there are lots of patrol ships with long range guns.
Ripple
IMHO it depends on what the station purpose is and therefore what its armaments are
If it is a large battle station than yes it should have long range weapons
However listning posts, defence sats, dockyards etc - perhaps strong point defences, shields etc or short range powerful weapons for sats.....but not convinced ALL stations should have l/R weapons.
yes they can get knocked out at range but thats why you need a mobile defence (ie ships) as well as stations. The stations support the ships and the ships ensure the stations can't be attacked with impunity art L/R
re patrol ships with L/R guns - mostly interceptable and small AD - combined with the fighters that most stations will have to go after them.
I can't see any patrol level ship staying alive versus a patrol level station in a straight fight?? or with the present rules any ship having a remote chance against a suposedly equal PL station?
As stated I would be happy for the Abbai to have a laser at 30" which gives all races a station with very long range weapons but they are not stupidly dominating of the whole table as the present system has them..52" range weapons!!..
I remain absolutely unconvinced they need anything more than this given they are also on a turret! - If they retained arcs I could maybe then see range being more flexible.
If it is a large battle station than yes it should have long range weapons
However listning posts, defence sats, dockyards etc - perhaps strong point defences, shields etc or short range powerful weapons for sats.....but not convinced ALL stations should have l/R weapons.
yes they can get knocked out at range but thats why you need a mobile defence (ie ships) as well as stations. The stations support the ships and the ships ensure the stations can't be attacked with impunity art L/R
re patrol ships with L/R guns - mostly interceptable and small AD - combined with the fighters that most stations will have to go after them.
I can't see any patrol level ship staying alive versus a patrol level station in a straight fight?? or with the present rules any ship having a remote chance against a suposedly equal PL station?
As stated I would be happy for the Abbai to have a laser at 30" which gives all races a station with very long range weapons but they are not stupidly dominating of the whole table as the present system has them..52" range weapons!!..
I remain absolutely unconvinced they need anything more than this given they are also on a turret! - If they retained arcs I could maybe then see range being more flexible.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Harry Lonsdale said:
Even the Death Star forgot it could shoot through planets, D'oh!
LBH
Oh I agree with you DaBoss on the overpoweredness of station right now, just disagree somewhat on your proposed answers.
Stations right now are too durable for time/turn limited games (damage points), but due to weapon ranges, if we use yours, too vulnerable in unlimited games depending on race and attacker.
An abbai stations fighters are laughable so I don't factor them in to most defense scenarios much. Shields do represent the only defense in the game right now that has the capacity to make something immune to small numbers of AD though...
As to the station purpose, I agree, but I thought that was the point of modules... build onto the station only what it would have for that purpose. I doubt a dock yard would have much in the way of defenses at all. AF/Interceptors maybe?
Mobile defenses are definitely a part of station defense, but I don't want to see a station with no interceptors being taken apart by a Narn Ion Cutter. In an unlimited game, its statistically inevitable that even a war level station would die to a Narn Ion Cutter if the there are no mobile defenses left.
I can fluff it off and say that eventually a ship will come, and that it happens to real world shore batteries etc... but I hate to set up that dynamic from the start.
Course I may be wrong on all of it, wouldn't be the first time. Just wanted to get the opinion out there... stations need to be a viable threat to a significant portion of the table, and be able to at least trade weak punches with anything that can hit them.
Immobile is a issue. The turret arc means you can't be outflanked, but the enemy chooses range, which can be important depending on the weapon mix, and you cannot avoid fighter swarms... or short ranged patrol swarms... etc.
This is written as a quck draft, so not organized or patched up... take it with a grain of salt, and understand I don't have the solutions myself right now, I just don't want us to fix one issue for most races then and re create issues we trying to solve elsewhere by creating races that just suck at another part of the game...
Ripple
Stations right now are too durable for time/turn limited games (damage points), but due to weapon ranges, if we use yours, too vulnerable in unlimited games depending on race and attacker.
An abbai stations fighters are laughable so I don't factor them in to most defense scenarios much. Shields do represent the only defense in the game right now that has the capacity to make something immune to small numbers of AD though...
As to the station purpose, I agree, but I thought that was the point of modules... build onto the station only what it would have for that purpose. I doubt a dock yard would have much in the way of defenses at all. AF/Interceptors maybe?
Mobile defenses are definitely a part of station defense, but I don't want to see a station with no interceptors being taken apart by a Narn Ion Cutter. In an unlimited game, its statistically inevitable that even a war level station would die to a Narn Ion Cutter if the there are no mobile defenses left.
I can fluff it off and say that eventually a ship will come, and that it happens to real world shore batteries etc... but I hate to set up that dynamic from the start.
Course I may be wrong on all of it, wouldn't be the first time. Just wanted to get the opinion out there... stations need to be a viable threat to a significant portion of the table, and be able to at least trade weak punches with anything that can hit them.
Immobile is a issue. The turret arc means you can't be outflanked, but the enemy chooses range, which can be important depending on the weapon mix, and you cannot avoid fighter swarms... or short ranged patrol swarms... etc.
This is written as a quck draft, so not organized or patched up... take it with a grain of salt, and understand I don't have the solutions myself right now, I just don't want us to fix one issue for most races then and re create issues we trying to solve elsewhere by creating races that just suck at another part of the game...
Ripple
hmm -I see what you are saying but I am just worried that a great concept will be wasted with the present unsuable rules.
re defences - I would agree a dockyard should not have high defences but presently the smallest station at Patrol gets 2 AF and 2 Interceptors (which also can be split against weapons) I thnk you are suggesting? (if not I will
) that maybe the defences should be a seperate module and the base hull gets nothing ? This would also allow the removal of interceptor defences from non interceptor using races - Shadows, Vorlons, Minbari, ? These already have powerful alternatives. Seems a good idea.
Ion Cutter versus a War level Space Station - will never hurt it - it has 10 interceptors basic ! They are also far more effective than ship based ones as they are a pool rather than always having to use full amount against one weapon.
the Abbai - it works both ways - I am not sure we want the Abbai (or anyone else) trying to kill a station with 52" range beams and interceptors? Even under my suggested ranges they are heavily out ranged.
I agree damage at present is way too high - the base damage needs to be halved at all levels.
I am still a little unsure that having 30/36" heavy weapons is outranged by fleets? The only weapons I can think off off hand are:
over 36" Gaim emines,
Over 30" Warlocks Neutron cannon, Kaliva's gun (which is interceptable), Minbari Advanced Neutron lasers,
If we keep the present weapons and their ranges as I see it the problems are three fold
1) There is a HUGE disparity in maximum range
from the Abbai, Brakiri, Centauri and Drazi - 27",
through Earth, Narn, Gaim, Vorlons - 45" :shock:
to the silly broken - ISA, Minbari - 52" :roll:
2) big guns on tiny stations - 4AD double damage Beam on Patrol station at 45" range, or worse a 4AD double Damage, Precise beam at 36" range
3) Domination - an average station say raid level will completely dominate the game - 10 hardpoints gives it 3 of the above weapons and will be hard to kill - if you can survive to get into range and there are few ships in a 5pt raid game that can take 12AD neutron laser each turn..........or even one turn. The controlling player hardly needs ships at all...........
re defences - I would agree a dockyard should not have high defences but presently the smallest station at Patrol gets 2 AF and 2 Interceptors (which also can be split against weapons) I thnk you are suggesting? (if not I will
) that maybe the defences should be a seperate module and the base hull gets nothing ? This would also allow the removal of interceptor defences from non interceptor using races - Shadows, Vorlons, Minbari, ? These already have powerful alternatives. Seems a good idea.Ion Cutter versus a War level Space Station - will never hurt it - it has 10 interceptors basic ! They are also far more effective than ship based ones as they are a pool rather than always having to use full amount against one weapon.
the Abbai - it works both ways - I am not sure we want the Abbai (or anyone else) trying to kill a station with 52" range beams and interceptors? Even under my suggested ranges they are heavily out ranged.
I agree damage at present is way too high - the base damage needs to be halved at all levels.
I am still a little unsure that having 30/36" heavy weapons is outranged by fleets? The only weapons I can think off off hand are:
over 36" Gaim emines,
Over 30" Warlocks Neutron cannon, Kaliva's gun (which is interceptable), Minbari Advanced Neutron lasers,
If we keep the present weapons and their ranges as I see it the problems are three fold
1) There is a HUGE disparity in maximum range
from the Abbai, Brakiri, Centauri and Drazi - 27",
through Earth, Narn, Gaim, Vorlons - 45" :shock:
to the silly broken - ISA, Minbari - 52" :roll:
2) big guns on tiny stations - 4AD double damage Beam on Patrol station at 45" range, or worse a 4AD double Damage, Precise beam at 36" range
3) Domination - an average station say raid level will completely dominate the game - 10 hardpoints gives it 3 of the above weapons and will be hard to kill - if you can survive to get into range and there are few ships in a 5pt raid game that can take 12AD neutron laser each turn..........or even one turn. The controlling player hardly needs ships at all...........
Good response.... thanks,
Yes, remove basic defense and make it module. Leave stations as a frame you hang things on.
Races that use dodge as a primary defense might need an active defense of some kind though, and stealth should really not be a primary defense as once you know where a station is, the stealth just shouldn't work anymore.
Halving hit points seems a good basic move, as right now they are definitely too high.
You skipped Narn/Brakiri e-mines... dropping them at 30 to catch the station in the blast at 33 and any 30 weapon in campaign with 21+ weapon with the targeting enhancements.
No station should have a weapon heavier than a ship of equivalent pl. Range should be longer to avoid the easy kills... but not heavier... no DD Beams on patrol at more than 1 AD.
Basically, modules of all types should add tiny incremental advantages, not primary weapons found on raid hulls, with the advantage being in range.
So if a raid base with its ten hardpoints had six hardpoints used up to buy 3 AD Beam (w/ DD or Precise) or 6 AD Beam range 40, two points for interceptors 2, and 2 points for AF 2, your getting much closer to what we want. It shoots first, and against most opponents once unopposed, and then has at least some defense.
Maybe monkey with crit interactions...
I like the idea behind the station frame, with modules adding functions. I would like to see them more modules adding defense, smaller weapon increments, more secondary functions that have campaign effects, limits on the modules used for weapons.
Ripple
Yes, remove basic defense and make it module. Leave stations as a frame you hang things on.
Races that use dodge as a primary defense might need an active defense of some kind though, and stealth should really not be a primary defense as once you know where a station is, the stealth just shouldn't work anymore.
Halving hit points seems a good basic move, as right now they are definitely too high.
You skipped Narn/Brakiri e-mines... dropping them at 30 to catch the station in the blast at 33 and any 30 weapon in campaign with 21+ weapon with the targeting enhancements.
No station should have a weapon heavier than a ship of equivalent pl. Range should be longer to avoid the easy kills... but not heavier... no DD Beams on patrol at more than 1 AD.
Basically, modules of all types should add tiny incremental advantages, not primary weapons found on raid hulls, with the advantage being in range.
So if a raid base with its ten hardpoints had six hardpoints used up to buy 3 AD Beam (w/ DD or Precise) or 6 AD Beam range 40, two points for interceptors 2, and 2 points for AF 2, your getting much closer to what we want. It shoots first, and against most opponents once unopposed, and then has at least some defense.
Maybe monkey with crit interactions...
I like the idea behind the station frame, with modules adding functions. I would like to see them more modules adding defense, smaller weapon increments, more secondary functions that have campaign effects, limits on the modules used for weapons.
Ripple
