40k Mod on the basis of the SST Core Rules

[Silvereye]

I'going to split my post, first one for the non-weapon discussion, I'll post again with the weapon discussion a bit later more in an attempt to de-clutter my comments somewhat.

Incidently, the 40K armies I have are Eldar, Space Marines, Deathwing and I'm slowly building a small force of Elysian Drop Troops (Imperial Guard).

Ewww. Few problems. The Storm Raven is ugly. Only two marine chapters use them (For some odd reason.) and it feels like a sad attempt by GW to make a Space Marine version of the Valkyrie. I'd be happy if none of use ever make stats for it.

Totally agree, It looks like a valkyrie crashed into a Land Raider and some heretical Techpriest or malfunctioning servitor welded the result back together. It's just so wrong in so many ways; an aesthetic disaster. However in seriousness, the Land Raider Crusader used to be limited to Crusading Chapters only. Now it (and all its variants) are available to every chapter.

I would be interested for your reasoning at some points.

Partly, it's because I'm fishing for your side of the argument as to why it should be so. Others, because I'm not sure myself and looking to explore the merits and flaws of one way or another.

Can you tell me the reason why I should reduce the movement value?

Mainly it is for future balance issues with the other races. For example, if the smaller Tyranids gribblies have to be Move 7-8" to be faster then the Marines, then the Guard, Orks, Eldar and Tau will be victims of that creep. With the -1", a Guardsman is Move 4", Space Marine in Power Armour is Move 5" and Terminator Armour is Move 4". The marine is still faster then a regular human (and probably the same Move as an Eldar), only being slowed down significantly by the bulk of the terminator armour, a nice touch which you had previously used anyway.

I have given them the Parry trait, because all the other elite troops (i.e. vanguard, sternguard, etc.) have this trait also. But you could be right with your suggestion. A fighter inside a Terminator armor is not to be able to parry an attack without a suitable weapon for it.

This was exactly what I thought your reasoning was. It could also make the differences in Assault and Tactical terminator squads roles more pronounced.

Ok it's true that a hit of 7+ is really hard. But I see no problem in that case. A terminator will probably cost around 200 points or more. For these points other army get enough troops or better weapons that give them a good chance to make a hit or kill at the Terminator. And the terminator armor is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer. And this point should be reflected in the values.

In many ways I do agree with Hit 7+. Terminators should be Space Hulk hard to fit the fluff - they are increadibly tough and very difficult to harm let alone kill. As you said, it "is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer", but a previous poster raised a very important point:

...it supposed to be a game. You need some balance.

I've played a few games where my opponent could not harm my forces after turn 1 shooting and vice versa (and not just 40K). They were probably the most boring games I've played, and were certainly not fun and generally ended after/during turn 2 after one of use realised what had happened. It's also one of the main reason I've pretty much given up regular 40K - some armies are just far superior to others - and just mainly play Apocalypse where you do not need to squeeze every point until it squeaks, and prefer combat patrol where you put serious limits on the power level.

I am really in two minds about this. One hand I want a fighting chance against any army without having to rely on tailoring a force. On the other I want to field a B###ard Hard Deathwing to live up to it's fluff.

I know that the Apothecary and the Techmarine are missing in my list. That's my mistake. I will create some profiles for them. But what kind of trait we can give them to distinguish them from other Marines. They have a special combat function, but I have no real idea how this can represent in the game.

Profiles wise, using either the Tactical Sergent or Sternguard (as I think they're suppose to be a little bit better then a Tactical Marine) profile is probably about right 'level'. So a similar profile to the Codicer Librarian.

Its their own way Apothecaries and Techmarines are both healer units, they keep the army fighting. Perhaps allow them to slowly heal back hits on 'dead' and damaged troops and vehicles. I also made a suggestion of the Techmarine adding extra Armour Asset slots later in the post. Additionally, you could allow limited access to some of the more non-standard gear for the Apothecary, and special gear/toys for the Techmarine (as well as servitors).

I like your Dreadnaught sugguestion.

Thanks, it has the benefit of a Rifleman dreadnaught (2x Ranged) being a very different close combat profile to the tactical dreadnaught (1x Ranged/1x DCCW) and Close Combat 2x DCCW builds.

A give them the 3+-save because in the original 40k-Rules the vindicator and the predator have the same armor values. I just think about it if I take the idea from the Evo rules with different values ??for the different sides of a tank. But I'm not sure right now if that is playable

It was one I wasn't to sure about but seemed to fit in with the fluff. The Vindicator is supposed to be a heavily up-armoured Rhino used for smashing fortifications. Its the kind of tank you'd expect to have the really hefty front armour.

-- Edit reflecting Arkon4000s additional comments --

You're right with your assumption. They are indeed officers. Their command authority ranks below the Chaplain and the Captain.

But how can we integrate them meaningfully into the command structure? If they have command authority, they should actually be moved into the HQ section.

We can renounce to give them the "Force Leader" Trait and let them in the Command Section and give them instead to provide additional Fleet Assets for the Army, like the Techmarine do it with the Armor Assets.

Why can't we do both? If we are considering breaking them into Codicer and Epistolary, then we could make the Codicer available through a Command Assest, and the Epistolary as a Force Leader selection (0-1/0-1/0-1 ?).

HQ
1. Space Marine Chapter Master (none / none / 0-1)
- Space Marine Honour Guard
- Space Marine Chapter Champion
- Space Marine Chapter Standard Bearer
2. Space Marine Captian (none / 0-1 / 1+)
- Master of the Arsenal
- Master of the Recruits
- Master of the Fleet
- Master of the Watch
2.1 Space Marine Command Squad
- Space Marine Apothecary
- Space Marine Company Champion
- Space Marine Company Standard Bearer
3. Space Marine Chaplain (none / 0-1 / 1+)
4. Space Marine Veteran (1 / 1-5 / any Number)

I have him as part of the command squad, because there is only one Apothecary per company. So I'm not sure if we should change that.

Oops, I missed that in the wall of text. I was looking inthe Command Assests section with Librarians and Techmarines. If you like the Librarian suggestion above, we may wish to alter the Veteran to (0-1/0-5/Any number) so the PL 1 slot has the choice between a Veteran or an Epistolary Librarian

Have you not seen the Scout Bike Squadron and the Land Speeder Storm? They are unlimited on all Priority levels. In my view the mission of the space marine scouts are the partols and the reconnaissance. The normal Bike Squadrons are for hit and run missions or for fast assaults. And based on the Codex Astrates only the Assault Marines of the battle companies and all members of the 8. Reserve Company drive the bikes and attack bikes.

Yes, I'd seen the availability of the Scout assets and agree with you about their primary use being recon and harassment. I also still think my suggestion of Assault Marine assets is also valid. They are the kind of forces you can rapidly re-deploy to meet an unexpected threat, or would fill in the recon role should Scouts not be available. Certainly I think they should be as available as Devastators.

This transport option, they should definitely get and I had listed that in the appropriate unit description also. But I would like to make this option depend on the availability of appropriate Armor Assets. They still have their teleport option to arrive the battlefield.

You could be right that there are too few slots. But I'm not sure what number is reasonable for one Techmarine.

We could actually combine these two along the lines of the Ironclad Dreadnaught. So the Landraider (or Ironclad) still costs an Armoury Asset slot, but is made as a transport option for Terminators and available at lower PLs as a result.

Additionally, extra gear in the Armoury - Teleport Homers, speciallist Siege Gear - minefields and fortifications.

No problem with that. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition because I like the weapon.

I like it too, but it's best to leave some of the cool toys for the other armies instead of making it, or an equivalent, available to the Space Marines.

Your reasoning is correct. But how we can implement this meaningful, that they are used only for defense missions?

See my comment for the Librarian. I would like to add that we can make them unlimitedly available and control their selection with the available Fleet Assets. What do you thinking about that idea?

I agree it is a difficult thing to make meaningfull. While drop pods are also equally viable for a defensive mission (getting emergency reinforcements to a battlefield) they are also used to spearhead the plaentary assault. I do like the suggestion of making them unlimited, but controlling there availability with another unit e.g. Librarians or the Master of the Fleet.

Additionally, should the Vindicator have the same availablitiy as a Predator?

 

[Arkon4000]

@Silvereye

I update my comments of your post. They are now complete. I'm looking forward to your comments.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[Silvereye]

Dammit. And I'd nearly caught up

 

[Arkon4000]

Dammit. And I'd nearly caught up

No problem. Take your time and do not stress. Work through your entire points, cost me also a lot of time. So don't panik!

Greetz
Arkon

 

[Silvereye]

I've updated the Non-weapon discussion post above to include your later comments.

 

[Arkon4000]

Hi Community,

So before I discuss the new comments from Silvereye, I would like to discuss a issue that resulted from the old thread and I'm still in trouble with it. So I had saved the old thread, I'm in the lucky postion that I can add that part of the discussion that deals with this problem. At that time I had unfortunately no opportunity to take part in this discussion.

As to the Heavy Bolters, at first glance you think they should be exactly the same. It's the same weapon after all. Then you remember that the Damage roll is a combination of a to-hit roll and a to-wound roll. So they can be different, as could be the Range (Space marines are a much better shot etc). I would keep the traits the same though (it is the same ammunition and weapon body).

Surely that's what the Veteran and Elite traits that the space marine has represent? There's no need to count it twice.

Astartes calibre bolters are bigger than 'normal' bolters (see Deathwatch) but the heavy bolter is an emplaced two-man weapon anyway when guardsmen are handling it (I'd use the Reliant gun-platform rules) so there's no reason for it to be that weedy.

But the Space Marine scout is just as good a shot as an Imperial Guard Veteran. The IG Veteran will use the Veteran trait to get the bonuses whilst the SM Scout just has his genetic engineering and 'basic' training. It does mean that Tactical/Devastator Marines will be better then Scouts and [*] guard will be even more capable with the same kit. Which is probably as it should be.

[*] whatever veteran space marine noun/adjective/verb-guard it might be.

Silvereye and Locarno were both right with their arguments.

Locarno had recognized correctly that I'm implemented the veteran and elite traits to be able to represent the better overall fighting skills of the Marines. The traits should also compensate that the number of fighting models within the SM army will always be smaller than the number of the enemy. The Space Marines simply can hardly allow to make mistakes.
However, Silvereyes reasoning had shown me my mistake that I had not really considered in this form. When I create the profiles of the weapons, I have not think about that the attack roll is a combination of the roll to hit and the roll to wound. I completely focused on the weapon damage. And Silvereye's example with the IG veteran and the SM Scout show me clear the main problem of the traits "Veteran" and "Elite".

This problem is getting bigger by the increasing number of different units. Especially we have the additional problem that there are also differences in the combat skills within the armies. This also prevents a change of the weapons profiles because different fighters use the same weapon within the army.

Hence the question is how we solve this problem simply and elegantly? I think with re-rolls we don't solve the problem satisfactorily.

I'm grateful for any comments and criticisms for that problem.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[locarno24]

Marksman: The firer gains +1 to all damage rolls with ranged weapons. This does not apply when using weapons with the Artillery trait or weapons with a Lethal Zone.

Much like Veteran and Elite, but makes things faster as you're not re-rolling dice.

Yes, you have the risk that you become able to hurt something you couldn't hurt before, but if you're only 1 point shy of a hit then I don't think it's especially unreasonable that a particularly gifted shot couldn't hit a weak point.

If you really want to restrict it, make it the equivalent of the old sniper rifle rules (i.e. +1 when used on size 1 or 2 targets); so anything 'vehicle' or analogous doesn't get the benefit - the problem on something that size is no longer hitting it, it's getting through the plate.

 

[Arkon4000]

Marksman: The firer gains +1 to all damage rolls with ranged weapons. This does not apply when using weapons with the Artillery trait or weapons with a Lethal Zone.

Much like Veteran and Elite, but makes things faster as you're not re-rolling dice.

Yes, you have the risk that you become able to hurt something you couldn't hurt before, but if you're only 1 point shy of a hit then I don't think it's especially unreasonable that a particularly gifted shot couldn't hit a weak point.

If you really want to restrict it, make it the equivalent of the old sniper rifle rules (i.e. +1 when used on size 1 or 2 targets); so anything 'vehicle' or analogous doesn't get the benefit - the problem on something that size is no longer hitting it, it's getting through the plate.

I know this rule and I have considered also in account. But it solves the problem not completely just because this creates the problem that you can destroy things that were not damaged before.

I see four levels of skills within the different armies. Green (like orcs, recruits and other guys who are not able to hit a barn door.), Trained (IG-Guardsmen, Eldar Soldiers, etc.), Veteran (Space Marines, etc.) and Elite (Captains, Chapter Masters, Chaos Generals, etc.)

How should we represent them with this rule?

I've thought about it instead of a damage bonus to award additional bonus dice when using long range weapons. The experienced troops would get more lethal without any additional brakes for the gameplay. In addition, we could remove the greenhorns same dice to represent their ineffective weapons fire.

For example:
Green (- 1D per Model)
Normal (no bonus)
Veteran (+1D per Model)
Elite (+2D per Model)

But I'm not sure if this idea can be implemented.

I'm grateful for any comments and criticisms for that idea or other proposed solutions for that problem.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[Silvereye]

Ok, this might be a bit disjointed in places. And I'll try and gather some thoughts about skill levels.

Please remember that we create a mod and don't make a 1:1 transfer. This does not work, for that the differences are too great between the both rulesets. I take the original rules as a source of inspiration but the fluff serves also as a source.

True, and it is something I was failing to grasp properly, particularly with the Piercing trait. Trying to keep within the 40K equivalents (power weapons ignoring saves), I tended to overpowering most of the close combat weapons in this respect.

Nice idea, but I'm not sure if it make sense to set the piercing so high. The weapon has a high attack roll for CC and the chance is great that you reach very often the kill value of an enemy unit. In these cases the piercing is useless. A Piercing of 3 makes it for the adopted unit difficult enough to make a successful armor save.

It should have read 3xD10+3. Against most infantry, it is likely overkill. Fitting for what it is. The piercing is for use against vehicles, many of which may have higher Kill scores and thick armour. It might also apply to attacking things like Terminators (and maybe the Monstrous Tyranids, Tau battlesuits and Eldar wraith constructs). But as you say, Piercing/3 makes it a difficult armour save to make.

What about 2x DCCW (Furioso) build? Could try something modifying the DCCW along the lines of the Pair of Lightning claws?

DCCW - CC: 3xD10+3, Traits: Piercing/3
Pair of DCCWs - CC: 4xD10+4, Traits: Piercing/4

I've taken the slow trait, because I wanted to represent the lower initiative from the original 40k rules. But the Ready trait could solve this problem even better. I think it's fair that a model with one of these weapons, can also use them against the enemy if it has time to prepare for the attack and gets the opportunity to act or react... I took a moment to think about it and I like the idea and it makes sense if you imagine it in a real fight.

I did think that was why you went with Slow. And while it kind of fits, I thought Ready would make more sense as it implies your preparing for a Haymaker type strike/Grabbing and Ripping something off/Cutting a big hole into something.

Multihit is nice. That is a suitable trait for the weapon. But what shall we do with the damage value? Should we set a fixed value like the Dreadnaught CCW or do we leave it at the lucky roll of the additional D6? The increase of the piercing depends on the damage value...

Same question like above. Fix value or variable value?

Ready and Killshot fit well, but with the Killshot trait we need no more piercing (score hit = score kill => no armor save). Which damage value should we set for this weapon?

Oops. Good catch with the Piercing and Killshot. I think that one was copy/paste.

Some thoughts on damage of power weapons in general. What if a generic power weapon just add +1 to the users Piercing Trait or grants it at 1 if they do not have it?

We could them have a low-power type attack profile for the Chain Fist, Power Fist, and Thunderhammer which just count them as Power Weapons. However, with the Ready Action then you then use the alternate profile to attack with. As to damage values of this alternate attack, the bonus needs to be worth while to use the Ready action as opposed to just making two regular attacks.

However, as Tactical and Assault Terminators both attack at 2xD10 and Piercing/2, I'd suggest dropping them back to Piercing/1. The standard power weapon bonus inherent in all their gear (including a Chaplains Crozius?) would then bring them back to Piercing/2. As would be marine sergents with power weapons.

However, an imperial guard sergent or howling banshee would only be piercing/1 with a power weapon. Perhaps this is a bit weak. If we make the default bonus Piercing/+2 this does power up the Space Marines further, but they are genetically modified super humans so I'm a bit less concerned. Another option is to drop Piercing from the Space Marine profile - brought back through gear (chainswords, pistols, power weapons etc.), or just make power weapons a flat Piercing/2

So for example (I went with the less random profiling, though there is nothing to stop you going with more randomness either if it seems to fit the concept better):

Chain fist - CC: 2xD10+2, Traits when Ready: Multi-hit, Piercing/3
Power fist - CC: 2xD10+2, Traits when Ready: Piercing/3
Thunder hammer - CC: 2xD10+3, Traits when Ready: Killshot
The above three Close Combat Weapons may be used without a ready action with the following profile
CC: As weilder, Traits: Piercing/+1

Single Lightning claw - CC: As weilder, Traits: Piercing/+1
Pair of Lightning claws, CC: +1xDice+1, Traits: Parry, Piercing/+1

Notes:
* Assault terminator with Pair of Ligtning claws would be CC: 3xD10+1, Traits: Parry, Piercing/2
* When a Marine Sergent gets a power fist he'd get the same Ready Attack bonus so his basic CC: 2xD6+2 Piercing/2 attack becomes 2xD10+2 piercing/3 when readied with a power fist.

Why such a short range?

Because it's a small pistol, not much room in it for pressurisation gear and fuel, they also had silly small templates in 40K 2e and Necromunda. The other option, perhaps, is to just use it as a One Shot flamer.

Meltagun & Multi-melta...

Thanks for the reminders folks, my brain did eventually put two and two together properly a few hours after posting.

Do you really think it makes sense to increase the range? A shotgun is still a weapon for close combat or for very short range. The Slow trait also makes not illogical impression on me. Can you please explain to me why you think these changes make sense?

Yes, I do think they need to increase in range particularly to make them preferable to pistols, especially so if you decide to keep the slow trait. 15" is the same range as a re-statted heavy flamer, and the bolt and plasma pistols. Slug shot is generally statted at a greater range then buckshot in most game sytems (perhaps not the best of reasons). The AA-12 (below) has a range of 100m listed.

With droppign slow, I was going for the semi-automatic assault shotgun idea instead of the break open, breach loading antique shotgun. In particular this thing - Auto Assault-12 (I think it was used in the film Predators) - also Franchi SPAS-12 (has an attachment that spreads buck shot into a plane and can single load individual rounds), NeoStead 2000 (two seperate magazines to select from) and Pancor Jackhammer.

Please remember that we create a mod and don't make a 1:1 transfer. This does not work, for that the differences are too great between the both rulesets. I take the original rules as a source of inspiration but the fluff serves also as a source.

Another thing is that the armor save modifier of -1 from the second Edition is based on a different ruleset. Especially the cover rules are different than in the SST. In the SST-rules cover give a bonus to the armor save and no modifier to the roll to hit.

Hence the piercing represents not only the armor penetration of a weapon but also the ability of a cover penetration. And if you want to base the piercing on the AP 5 from the current edition, then please remember what this value means. The weapon ignore all armor saves of 5+ and 6+. If you want transfer this 1:1 to the SST rules, then you must give the weapon a piercing of 2. (save 5 + piercing 2 = 7 => not possible on D6 - the same counts for the 6+ save)

I'm not convinced they should be AP5 in 40K. We're talking about a 20mm rifle that uses rocket assisted rounds with explosive cores. Closest thing we have to that today is the Neopup PAW-20. If you've seen the movie District 9. It was the rifle Colonel Koobus used to finally bring down the Prawn battlesuit in the end.. And the Neopup isn't even rocket assisted for that extra armour penetrating goodness!

I keep forgetting that the cover system in SST (ads to armour) is different to BF:Evo (adds to Hit and Kill scores). With Arkon’s explanation and Wolfprophet’s example I’m converted.

Why should I redcue the range? I see no reason for that... Ok in the original rules the boltgun has a maximum range of 24" but I have discussed this issue with another game designer (he create a new 40k ruleset) and he has come for his system to the same view as me. The range is simply too short for this weapon. Hence we have taken both 30 inches as range for the boltgun.

Again, its a throw back to GWs 40K rules (especially as 24" scales to around 50m?). I do agree that the rifle type weapons should have longer ranges. And doing so would make a different game to how GW rules play, which favours surviving being shot to get into close combat.

Any range increase needs to be factored into the other races weapons such as the Guardsmans 20" lasgun as it currently stands.

Additionally, range can be used to represent how far a soldier is capable of shooting accutrately. So a 40K BS of 4 is more accurate then BS 3. Perhaps the effective weapon range could be also increased to take this into account.

Also, I can't remember if SST had the Ready action to allow shots at double range (by re-rolling hits)?

The [Auto]-trait is a special trait that is supposed to represent the different combat tactics of the Space Marines on the battlefield. When the Marines split their squads and everyone is fighting alone, they use aimed shots. This is represented by using of the 3"-LZ around the target unit.

If they work together as a squad or fire team, the 3"-zone make no sense, because too many potential hits would find no more targets. Hence a unit of Space Marines would create the normal Auto-zone of 6 " for their boltguns.

It ultimately depends on how we want Marines to work.

From the first post, I was under the impression the army (save for scout squads) was made up of individual models. And like you described, would use the small bursts of 'aimed' shots approach rather then the blaze wildly. I don't think there is anything stopping you specifying a different fire zone with a second (or third) action.

Perhaps having the marines operate in small teams to support each other, rather then individually would go a long way to helping this. I’ll post some thoughts on this shortly

The Storm bolter is more then just two bolters stuck together. It fires more shots and each terminator is more likely to need and use the Auto fire zone.

Ok I think the "slow" trait not fit for this weapon. The weapon should be able to react. The "Heavy" trait should avoid that a model shoot with this weapon if it use their special ability "Shoot on the run". So I think we keep this trait. I'm not sure about the "Ready" Trait. I think we should try both in a test game.

On increasing the penetration I have to think because the weapon already has a very high damage roll. In addition, the weapon receives a bonus depending on the size of the target model. Hence the probability is very high that the gun often throws a kill.

I was thinking a Ready action to reflect a getting the best out of a shot. There is also nothing that suggests a user of a sniper weapon shouldn’t be able to react with it. However, the reaction shot will be far from optimal for the weapon.

Quick thought on the Sniper Rifle though. I think they should be rather universal for the most part. An Imperial sniper rifle for the IG wouldn't be much different from a modern M40 rifle in terms of power (the Lasgun itself is equated as being about as strong as a G3/FAL/CETME rifle.) the Astartes sniper rifle is powered by an extra energy pack, but is otherwise just an upgraded IG sniper rifle... So, I suppose for sake of ease, we can just take the Barret .50 cal sniper stats from one of the other books for it. No need to overcomplicate a sniper weapon by tacking on tons of traits.

Wolfprophet's idea works for me for the Imperial Tech. Copy what the SST sniper systems (or Modern) use and tweak as necessary? It should also serve as a useful starting point for the Eldar's Ranger Long Rifle and the Vindicare Assassin's rifle.

Why would I do that? Is it too crazy, to differentiate the weapons more? Why should a terminator use the same assault cannon, like a Dreadnought? Why should not there be multiple power levels for the lascannon? I would like to take opportunity that offer this mod to revised some mistakes and nonsense of GW.

Because currently you have, for example, Las-cannon, Twin-linked Las-cannon, Devastator Lascannon, Annihilator Las-cannon, Twin-linked Godhammer Las-cannon. I do think that there can be some variability (especially as you point out with the Dreadnaught/Terminator Assault cannon), but I think that there needs to be a bit of simplicity as essentially the weapons are pretty much the same (just a couple of points of damage and the Twin-linked Las-cannon and Annihilator Las-cannons are exactly the same). Complexity can just bog a game down.

The AA-trait makes perfect sense for this missile, and would also represent a good supplement to the onboard system.
<snip>

I think about it. What do you think about the idea that we put this two weapons together in one weapon?

Hunter Killer Missile - Example
Range: unlimited
Damage: D10+5
Traits: Killshot - LZ (2") - one-shot - AA - Agile - Direct Fire - Free

I do like the idea of combining them, it provides space marines a useful bit of AA without having to rely on the Imperial Guard or Imperial Navy. My only concern is the Agile Trait. I don't think the Imperium would uses highly advanced and precious 'logic engine' able to track and adapt to a flyer's evasive movements in a cheaply available and disposable munition, theyed just issue you with lots more dumb missiles to shoot. Remember, the imperial guard can tool up with loads of these things. Tau seeker missiles on the other hand.... The Free trait certainly fits.

I'd maybe consider changing the Missile Launchers AA round to reduce the Damage a bit, and drop the Agile.

As I have already written above, the "Heavy" trait should avoid that a model shoot with this weapon if it use their special ability "Shoot on the run". The Question now which trait we keep in the profiles. I think the Heavy Trait is ok. But about the "Ready" and the "Slow" Trait, we should discuss.

1. Should a heavy weapon to be able to react or not? (slow)
2. When a heavy weapon is able to react, should this reaction require a "Ready" Action or not? (Ready)

Hmm, difficult. There are also pros and cons to each, especially with how this would go down with the other races.

About these weapons, I thought long and hard. I have discussed this problem with Galatea, and we have solved the problem on the same principle as the twin fifty from SST. This weapon also has the double damage profile of a single caliber .50 BMG.

I see no problem on this weapons with this stats. The weapons lost their rerolls for the roll to hit from the original 40k-rules but get the double damage chance(!!). All weapons of all other armies that work this way, I would treat in the same way. That is not specific for the Space Marines.

OK, I like that we have a rules precedent. We can then simply describe Twin-linking a weapon as rolling double attack dice.

Your proposal for the Hurricane Bolter System sounds good. You're right, that a damage profile would be pretty hard with 12 dices per system. However, we are talking about an assault vehicle which is intended to strike breaches. So the Hurricane Bolter System should be able to cause corresponding damage. I have to think about it...

Yep, I thought 12 dice to start with, then remembered a vehicle also mounts two of these systems. 2 times 12xD6+2 does not bear thinking about. Thats why I halved the Dice and used multi-hit to incraese the damage of shots. It does make it particularly effective against Space Marine equivalent infantry though.

Dreadnought Assault Cannon
Range: 40"
Damage: 5x D6+3
Traits: Piercing/2 - Auto

Terminator Assault Cannon
Range: 30"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

I made this profile as a proposal for the assault cannon to make the weapon more special. From my perspective, it makes no sense that Terminators and Dreadnoughts use the same weapon.

My reasoning was assumed that the terminator weapon is something that is comparable to today's minigun or mircogun.

The basic idea for the Dreadnought weapon was that is comparable to a weapon like the GAU-8 Avenger. A great walker should be able to carry a larger weapon than a servo-supported armour.

My profiles are based on the Sixgun from SST and on the GAU from Modern Combat. The only additional traits that would make sense for me yet, would be "Prone" and "Multihit". Prone only for the Terminator Weapon and Multihit for both weapons.

Both definitely needs work, the Terminator Assault cannon is just a poor version of the heavy bolter.

There is also the assault cannon on the Land-speeder and the twin-assault cannons on the Land Raider Crusader and Baal Predator. I'd go for vehicle mounted (Dreadnaught) and Terminator versions.

Destructor Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 2x D10
Traits: Piercing/2

Twin-Linked Autocannon
Range: 50"
Damage: 4x D6+2
Traits: Piercing/1 - Auto

Let me explain why I would like to split this weapon. Based on the strength of autocannon from 40k I've written the first profile. This profile has been criticized as being too strong, because the Predator not only has access to this weapon. But a reduction of the weapon profile would made a Predator with this weapon nearly useless.

So I've considered how to divide the weapon useful. The main gun of a tank will certainly have a larger caliber than 30 or 40mm, so it was the only logical way, in my view, to use the first profile for the main gun. The twin-linked Autocannon is the only weapon of this type that is used in addition of the Space Marines. The Dreadnought can use it for example.

Here is the problem that this weapon is in direct competition with the assault cannon. Because the profile looks a little worse in comparison to the assault cannon, I had the following idea to make the weapon still attractive. We should give this weapon the "AA" Trait, because anti-aircraft guns are in short supply at the Space Marines anyway. And the Dreadnought can use two weapons of this type, one in each arm. With the AA-Trait for the weapon he become a good platform for anti aircraft fire. (Like the riflemen from Battletech )

I kind of agree in splitting them into multiple sizes as the modern IFV autocannon seems to cover everything from 25mm (Bradley) to 100mm+ (BMP-3). Just as long as it has a high rate of fire.

The Destructor Autocannon I agree with you, strong is good and appropriate. I'd probably increase to piercing/3 and maybe add a LZ. The Annihilator turret would still be an upgrade on a predator. The Baal turret would still offer something different.

In the Dreadnaught role, it has to compete with the Dreadnaught assault cannon (40" 5xD6+3 Auto, Piercing/2), and twin-linked heavy bolter (40" 6xD6+3 Auto, Piercing/2, Multi-hit) (twin-linked las cannon and the missile launcher are for different roles)

The twin-linked autocannon can also fit as a reaper autocannon for Chaos Terminators, and could loose the twin-link for the Imperial guard man portable version. Hydra's and the Russ variant (and chimera upgrade?) could be based of the predator version.

Assault Cannon and Autocannon definitely need some thoughts.

Why do you think that we have to reduce the range for the weapon? I know that the weapon is a siege weapon for a siege tank but if the range is to short the weapon is not really effective.

Its the 40K throwback issue form before again. You can discount this suggestion.

See my comment for the melta. I have set this trait, because I think the weapon is very powerful and even more if they have unlimited supply. But what is the reason that you think we have to remove the trait?

Mainly just down to reducing the amount of record keeping. They are also sort of self limiting as they can only be placed with the use of a Ready action.

I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition.

I'm glad you didn't use the weapons, missiles and grenades from Rogue Trader.

 

[Silvereye]

Ok, for the army skill levels, it might be worth throwing some ideas together and see what we can come up with for the basic troops of each race and their standard ranged weapon. Then we can see how they compare to each other.

e.g (Wolfprophets Guardsman, and Arkon4000s marines).

Imperial Guard Trooper
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: D6-1, Target: 3+, Save: 6+/-, Kill 5+
Traits: None
Equipment: lasgun, frag grenades

Tactical Space Marine
Size: 1, Move: 6", CC: D6+2, Target: 5+, Save: 3+/-, Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2, Independent, Shoot on the run, Veteran
Equipment: Boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades

Space Marine Scout
Size: 1, Move: 6", CC: D6+1, Target: 4+, Save: 4+/5+, Kill: 8+
Traits: Hits/2, Ambush, Specialist, Shoot on the run, Stealthy (2")
Equipment: Bolt pistol, frag grenades

Eldar Guardian
Size: 1, Move: 5", CC: D6, Target: 3+, Save: 5+/-, Kill 5+
Traits: Fleet
Equipment: Shuriken catapult, plasma grenades

Tau Fire Warrior
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: D6-1, Target: 3+, Save: 4+/-, Kill 5+
Traits:
Equipment: Pulse rifle, photon grenades

Ork Boy
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: 2xD6+1, Target: 4+, Save: 6+/-, Kill 6+
Traits: Specialist
Equipment: Choppa, slugga

Termagant
Size: 1, Move: 6", CC: D6-1, Target: 3+, Save: 6+/-, Kill 5+
Traits: Fleet, Specialist
Equipment: Fleshborer

Necron Warrior
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: D6+2, Target: 5+, Save: 3+/-, Kill 10+
Traits: Hits/2, Independent, Veteran, We'll be back equivalent
Equipment: Gauss flayer

 

[locarno24]

I know this rule and I have considered also in account. But it solves the problem not completely just because this creates the problem that you can destroy things that were not damaged before.

That's where the size limit on the target for the rule comes in; so it doesn't help you in dropping light vehicles (for example)

It also means (where you've got a version giving you a penalty) that you don't suffer a penalty when trying to take out a land raider from 3" away - it's the size of a barn door, after all...

 

[Arkon4000]

Ok, for the army skill levels, it might be worth throwing some ideas together and see what we can come up with for the basic troops of each race and their standard ranged weapon. Then we can see how they compare to each other.

e.g (Wolfprophets Guardsman, and Arkon4000s marines).

Imperial Guard Trooper
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: D6-1, Target: 3+, Save: 6+/-, Kill 5+
Traits: None
Equipment: lasgun, frag grenades

Tactical Space Marine
Size: 1, Move: 6", CC: D6+2, Target: 5+, Save: 3+/-, Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2, Independent, Shoot on the run, Veteran
Equipment: Boltgun, bolt pistol, frag grenades

Space Marine Scout
Size: 1, Move: 6", CC: D6+1, Target: 4+, Save: 4+/5+, Kill: 8+
Traits: Hits/2, Ambush, Specialist, Shoot on the run, Stealthy (2")
Equipment: Bolt pistol, frag grenades

Eldar Guardian
Size: 1, Move: 5", CC: D6, Target: 3+, Save: 5+/-, Kill 5+
Traits: Fleet
Equipment: Shuriken catapult, plasma grenades

Tau Fire Warrior
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: D6-1, Target: 3+, Save: 4+/-, Kill 5+
Traits:
Equipment: Pulse rifle, photon grenades

Ork Boy
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: 2xD6+1, Target: 4+, Save: 6+/-, Kill 6+
Traits: Specialist
Equipment: Choppa, slugga

Termagant
Size: 1, Move: 6", CC: D6-1, Target: 3+, Save: 6+/-, Kill 5+
Traits: Fleet, Specialist
Equipment: Fleshborer

Necron Warrior
Size: 1, Move: 4", CC: D6+2, Target: 5+, Save: 3+/-, Kill 10+
Traits: Hits/2, Independent, Veteran, We'll be back equivalent
Equipment: Gauss flayer

Hi Silvereye,

Thank you for your ideas for the different basic units. Before I work on your great comment, I wanted to comment that point at first. Your ideas is certainly understandable. But I would like to know if you have taken the initiative into account for the movement distances. This point was discussed in the old thread, because the initiative is not considered in the SST system.

In my view, we can only consider this point about the speed of a model. Because the melee is fighting from only one side, a model with high initiative has a higher movement value than a model with low initiative. This point we should definitely consider, if we define the movement distances.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[Silvereye]

But I would like to know if you have taken the initiative into account for the movement distances. This point was discussed in the old thread, because the initiative is not considered in the SST system.

In my view, we can only consider this point about the speed of a model. Because the melee is fighting from only one side, a model with high initiative has a higher movement value than a model with low initiative. This point we should definitely consider, if we define the movement distances.

To a degree, mostly its what kind of feels right. I did considered modifing Move and CC based on WS and I. But races like Orks, Tau and Necrons seemed to be overly penalised by doing it this way, both in terms of battlefield mobility and CC potential. I've sort of included it in CC (based off WS, S and I) and I'm kind of considering doing something with fleet instead to represent the faster movement. I'm wondering about a bonus move (50% of stat) at the start (or end?) of the owning players turn. I think a free move action could be a bit much. Alternatively, we could look at doing something with reactions.

Marksman/Veteran

Why should the veteran guy with the anti-tank gun or the close-combat elite suffer because its just apllied to shooting attacks against infantry size models?

Some thoughts to throw in to the pot, feel freee to discuss/discard:

• * Minor modifications to the weapons profile, particulalrly Range (e.g ±10% to ±25%) and definitely not traits as the weapon still fires the same ammunition. This can grade the differences as the more experienced guys can make better use of their ranged attacks. Does not help out in CC though.
  * Re-rolling 1s. (I think they may have been bad in SST?)
  * Re-rolling 6s (for the really unskilled) or losing an Action.
  * Additional action (Elite).
  * Additional/reduced reactions.
  * Artillery could manipulate the deviation of the shot (e.g. ±1 to dice rolls) better targeting and not damage.

 

[Arkon4000]

Hi Community,

so that we are all at the same level for the discussion of the weapon systems, I have added the new traits of the pk-mod by Galatea. I think this should make it easier to develop a common basis. In addition, it is understandable for those people who did not know the previously used traits.

Unit Traits

Advanced Sensors (X”) / Advanced Senses (X”)
The model automatically detects any hidden models placed in an ambush position in X” around itself. This takes place whenever the model completed an action. The controlling player has to say that he is looking for an ambush and measure the sensor range of his models. If he forgoes this his models are assumed too busy with other things than watching their sensor screens.

Advanced Sensors may be affected by enemy ECM, Advanced Senses not.

Advanced Thrusters (X)
The air unit may choose it's facing freely if flying at (X) speed. Place a marker at it's base to keep track of it's heading.

The air unit still follows the normal air rules (speed, turning) exept that it's facing does not have to match with it's direction of travel.

The air unit may only move faster than (X) speed if it's facing matches it's direction of travel (again).

Air Defence Array (X”)
The model has advanced sensors or sharp senses enabling it to detect incoming air units at far. During the air phase it may react with a shoot action to enemy air units completing an action within X” of it.

AI
This model is controlled by a (more or less) sophisticated artificial intelligence. This trait is important in conjunction with some electronic warfare devices and several psychic talents that do not affect non-organic units.

Ambush
The model/unit may be deployed in an ambush position. Write the location of the unit down at the start of the game before any models are placed. The unit may be hidden in any piece of terrain (please use common sense here – you can't place a unit of 15 Mimics in a stone barely the size of a Trooper).

The model/unit may be revealed at any time during the game but may only react to enemy units that completed an action in their reaction radius AFTER they have been revealed.

The unit must be revealed until the end of turn four (or in games longer than 6 turns before 2/3 of the game turns have been played) or is counted as a casualty.

Agile
The weapon/unit ignores the dodge saves of air units. Air unit possessing this trait ignore the dodge saves of other air units when attacking them in close combat. Air units with the agile trait may block the flight path of other air units which results in intended collisions (see Air Rules).

Aware (X)
The model's reaction range is increased by X“.

Bunker
This building cannot be penetrated by any weapons and the models inside will never take any damage if the bunker is hit by an LZ (X“) weapon. Beam weapons do not penetrate or pass the structure, but roll normal damage against the structure itself.

Note that the bunker does not save models from being hit by weapons with the Flame trait and that the models inside the bunker are still killed if the bunker is hit by a weapon with the atomic blast trait.

ECM (X”)
Sophisticated Equipment designed to cut all communication signals. Renders any equipment/abilities with the Radio trait useless. If the target of a Radio ability/equipment is within range of an ECM the ECM only blocks the effect on the target unit. If the model with Radio ability/equipment itself is in range of the ECM the ability/equipment is rendered useless until the model leaves the range of the ECM.

Some rare units may have extraordinary strong ECM devices, these are then listed as ECM/Y (X“). The Y indicates as how many ECM devices this single device will count [i.e. ECM/2 (12“)].

ECM does not affect models of the own army.

ECCM +X
The model gains a +X Bonus on all dice rolls when trying to break interference (see chapter „electronic warfare“).

Low Profile (X)
The model has either an extraordinary low profile or excels at hiding behind the smallest scrap of cover. For purposes of Line of Sight, cover and submerging the model counts as Size X, instead of it's normal size value.

No flinch
The model simply never flinches when hit by a ranged weapon. Note that it still may be pushed back in close combat by a larger opponent.

Parry/X - Additionally added by me.
A model with the Parry trait or carrying a weapon with the Parry trait can force a single enemy model attacking it to re-roll one of its Close Combat dice during an enemy Charge action. A model may only Parry something up to twice its own Size. Parry/2 or Parry/3 weapons allow the model to parry two or three Close Combat dice respectively against any opposing models attacking it.

Piercing/X - Additionally added by me.
The armour save roll of models struck by the model’s damage dice is reduced by the piercing value. If the Trait is possessed by a model, it will affect only its close combat attacks. If it is possessed by a weapon, it will affect only the Damage Dice rolled for that weapon.

Psyker +X
The model is a Psyker and gains the Block Psychic Talent. The Bonus is an indicator of the psychic capability of the model and is important in contending psychic checks (see Psychic Rules).

Radio (X”)
This ability/equipment uses radio signals to achieve it's effect and thus can be blocked by ECM devices.

Shoot on the run
Once per turn the model may shoot as part of a normal movement action. A model using this trait may not fire (or having fired) a second time during it's current players turn. „Shoot on the run“ may not be used as a reaction (but the model may still shoot as a reaction if it used „shoot on the run“).

Specialist
This model may act as leader of it's unit and/or take over command of it's unit if the original unit leader is killed or the unit has no unit leader at all.

Stable Weapon Platform
The model (/vehicle) may shoot one weapon group as part of a normal move action, except weapons that possess the ready or the heavy trait. The normal restriction apply (so weapons with the slow trait can only be fired once per turn).

Groups of Weapons are marked like this:
-1: Main Gun
-2: LMG, Flamer
-3: Y-Rack

(not that in this example the Y-Rack may still be used in addition to i.e. the Main Gun since it has the “free” trait)

Stealthy (X), Stealthy (X/Y)
The enemies reaction range counts as X“ lower when reacting to this model.

If there are two values the first one (X) is applied while the unit acts during the air phase and the later one (Y) is applied if the unit acts as a ground unit.

Subterrain
Although the model lacks the Tunnelling trait, it may move toward other Tunnelling Markers, Tunnel Entrances, Camouflaged Tunnel Entrances, Nest Entrances and Bug Central when underground, rather than randomly determining their direction. A model possessing the Subterrain trait can only enter or exit the tunnel network at an existing Tunnel Entrance and cannot create it's own.

Suicide
A model possessing this trait will automatically be destroyed after making a close combat attack against an enemy. In case of the trait being part of a special attack the model (if not possessing the trait anyway) will only be automatically destroyed when making this special attack.

Swim (X”)
Usually waterborne units can swim much faster than they can walk on land.

If a unit with the swim (X”) trait performs a move or charge action while within water terrain it may replace it's normal movement value by the value of it's swim trait (X”). If using swim movement the unit may not leave the water terrain.

Wall Crawler
The model can traverse plain vertical wall as easy as flat ground. It may simply climb up a vertical wall as part of a normal move or charge action.

[“X”]
The unit/weapon may gain the trait inside the brackets (“X”) under special circumstances. These are explained in the associated unit/weapon entry.


Weapon Traits

If a weapon trait is noted in a unit's trait section it applies to all of it's close combat attacks.

AA <this is an addition to the normal AA rule>
AA weapons possessing the slow trait may fire as a reaction against air untis in the air phase if they did not fire during their player's turn. AA weapons with the heavy trait may only do so if they also have not moved during their players turn.

AA only
This weapon/attack may only target air units.

Agile
The weapon/unit ignores the dodge saves of air units. Air unit possessing this trait ignore the dodge saves of other air units when attacking them in close combat. Air units with the agile trait may block the flight path of other air units which results in intended collisions (see Air Rules).

Anti-Structure
This weapon is designed to destroy buildings and fortified positions. It may not be fired at models, only at structures as it lacks the manoeuvrability and advanced targeting systems needed to hit such small and fast-moving targets.

Ammo/X
The model may fire as many shots as it's ammo stats indicate. It does not need to fire all shots at one time but may not split it's fire. A weapon with the ammo/10 trait for example may fire 6 shots against one enemy unit and in it's next shooting action 4 shots against another one.

The weapon may be reloaded (even if not entirely depleted) by taking a ready action – in the upper example the weapon would be fully restocked to ten shots. If the weapon also possesses the one-shot trait it may not be reloaded.

Atomic Blast
Any model, building or terrain feature touched by this template is instantly removed from play as it is vaporised by a nuclear explosion or one million °C hot plasma.

Tunnel markers hit by a weapon with the atomic blast trait are breached and all models represented by the tunnel marker suffer 1D10 damage as if the tunnel marker was breached by a multihit weapon. The tunnel marker is removed and replaced by a bug hole (see the tunnelling rules in the Core Rulebook).

Beam (X)
Any model in a direct line up to the maximum weapon range will be hit. The beam will stop at models/buildings/solid terrain pieces of Size X.

Beams with the Beam (∞) trait will suffer a -1 modifier for every inch of cover (not models) they pass. So a Skinnie Heavy Laser with an original damage value of D10+3 will do D10-3 damage if firing through 6“ of hard cover (buildings, walls etc.).

Bunker Buster (X)
This weapon ignores the Bunker trait of any structure it is fired upon.

Is has a value (X) which indicates a damage dice (i.e. D6) rolled against every single model within the structure, but only if the weapon scored a hit (or a kill) result on the structure.

Bunker Buster weapons that score a hit or a kill a tunnel marker do (X) damage to all models represented by the tunnel marker. However the tunnel marker is only breached (and thus will be replaced by a bug hole) if a kill result is rolled.

Direct Fire
Only LZ (X“) weapons with this trait may use direct fire mode (=create a normal firezone and not a template). Note that LZ (Stream) weapons will never gain this trait.

Free
This weapon may always be fired in addition to any other weapon the model is able to use.

Guided
This weapon trait refers to AA weapons only. The weapon has powerful thrusters and advanced targeting systems making it able to home in at enemy air units with deadly precision. The weapon always hits air units at their regular target value, regardless of their flying speed.

Heavy
This weapon may not be fired during movement.

LoS
This weapon may only be fired at targets within Line of Sight. It may not be used for indirect fire (not that this has nothing to do with whether the weapon uses a template or creates a firezone).

LZ (Stream)
This weapon uses the 2” broad Stream Template.

Parry/X - Additionally added by me.
A model with the Parry trait or carrying a weapon with the Parry trait can force a single enemy model attacking it to re-roll one of its Close Combat dice during an enemy Charge action. A model may only Parry something up to twice its own Size. Parry/2 or Parry/3 weapons allow the model to parry two or three Close Combat dice respectively against any opposing models attacking it.

Piercing/X - Additionally added by me.
The Armour save roll of models struck by the model’s Damage Dice is reduced by the Piercing value. If the Trait is possessed by a model, it will affect only its Close Combat attacks. If it is possessed by a weapon, it will affect only the Damage Dice rolled for that weapon.

Precise
This Artillery Weapon does not deviate, when Line of Sight to target is given.

Slow - Additionally added by me.
A Slow weapon may only fire once every turn, and may not fire during a Reaction.

Sniper
This weapon is extraordinary accurate. It may always allocate it's damage dice to specific models within a fire zone.

Spread
This weapon ignores dodge saves.

Thrown/X”
The weapon is thrown by the user only over a short distance and thus halves the result of it's artillery dice resulting in a lower deviation.

[“X”]
The unit/weapon may gain the trait inside the brackets (“X”) under special circumstances. These are explained in the associated unit/weapon entry.

[Special Rules]
The Weapon has additional special rules in it's entry which cannot be expressed by it's stats or traits. This trait will always be the last listed in the weapon's trait entry.

Special Unit Entry Values

Kill Value [-]
Models that do not have a Kill Value simply cannot get a Kill result. If hit by Killshot weapons they do not get an armour save but loose only one hit. Note that they may still be taken out instantly by weapons with the Atomic Blast Trait.

Range [-]
If a weapon with the LZ(X”) Trait has no range value the LZ will be centered on the model carrying the weapon and will not deviate. The weapon will never harm the model using it.

=======

These traits, and of course the normal traits of the core rules are available. I do not think that we will need all of them, but Galatea's Mod contain some interesting concepts that are also interesting for the 40k mod.

I think with this material, we have a good basis on which we can develop the weapons systems for the different races and if necessary develop new traits.

C&C are welcome.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[Arkon4000]

Hi Guys,

sorry for the long break, but it takes more time to answer all of the things that we are talking about. I finished my answers for the Non-Weapon-Discussion and I hope that I can finish the work on the answers for the Weapon-Discussion in the next days.

I'going to split my post, first one for the non-weapon discussion, I'll post again with the weapon discussion a bit later more in an attempt to de-clutter my comments somewhat.

Incidently, the 40K armies I have are Eldar, Space Marines, Deathwing and I'm slowly building a small force of Elysian Drop Troops (Imperial Guard).

Ewww. Few problems. The Storm Raven is ugly. Only two marine chapters use them (For some odd reason.) and it feels like a sad attempt by GW to make a Space Marine version of the Valkyrie. I'd be happy if none of use ever make stats for it.

Totally agree, It looks like a valkyrie crashed into a Land Raider and some heretical Techpriest or malfunctioning servitor welded the result back together. It's just so wrong in so many ways; an aesthetic disaster. However in seriousness, the Land Raider Crusader used to be limited to Crusading Chapters only. Now it (and all its variants) are available to every chapter.

So what should we do? Should we drop this vehicle or keep it and think about some values?

I would be interested for your reasoning at some points.

Partly, it's because I'm fishing for your side of the argument as to why it should be so. Others, because I'm not sure myself and looking to explore the merits and flaws of one way or another.

It would be very helpful for me if you could tell me which units and weapons seem illogical to you. Then we could better discuss it.

Can you tell me the reason why I should reduce the movement value?

Mainly it is for future balance issues with the other races. For example, if the smaller Tyranids gribblies have to be Move 7-8" to be faster then the Marines, then the Guard, Orks, Eldar and Tau will be victims of that creep. With the -1", a Guardsman is Move 4", Space Marine in Power Armour is Move 5" and Terminator Armour is Move 4". The marine is still faster then a regular human (and probably the same Move as an Eldar), only being slowed down significantly by the bulk of the terminator armour, a nice touch which you had previously used anyway.

I have discussed this issue with Galatea at the beginning of this mod and we're both have thought that 6 inches, is the better value for the Space Marines. Galatea has the opinion that faster races like Eldar or Tyranids should have a movement value of 7-8". These values can vary within the army, of course, like in the list of the bug force for example (Warrior Bug - 6" /Tanker Bug - 4").

But this point is difficult. The problem in determining the movement value is that you must take into account the rules for close combat. The point blank range of a model results from its size value. This increases the effective close combat range of the model. In my view we should not choose the movement value for the different races too small. It would restrict agile units and/or very good close combat fighter to much, because they run the risk to get a counter-attack of their target.

I have given them the Parry trait, because all the other elite troops (i.e. vanguard, sternguard, etc.) have this trait also. But you could be right with your suggestion. A fighter inside a Terminator armor is not to be able to parry an attack without a suitable weapon for it.

This was exactly what I thought your reasoning was. It could also make the differences in Assault and Tactical terminator squads roles more pronounced.

I think it is a good idea. Maybe it makes sense to drop the parry trait completely from the basic profiles and bring it back over the gear or with the herotic traits. But I'm not sure if this is a good idea.

Another question is how we consider the case when a fighter has the "Parry" Trait already in his basic profile and then used a weapon that has the "Parry" trait, too. Should he count as Parry/2?

Ok it's true that a hit of 7+ is really hard. But I see no problem in that case. A terminator will probably cost around 200 points or more. For these points other army get enough troops or better weapons that give them a good chance to make a hit or kill at the Terminator. And the terminator armor is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer. And this point should be reflected in the values.

In many ways I do agree with Hit 7+. Terminators should be Space Hulk hard to fit the fluff - they are increadibly tough and very difficult to harm let alone kill. As you said, it "is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer", but a previous poster raised a very important point:

...it supposed to be a game. You need some balance.

I've played a few games where my opponent could not harm my forces after turn 1 shooting and vice versa (and not just 40K). They were probably the most boring games I've played, and were certainly not fun and generally ended after/during turn 2 after one of use realised what had happened. It's also one of the main reason I've pretty much given up regular 40K - some armies are just far superior to others - and just mainly play Apocalypse where you do not need to squeeze every point until it squeaks, and prefer combat patrol where you put serious limits on the power level.

I am really in two minds about this. One hand I want a fighting chance against any army without having to rely on tailoring a force. On the other I want to field a B###ard Hard Deathwing to live up to it's fluff.

I've been thinking about the previous argumentation. But I want to remind you, however, that not only the profile values are important for the game balance, but also the points cost.

I've looked at the rules of SST and also review the Mod of Galatea. The Mobile Infantry can use whole platoons of Marauder battle suits. These suits are available in different versions with different weapons and armor. A full platoon consists of up to 43 battle suits, the point costs depend on the compilation, but move between 6000 to 14000 points (without any extra toys). And then take a look at the game stats for such a Marauder suit:

M8a Ape Trooper
Value: 200
Size: 3
Move: 4“
CC: 2D10
Hit: 7+
Save: 3+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/4 - Jump 8“ - Specialist - Piercing/1

M8b Bigfoot Trooper
Value: 300
Size: 3
Move: 4“
CC: 2D10
Hit: 7+
Save: 3+
Kill: 11+
Traits: Hits/4 - Jump 8“ - Specialist

I have developed my normal Space Marines on the basis of Exosuit troopers of the MI. And if you compare the values of the Ape Marauder/Bigfoot Marauder suit with those of the terminator, you see a similar level within the values.

Space Marine Terminator
Value: 200
Size: 2
Move: 5 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 2+ / -
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/2 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Ok a Terminator has a higher kill value and a better armor save, but he withstand less hits than a Marauder and is slower because he has no jump jets. But the biggest difference is the weapon arsenal which a Marauder carries around with himself:

M8a Ape
- Twin Morita Ape Special (Range: 20" - Damage: 2x 4xD6 - Traits: Auto)
- Deringer Light Rotary Cannon (Range: 20" - Damage : 4xD6 - Traits: AA / Auto)
- Trip Hammer Mortar (Range: 15" - Damage: 3xD10 - Traits: Piercing/1 / Spread / Slow)
- Hellseed Y-Rack (Range: X - Damage: D6 - Traits: LZ (4“) / free / Slow [Special Rules])

M8b Bigfoot
- 2x Plasmatic Cannon (Range: 12" - Damage: 2x D10+4 - Traits: Ammo/1 / Flame / Killshot / multihit / retaliate)
- Hail Mary Mortar (Range: 60“ - Damage: D10+2 - Traits: LZ (3“) / ready / slow)
- Hellseed Y-Rack (Range: X - Damage: D6 - Traits: LZ (4“) / free / slow [Special Rules])

With this arsenal, a Marauder cause an incredible amount of damage. And you need also heavy weapons to stop a Marauder, because small arms are useless. Such an arsenal has no terminator and then consider how many points you have to pay for one terminator. In a 2000 point game, you could not use more than 10 terminators, and these carry only their standard equipment. And if you have to fight against a bug force of over 130 Warrior bugs, then I would see this as enough game balance.

I know that the Apothecary and the Techmarine are missing in my list. That's my mistake. I will create some profiles for them. But what kind of trait we can give them to distinguish them from other Marines. They have a special combat function, but I have no real idea how this can represent in the game.

Profiles wise, using either the Tactical Sergent or Sternguard (as I think they're suppose to be a little bit better then a Tactical Marine) profile is probably about right 'level'. So a similar profile to the Codicer Librarian.

Its their own way Apothecaries and Techmarines are both healer units, they keep the army fighting. Perhaps allow them to slowly heal back hits on 'dead' and damaged troops and vehicles. I also made a suggestion of the Techmarine adding extra Armour Asset slots later in the post. Additionally, you could allow limited access to some of the more non-standard gear for the Apothecary, and special gear/toys for the Techmarine (as well as servitors).

I'm agree with you. The main task on the battlefield for both units should be to maintain the combat capability of the remaining troops.

For the Apothecary:

In addition to the ability as a healer, I would also suggest that the Apothecary take influence on the calculation of the victory points. For example: If the Apothecary is still alive at the end of the battle, he can reduce the victory points for destroyed Space Marine units, because he just could ensure the genetic material of the fallen. For the ability as healers I've found something that could fit very well. I explain that further below.

Based on your reflections, I would suggest as a profile following values:

Space Marine Apothecary
Value: 200
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

We may need to add a trait. What do you imagine for "more non-standard gear"?

For the Techmarine:

What do you mean, how many slots should activate a Techmarine? 6 slots or more? What kind of special gear or extra toys you could imagine would fit for the Techmarine? I could imagine that he has an armor save of 2 +, an extra servo arm or a conversion beam projector. As profile I would propose the following values:

Space Marine Techmarine
Value: 200
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 2+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

This ability comes from the MI list and it could fit very well for both units. We should only adjust this ability according to the two models as a special rule.

Engineer Training (+25 points)
With the technical advancement of modern weaponry and armour, some basic training of engineering principle is essential for even the lowest grunt. Even more specialised training is often a prerequisite for command. By taking a read action, a model with Engineer Training can repair one hit of damage on a multihit model within it's point blank range on a D6 roll of 3+.

This trait my not be used by models in Marauder Suits.

What do you think of it so far?

I like your Dreadnaught sugguestion.

Thanks, it has the benefit of a Rifleman dreadnaught (2x Ranged) being a very different close combat profile to the tactical dreadnaught (1x Ranged/1x DCCW) and Close Combat 2x DCCW builds.

See my comments for the weapons discussion for further information. I think we are on a good way but some things need more fine tuning.

A give them the 3+-save because in the original 40k-Rules the vindicator and the predator have the same armor values. I just think about it if I take the idea from the Evo rules with different values ??for the different sides of a tank. But I'm not sure right now if that is playable

It was one I wasn't to sure about but seemed to fit in with the fluff. The Vindicator is supposed to be a heavily up-armoured Rhino used for smashing fortifications. Its the kind of tank you'd expect to have the really hefty front armour.

You are right with your ideas, but we've dispensed of a differentiation for the different sides of a tank. If we keep that, I think a save of 2+ is too much. Surely the Vindcator is heavily armoured but certainly not so massive that it would be justified a 2+ save. I would prefer to take into consideration a reduction of the saves of the Rhino, Razorback and Whirlwind to a save of 4+. That would make the Vindcator and the Predator a bit more special.

-- Edit reflecting Arkon4000s additional comments --

You're right with your assumption. They are indeed officers. Their command authority ranks below the Chaplain and the Captain.

But how can we integrate them meaningfully into the command structure? If they have command authority, they should actually be moved into the HQ section.

We can renounce to give them the "Force Leader" Trait and let them in the Command Section and give them instead to provide additional Fleet Assets for the Army, like the Techmarine do it with the Armor Assets.

Why can't we do both? If we are considering breaking them into Codicer and Epistolary, then we could make the Codicer available through a Command Assest, and the Epistolary as a Force Leader selection (0-1/0-1/0-1 ?).

Sure we could do that. Your idea for the division into different ranks is very good, but I had read that there are 4 ranks in the Librarium:

- Lexicanium
- Codicier
- Epistolary
- Chief Librarian

I could imagine to use the Lexicanium and the Codicier as Command Assets and the Epistolary and the Chief Librarian as HQ choices. The strength of a Psyker would increase with his rank. My suggestion would be for example Lexicanium (Psyker / 1) // Codicier (Psyker / 2) // Epistolary (Psyker / 3) / Chief Librarian (Psyker / 4) or alternatively Lexicanium (Psyker / 0) // Codicier (Psyker / 1) // Epistolary (Psyker / 2) / Chief Librarian (Psyker / 3). It depends a bit upon how we integrate the psychic powers and which kind of psychic power we will use.

My Suggestions about the Psyker Profiles:

Space Marine Chief Librarian
Value: 275
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 4+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Force Leader - Shoot on the run - Elite - Psyker/4 (or 3)

Space Marine Epistolary
Value: 225
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Force Leader - Shoot on the run - Elite - Psyker/3 (or 2)

Space Marine Codicier
Value: 180
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran - Psyker/2 (or 1)

Space Marine Lexicanium
Value: 125
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Veteran - Psyker/1 (or 0)

We should discussed how many slots and what kind of slots the different ranks could activate for the army list.

HQ
1. Space Marine Chapter Master (none / none / 0-1)
- Space Marine Honour Guard
- Space Marine Chapter Champion
- Space Marine Chapter Standard Bearer
2. Space Marine Captian (none / 0-1 / 1+)
- Master of the Arsenal
- Master of the Recruits
- Master of the Fleet
- Master of the Watch
2.1 Space Marine Command Squad
- Space Marine Apothecary
- Space Marine Company Champion
- Space Marine Company Standard Bearer
3. Space Marine Chaplain (none / 0-1 / 1+)
4. Space Marine Veteran (1 / 1-5 / any Number)

I have him as part of the command squad, because there is only one Apothecary per company. So I'm not sure if we should change that.

Oops, I missed that in the wall of text. I was looking inthe Command Assests section with Librarians and Techmarines. If you like the Librarian suggestion above, we may wish to alter the Veteran to (0-1/0-5/Any number) so the PL 1 slot has the choice between a Veteran or an Epistolary Librarian.

I really like your suggestion and I will change that. About activation of the higher PL levels I'm unsure at the moment. I had thought to make depends of the level of points, but I think that is too limited.
I think the sensible way is to specify a command model as a compulsory choice, to choose a higher-level PL.

Does anyone have suggestions, how to use the HQ-veterans meaningful in the higher levels of PL?

Have you not seen the Scout Bike Squadron and the Land Speeder Storm? They are unlimited on all Priority levels. In my view the mission of the space marine scouts are the partols and the reconnaissance. The normal Bike Squadrons are for hit and run missions or for fast assaults. And based on the Codex Astrates only the Assault Marines of the battle companies and all members of the 8. Reserve Company drive the bikes and attack bikes.

Yes, I'd seen the availability of the Scout assets and agree with you about their primary use being recon and harassment. I also still think my suggestion of Assault Marine assets is also valid. They are the kind of forces you can rapidly re-deploy to meet an unexpected threat, or would fill in the recon role should Scouts not be available. Certainly I think they should be as available as Devastators.

I think you're right and it would be a good thing if we also create the opportunity for PL1-forces to have access to a land speeder squadron or a bike squad. Then the classification would look like this:

Space Marine Assault Squad (0-1 / 0-2 / any Number)

This transport option, they should definitely get and I had listed that in the appropriate unit description also. But I would like to make this option depend on the availability of appropriate Armor Assets. They still have their teleport option to arrive the battlefield.

You could be right that there are too few slots. But I'm not sure what number is reasonable for one Techmarine.

We could actually combine these two along the lines of the Ironclad Dreadnaught. So the Landraider (or Ironclad) still costs an Armoury Asset slot, but is made as a transport option for Terminators and available at lower PLs as a result.

I'm not sure if I understand your proposal correctly. At the moment we have the situation that we only have access for the Techmarine at PL2. We also need a command slot to take a Techmarine for our force. So at PL1 we have no access to the armory at the moment.

I like your idea with the unlocking of extra equipment (for Ironclad Dreadnoughts) or of transport options for terminators. But we have to change the command structure a bit so that your suggestions would work.

Additionally, extra gear in the Armoury - Teleport Homers, speciallist Siege Gear - minefields and fortifications.

No problem with that. I'm open to any suggestion.

No problem with that. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition because I like the weapon.

I like it too, but it's best to leave some of the cool toys for the other armies instead of making it, or an equivalent, available to the Space Marines.

Any Suggestions on that topic?

Your reasoning is correct. But how we can implement this meaningful, that they are used only for defense missions?

See my comment for the Librarian. I would like to add that we can make them unlimitedly available and control their selection with the available Fleet Assets. What do you thinking about that idea?

I agree it is a difficult thing to make meaningfull. While drop pods are also equally viable for a defensive mission (getting emergency reinforcements to a battlefield) they are also used to spearhead the plaentary assault. I do like the suggestion of making them unlimited, but controlling there availability with another unit e.g. Librarians or the Master of the Fleet.

We should thinking about this point again. I think our previous considerations going in the right direction but we have to work a bit on it.

Additionally, should the Vindicator have the same availablitiy as a Predator?

That's a good question. When I need a battle tank and when an assault gun? The answer is very difficult. I think we have to make more thoughts about this case. I'm open to any suggestions.

===

That's it for now. I look forward to your comments and critiques. And as I have already written above, I'm open to any suggestions.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[basaint]

Man, you sure like typing AK...

 

[Silvereye]

Apologies for the delay in replying, and the long post....

So what should we do? Should we drop this vehicle or keep it and think about some values?

Sadly, I think we need to include it.

It would be very helpful for me if you could tell me which units and weapons seem illogical to you. Then we could better discuss it.

The items I have had any issues or thoughts about I have raised in previous posts. Those where I agree I've generally not felt the need to add anything.

I have discussed this issue with Galatea at the beginning of this mod and we're both have thought that 6 inches, is the better value for the Space Marines. Galatea has the opinion that faster races like Eldar or Tyranids should have a movement value of 7-8". These values can vary within the army, of course, like in the list of the bug force for example (Warrior Bug - 6" /Tanker Bug - 4").

But this point is difficult. The problem in determining the movement value is that you must take into account the rules for close combat. The point blank range of a model results from its size value. This increases the effective close combat range of the model. In my view we should not choose the movement value for the different races too small. It would restrict agile units and/or very good close combat fighter to much, because they run the risk to get a counter-attack of their target.

True, but we also get the opposite effect. If Tyranids and Eldar are made movement 7-8", the slower moving Imperial guardsman, Tau and Ork is further penalised. 3 move actions of 7" will exceed the firing range (excluding firezones) of a Range: 20" weapon - which wolfprophet has posted for an example lasgun.

Most models will still be size 1 so the point blank will never be much of an issue. Only when your up against monstrous creatures, walkers, vehicles and to a lesser degree the Size 2 heavy infantry will the point blank reactions become an issue, and that's probably a good thing. It also ensures that Dreadnaughts, Wraithlords, Killa-cans, Greater Demons, Defilers and all the big 'nids will need a well planned assault if they are to be brought down in close combat.

Aditionally, there is also nothing to stop us giving the 'fleet' models a free move action each turn to represent their superior mobility.

I think it is a good idea. Maybe it makes sense to drop the parry trait completely from the basic profiles and bring it back over the gear or with the herotic traits. But I'm not sure if this is a good idea.

Another question is how we consider the case when a fighter has the "Parry" Trait already in his basic profile and then used a weapon that has the "Parry" trait, too. Should he count as Parry/2?

I'd do not see why not. It does mean that the fighter's better in close combat - other examples might include a Banshee Exarch with Mirror swords, Scorpion Exarch with Chainsabres, or Tyranid construct with Boneswords.

I've been thinking about the previous argumentation. But I want to remind you, however, that not only the profile values are important for the game balance, but also the points cost.

I've looked at the rules of SST and also review the Mod of Galatea. The Mobile Infantry can use whole platoons of Marauder battle suits. These suits are available in different versions with different weapons and armor. A full platoon consists of up to 43 battle suits, the point costs depend on the compilation, but move between 6000 to 14000 points (without any extra toys). And then take a look at the game stats for such a Marauder suit:

M8a Ape Trooper
Value: 200
Size: 3
Move: 4“
CC: 2D10
Hit: 7+
Save: 3+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/4 - Jump 8“ - Specialist - Piercing/1

M8b Bigfoot Trooper
Value: 300
Size: 3
Move: 4“
CC: 2D10
Hit: 7+
Save: 3+
Kill: 11+
Traits: Hits/4 - Jump 8“ - Specialist

I have developed my normal Space Marines on the basis of Exosuit troopers of the MI. And if you compare the values of the Ape Marauder/Bigfoot Marauder suit with those of the terminator, you see a similar level within the values.

Space Marine Terminator
Value: 200
Size: 2
Move: 5 "
CC: 2xD10
Target: 7+
Save: 2+ / -
Kill: 12+
Traits: Hits/3 - Piercing/2 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Ok a Terminator has a higher kill value and a better armor save, but he withstand less hits than a Marauder and is slower because he has no jump jets. But the biggest difference is the weapon arsenal which a Marauder carries around with himself:

M8a Ape
- Twin Morita Ape Special (Range: 20" - Damage: 2x 4xD6 - Traits: Auto)
- Deringer Light Rotary Cannon (Range: 20" - Damage : 4xD6 - Traits: AA / Auto)
- Trip Hammer Mortar (Range: 15" - Damage: 3xD10 - Traits: Piercing/1 / Spread / Slow)
- Hellseed Y-Rack (Range: X - Damage: D6 - Traits: LZ (4“) / free / Slow [Special Rules])

M8b Bigfoot
- 2x Plasmatic Cannon (Range: 12" - Damage: 2x D10+4 - Traits: Ammo/1 / Flame / Killshot / multihit / retaliate)
- Hail Mary Mortar (Range: 60“ - Damage: D10+2 - Traits: LZ (3“) / ready / slow)
- Hellseed Y-Rack (Range: X - Damage: D6 - Traits: LZ (4“) / free / slow [Special Rules])

With this arsenal, a Marauder cause an incredible amount of damage. And you need also heavy weapons to stop a Marauder, because small arms are useless. Such an arsenal has no terminator and then consider how many points you have to pay for one terminator. In a 2000 point game, you could not use more than 10 terminators, and these carry only their standard equipment. And if you have to fight against a bug force of over 130 Warrior bugs, then I would see this as enough game balance.

True, at 2,000 points we will see <10 Terminators on the field but we are not balancing versus Arachnids or Skinnies. We need to take into account their abilities against Orks, Imperial Guard, Tau, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Sisters of Battle, Necrons....

The other thing is they kind of set a standard for Heavy Infantry, so Wraithguard, Chaos Terminators (and Oblitorators), Mega-armoured Orks, Tyranid Warriors and Tau Battlesuits (maybe even Ogryns) are all sort of similar. Additionally, according to fluff Genestealers should be likely to trash terminators in close combat.... So if we stat them accordingly then the 'stealers will own most other armies if they get into close combat. Which while not a bad thing does potentially lead to an aweful lot of powerful when compared to an Imperial Guard trooper. Each elite model will instead be trying to compete with an Imperial Guard platoon, Fire Warrior cadre or massive mobs of ork boyz.

At 2,000 points, a Terminator army will probably be 8 Terminators. Tyranids might bring a dozen Tyranid Warriors. The Imperial Guard will likely bring 100+ men, associated tank squadrons and some assorted artillery. Since it cannot compete in the elite models costing 100s of points stakes, it has to go for quantity instead.

The danger is we make Terminators etc. too Elite, and they never see the tabletop as a result. Let alone the models that are more powerful then them (Avatar, Greater Demons, Carnifex etc.).

For the Apothecary:

In addition to the ability as a healer, I would also suggest that the Apothecary take influence on the calculation of the victory points. For example: If the Apothecary is still alive at the end of the battle, he can reduce the victory points for destroyed Space Marine units, because he just could ensure the genetic material of the fallen. For the ability as healers I've found something that could fit very well. I explain that further below.

Based on your reflections, I would suggest as a profile following values:

Space Marine Apothecary
Value: 200
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 3+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

We may need to add a trait. What do you imagine for "more non-standard gear"?

Looks about right. Whether it should be Veteran or Elite I think will need a bit of testing depending on how we finalise the Traits. The non-standard gear would be upgrades like energy fields (which you have included in the profile) or some of the more common items from the armoury - master crafted weaponry, articifer armour, power weapons etc.

The Rogue Trader also had a Master of the Apothacarion rank.

For the Techmarine:

What do you mean, how many slots should activate a Techmarine? 6 slots or more? What kind of special gear or extra toys you could imagine would fit for the Techmarine? I could imagine that he has an armor save of 2 +, an extra servo arm or a conversion beam projector. As profile I would propose the following values:

Space Marine Techmarine
Value: 200
Size: 1
Move: 6 "
CC: 2xD6+2
Target: 5+
Save: 2+ / 5+
Kill: 10+
Traits: Hits/2 - Piercing/1 - Parry - Independent - Shoot on the run - Elite

Again, looks about right. Servo arm works in CC as a powerfist. Again, access to non-standard gear (for example: special weapons - plasma gun, meltagun, flamer; combi-weapons) and armoury upgrades as well as a servitor retinue. (put servitors in the Amroury Assets?). The slots I refered to would be extra choices from the Armoury Assets for picking a techmarine. We could also add in wargear to the Armoury Assets list?

This ability comes from the MI list and it could fit very well for both units. We should only adjust this ability according to the two models as a special rule.

Engineer Training (+25 points)
With the technical advancement of modern weaponry and armour, some basic training of engineering principle is essential for even the lowest grunt. Even more specialised training is often a prerequisite for command. By taking a read action, a model with Engineer Training can repair one hit of damage on a multihit model within it's point blank range on a D6 roll of 3+.

This trait my not be used by models in Marauder Suits.

What do you think of it so far?

Looks about right perhaps a little easy though, especially if servitors can help with repairs. An option could be to not allow it to heal back Killshots, but that might be a little difficult to keep track of, unless models killed by a killshot were just removed instead.

See my comments for the weapons discussion for further information. I think we are on a good way but some things need more fine tuning.

I look forward to reading them.

You are right with your ideas, but we've dispensed of a differentiation for the different sides of a tank. If we keep that, I think a save of 2+ is too much. Surely the Vindcator is heavily armoured but certainly not so massive that it would be justified a 2+ save. I would prefer to take into consideration a reduction of the saves of the Rhino, Razorback and Whirlwind to a save of 4+. That would make the Vindcator and the Predator a bit more special.

That would work, but it could also be the vindicators dozer-blade providing cover...?

-- Edit reflecting Arkon4000s additional comments --

You're right with your assumption. They are indeed officers. Their command authority ranks below the Chaplain and the Captain.

But how can we integrate them meaningfully into the command structure? If they have command authority, they should actually be moved into the HQ section.

We can renounce to give them the "Force Leader" Trait and let them in the Command Section and give them instead to provide additional Fleet Assets for the Army, like the Techmarine do it with the Armor Assets.

Why can't we do both? If we are considering breaking them into Codicer and Epistolary, then we could make the Codicer available through a Command Assest, and the Epistolary as a Force Leader selection (0-1/0-1/0-1 ?).

Sure we could do that. Your idea for the division into different ranks is very good, but I had read that there are 4 ranks in the Librarium:

- Lexicanium
- Codicier
- Epistolary
- Chief Librarian

I could imagine to use the Lexicanium and the Codicier as Command Assets and the Epistolary and the Chief Librarian as HQ choices. The strength of a Psyker would increase with his rank. My suggestion would be for example Lexicanium (Psyker / 1) // Codicier (Psyker / 2) // Epistolary (Psyker / 3) / Chief Librarian (Psyker / 4) or alternatively Lexicanium (Psyker / 0) // Codicier (Psyker / 1) // Epistolary (Psyker / 2) / Chief Librarian (Psyker / 3). It depends a bit upon how we integrate the psychic powers and which kind of psychic power we will use.

My Suggestions about the Psyker Profiles:

<SNIP>

We should discussed how many slots and what kind of slots the different ranks could activate for the army list.

There are indeed four ranks, the Lexicanium was kind of the trainee/lowest psychic potential (but still psychic) kind which is why I think it was dropped from the current codecies. Codicer and Epistolary are the regualr battlefield psykers, the Chief Librarian is the senior librarian. As a result I'd probably go with the lower values, and consider a Psyker/+1 trait as an upgrade for those who want to. Profiles look about right, though it might be worth considering the invulrable saves on the Lexicanium and Codicer (upgrade on the codicer?).

Rogue Trader Compendium had the Lexicanium with the same profile as a standard marine. Psychic level and powers were determined randomly. So the Lexicanium could have better powers then a Chief Librarian.

About activation of the higher PL levels I'm unsure at the moment. I had thought to make depends of the level of points, but I think that is too limited.
I think the sensible way is to specify a command model as a compulsory choice, to choose a higher-level PL.

Does anyone have suggestions, how to use the HQ-veterans meaningful in the higher levels of PL?

How they were done in the Rogue Trader Space Marine army list was
0-1 Lietenant Commander (second in command of the chapter, top 3 levels of power)
0-1 Captain (Leader of a Company, top 3 levels of power)
1 Lieutenant (Second in command of a Company, top 3 levels of power)
0-3 Chaplians (top 3 levels of power)
1-6 Librarians (all power levels, Lexicanium was 1-6, others were 0-1)

Then the classification would look like this:

Space Marine Assault Squad (0-1 / 0-2 / any Number)

Looks fine

I'm not sure if I understand your proposal correctly. At the moment we have the situation that we only have access for the Techmarine at PL2. We also need a command slot to take a Techmarine for our force. So at PL1 we have no access to the armory at the moment.

I like your idea with the unlocking of extra equipment (for Ironclad Dreadnoughts) or of transport options for terminators. But we have to change the command structure a bit so that your suggestions would work.

Apologies, I'll try and word it better.

Currently as it stands in your list, to include an Ironclad Dreadnought in your force, you also need to have a Techmarine in your force. The Ironclad being sort of an upgrade from a regular dreadnought. The Ironclad dreadnought is also available from the list from the ????? Assets not the Armoury Assets. I was considering copying this idea for dedicated Land Raider transports for Terminators.

So basically, if you have a full Terminator squad, and a Techmarine in your army, then the combination will allow the player to access a Land Raider as a dedicated transport option for the Terminator squad without having to draw it directly from the Armoury Assets. It would still cost the Techmarine one of his Armoury Asset slots though. These options are for Techmarines and not a Master of the Forge.

Additionally, extra gear in the Armoury - Teleport Homers, speciallist Siege Gear - minefields and fortifications.

No problem with that. I'm open to any suggestion.

Other items might be: suits of articifer armour; master-crafted weaponry; exotic ammunition/grenades; personal energy fields; stationary equipment e.g. a void shield generator; and combi-weapons.

That's a good question. When I need a battle tank and when an assault gun? The answer is very difficult. I think we have to make more thoughts about this case. I'm open to any suggestions.

As I don't think there is anything in the fluff that says there are more of either kind of tank then the other. Since they have completely different battlefield roles, I think it should be enough to allow selection of either to fit in with what the player is building their army for.

Whew. Thats all for now. I look forward to any comments.

 

[locarno24]

There are indeed four ranks, the Lexicanium was kind of the trainee/lowest psychic potential (but still psychic) kind which is why I think it was dropped from the current codecies. Codicer and Epistolary are the regualr battlefield psykers, the Chief Librarian is the senior librarian. As a result I'd probably go with the lower values, and consider a Psyker/+1 trait as an upgrade for those who want to. Profiles look about right, though it might be worth considering the invulrable saves on the Lexicanium and Codicer (upgrade on the codicer?).

Rogue Trader Compendium had the Lexicanium with the same profile as a standard marine. Psychic level and powers were determined randomly. So the Lexicanium could have better powers then a Chief Librarian.

Which in some ways is fair enough. Chief Librarian is a 'political' rank, not one based on psychic bad-assery.

 

[Arkon4000]

Hi Communtiy,

Sorry that I write nothing at the moment. But the considerations for the weapons discussion are still more extensive than I thought. I hope that I can finish my answer for this post in the next few days.

Greetz
Arkon

 

[Silvereye]

I wouldn't fret abbout posting something quickly. And if the posts as epic as our last ones it will be a while before I could properly respond to it.