I'going to split my post, first one for the non-weapon discussion, I'll post again with the weapon discussion a bit later more in an attempt to de-clutter my comments somewhat.
Incidently, the 40K armies I have are Eldar, Space Marines, Deathwing and I'm slowly building a small force of Elysian Drop Troops (Imperial Guard).
Totally agree, It looks like a valkyrie crashed into a Land Raider and some heretical Techpriest or malfunctioning servitor welded the result back together. It's just so wrong in so many ways; an aesthetic disaster. However in seriousness, the Land Raider Crusader used to be limited to Crusading Chapters only. Now it (and all its variants) are available to every chapter.
Partly, it's because I'm fishing for your side of the argument as to why it should be so. Others, because I'm not sure myself and looking to explore the merits and flaws of one way or another.
Mainly it is for future balance issues with the other races. For example, if the smaller Tyranids gribblies have to be Move 7-8" to be faster then the Marines, then the Guard, Orks, Eldar and Tau will be victims of that creep. With the -1", a Guardsman is Move 4", Space Marine in Power Armour is Move 5" and Terminator Armour is Move 4". The marine is still faster then a regular human (and probably the same Move as an Eldar), only being slowed down significantly by the bulk of the terminator armour, a nice touch which you had previously used anyway.
This was exactly what I thought your reasoning was. It could also make the differences in Assault and Tactical terminator squads roles more pronounced.
In many ways I do agree with Hit 7+. Terminators should be Space Hulk hard to fit the fluff - they are increadibly tough and very difficult to harm let alone kill. As you said, it "is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer", but a previous poster raised a very important point:
I've played a few games where my opponent could not harm my forces after turn 1 shooting and vice versa (and not just 40K). They were probably the most boring games I've played, and were certainly not fun and generally ended after/during turn 2 after one of use realised what had happened. It's also one of the main reason I've pretty much given up regular 40K - some armies are just far superior to others - and just mainly play Apocalypse where you do not need to squeeze every point until it squeaks, and prefer combat patrol where you put serious limits on the power level.
I am really in two minds about this. One hand I want a fighting chance against any army without having to rely on tailoring a force. On the other I want to field a B###ard Hard Deathwing to live up to it's fluff.
Profiles wise, using either the Tactical Sergent or Sternguard (as I think they're suppose to be a little bit better then a Tactical Marine) profile is probably about right 'level'. So a similar profile to the Codicer Librarian.
Its their own way Apothecaries and Techmarines are both healer units, they keep the army fighting. Perhaps allow them to slowly heal back hits on 'dead' and damaged troops and vehicles. I also made a suggestion of the Techmarine adding extra Armour Asset slots later in the post. Additionally, you could allow limited access to some of the more non-standard gear for the Apothecary, and special gear/toys for the Techmarine (as well as servitors).
Thanks, it has the benefit of a Rifleman dreadnaught (2x Ranged) being a very different close combat profile to the tactical dreadnaught (1x Ranged/1x DCCW) and Close Combat 2x DCCW builds.
It was one I wasn't to sure about but seemed to fit in with the fluff. The Vindicator is supposed to be a heavily up-armoured Rhino used for smashing fortifications. Its the kind of tank you'd expect to have the really hefty front armour.
-- Edit reflecting Arkon4000s additional comments --
Why can't we do both? If we are considering breaking them into Codicer and Epistolary, then we could make the Codicer available through a Command Assest, and the Epistolary as a Force Leader selection (0-1/0-1/0-1 ?).
Oops, I missed that in the wall of text. I was looking inthe Command Assests section with Librarians and Techmarines. If you like the Librarian suggestion above, we may wish to alter the Veteran to (0-1/0-5/Any number) so the PL 1 slot has the choice between a Veteran or an Epistolary Librarian
Yes, I'd seen the availability of the Scout assets and agree with you about their primary use being recon and harassment. I also still think my suggestion of Assault Marine assets is also valid. They are the kind of forces you can rapidly re-deploy to meet an unexpected threat, or would fill in the recon role should Scouts not be available. Certainly I think they should be as available as Devastators.
We could actually combine these two along the lines of the Ironclad Dreadnaught. So the Landraider (or Ironclad) still costs an Armoury Asset slot, but is made as a transport option for Terminators and available at lower PLs as a result.
Additionally, extra gear in the Armoury - Teleport Homers, speciallist Siege Gear - minefields and fortifications.
I like it too, but it's best to leave some of the cool toys for the other armies instead of making it, or an equivalent, available to the Space Marines.
I agree it is a difficult thing to make meaningfull. While drop pods are also equally viable for a defensive mission (getting emergency reinforcements to a battlefield) they are also used to spearhead the plaentary assault. I do like the suggestion of making them unlimited, but controlling there availability with another unit e.g. Librarians or the Master of the Fleet.
Additionally, should the Vindicator have the same availablitiy as a Predator?
Incidently, the 40K armies I have are Eldar, Space Marines, Deathwing and I'm slowly building a small force of Elysian Drop Troops (Imperial Guard).
wolfprophet (re: Storm Raven) said:Ewww. Few problems. The Storm Raven is ugly. Only two marine chapters use them (For some odd reason.) and it feels like a sad attempt by GW to make a Space Marine version of the Valkyrie. I'd be happy if none of use ever make stats for it.
Totally agree, It looks like a valkyrie crashed into a Land Raider and some heretical Techpriest or malfunctioning servitor welded the result back together. It's just so wrong in so many ways; an aesthetic disaster. However in seriousness, the Land Raider Crusader used to be limited to Crusading Chapters only. Now it (and all its variants) are available to every chapter.
Arkon4000 said:I would be interested for your reasoning at some points.
Partly, it's because I'm fishing for your side of the argument as to why it should be so. Others, because I'm not sure myself and looking to explore the merits and flaws of one way or another.
Arkon4000 (re: Space Marines) said:Can you tell me the reason why I should reduce the movement value?
Mainly it is for future balance issues with the other races. For example, if the smaller Tyranids gribblies have to be Move 7-8" to be faster then the Marines, then the Guard, Orks, Eldar and Tau will be victims of that creep. With the -1", a Guardsman is Move 4", Space Marine in Power Armour is Move 5" and Terminator Armour is Move 4". The marine is still faster then a regular human (and probably the same Move as an Eldar), only being slowed down significantly by the bulk of the terminator armour, a nice touch which you had previously used anyway.
Arkon4000 (re: Terminators) said:I have given them the Parry trait, because all the other elite troops (i.e. vanguard, sternguard, etc.) have this trait also. But you could be right with your suggestion. A fighter inside a Terminator armor is not to be able to parry an attack without a suitable weapon for it.
This was exactly what I thought your reasoning was. It could also make the differences in Assault and Tactical terminator squads roles more pronounced.
Arkon4000 (re: Terminators) said:Ok it's true that a hit of 7+ is really hard. But I see no problem in that case. A terminator will probably cost around 200 points or more. For these points other army get enough troops or better weapons that give them a good chance to make a hit or kill at the Terminator. And the terminator armor is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer. And this point should be reflected in the values.
In many ways I do agree with Hit 7+. Terminators should be Space Hulk hard to fit the fluff - they are increadibly tough and very difficult to harm let alone kill. As you said, it "is the best full-body armor suit that the Empire has to offer", but a previous poster raised a very important point:
Kenrick Dargoth said:...it supposed to be a game. You need some balance.
I've played a few games where my opponent could not harm my forces after turn 1 shooting and vice versa (and not just 40K). They were probably the most boring games I've played, and were certainly not fun and generally ended after/during turn 2 after one of use realised what had happened. It's also one of the main reason I've pretty much given up regular 40K - some armies are just far superior to others - and just mainly play Apocalypse where you do not need to squeeze every point until it squeaks, and prefer combat patrol where you put serious limits on the power level.
I am really in two minds about this. One hand I want a fighting chance against any army without having to rely on tailoring a force. On the other I want to field a B###ard Hard Deathwing to live up to it's fluff.
Arkon4000 (re: Command Assets) said:I know that the Apothecary and the Techmarine are missing in my list. That's my mistake. I will create some profiles for them. But what kind of trait we can give them to distinguish them from other Marines. They have a special combat function, but I have no real idea how this can represent in the game.
Profiles wise, using either the Tactical Sergent or Sternguard (as I think they're suppose to be a little bit better then a Tactical Marine) profile is probably about right 'level'. So a similar profile to the Codicer Librarian.
Its their own way Apothecaries and Techmarines are both healer units, they keep the army fighting. Perhaps allow them to slowly heal back hits on 'dead' and damaged troops and vehicles. I also made a suggestion of the Techmarine adding extra Armour Asset slots later in the post. Additionally, you could allow limited access to some of the more non-standard gear for the Apothecary, and special gear/toys for the Techmarine (as well as servitors).
Arkon4000 (re: Dreadnaughts) said:I like your Dreadnaught sugguestion.
Thanks, it has the benefit of a Rifleman dreadnaught (2x Ranged) being a very different close combat profile to the tactical dreadnaught (1x Ranged/1x DCCW) and Close Combat 2x DCCW builds.
Arkon4000 (re: Vindicators) said:A give them the 3+-save because in the original 40k-Rules the vindicator and the predator have the same armor values. I just think about it if I take the idea from the Evo rules with different values ??for the different sides of a tank. But I'm not sure right now if that is playable
It was one I wasn't to sure about but seemed to fit in with the fluff. The Vindicator is supposed to be a heavily up-armoured Rhino used for smashing fortifications. Its the kind of tank you'd expect to have the really hefty front armour.
-- Edit reflecting Arkon4000s additional comments --
Arkon4000 (re: Librarians) said:You're right with your assumption. They are indeed officers. Their command authority ranks below the Chaplain and the Captain.
But how can we integrate them meaningfully into the command structure? If they have command authority, they should actually be moved into the HQ section.
We can renounce to give them the "Force Leader" Trait and let them in the Command Section and give them instead to provide additional Fleet Assets for the Army, like the Techmarine do it with the Armor Assets.
Why can't we do both? If we are considering breaking them into Codicer and Epistolary, then we could make the Codicer available through a Command Assest, and the Epistolary as a Force Leader selection (0-1/0-1/0-1 ?).
Arkon4000 (re: Apothecary) said:HQ
1. Space Marine Chapter Master (none / none / 0-1)
- Space Marine Honour Guard
- Space Marine Chapter Champion
- Space Marine Chapter Standard Bearer
2. Space Marine Captian (none / 0-1 / 1+)
- Master of the Arsenal
- Master of the Recruits
- Master of the Fleet
- Master of the Watch
2.1 Space Marine Command Squad
- Space Marine Apothecary
- Space Marine Company Champion
- Space Marine Company Standard Bearer
3. Space Marine Chaplain (none / 0-1 / 1+)
4. Space Marine Veteran (1 / 1-5 / any Number)
I have him as part of the command squad, because there is only one Apothecary per company. So I'm not sure if we should change that.
Oops, I missed that in the wall of text. I was looking inthe Command Assests section with Librarians and Techmarines. If you like the Librarian suggestion above, we may wish to alter the Veteran to (0-1/0-5/Any number) so the PL 1 slot has the choice between a Veteran or an Epistolary Librarian
Arkon4000 (re: Space Marine Assault Squad) said:Have you not seen the Scout Bike Squadron and the Land Speeder Storm? They are unlimited on all Priority levels. In my view the mission of the space marine scouts are the partols and the reconnaissance. The normal Bike Squadrons are for hit and run missions or for fast assaults. And based on the Codex Astrates only the Assault Marines of the battle companies and all members of the 8. Reserve Company drive the bikes and attack bikes.
Yes, I'd seen the availability of the Scout assets and agree with you about their primary use being recon and harassment. I also still think my suggestion of Assault Marine assets is also valid. They are the kind of forces you can rapidly re-deploy to meet an unexpected threat, or would fill in the recon role should Scouts not be available. Certainly I think they should be as available as Devastators.
Arkon4000 (re: Terminator Landraider Transport) said:This transport option, they should definitely get and I had listed that in the appropriate unit description also. But I would like to make this option depend on the availability of appropriate Armor Assets. They still have their teleport option to arrive the battlefield.
Arkon4000 (re: Techmarine Armoury slots) said:You could be right that there are too few slots. But I'm not sure what number is reasonable for one Techmarine.
We could actually combine these two along the lines of the Ironclad Dreadnaught. So the Landraider (or Ironclad) still costs an Armoury Asset slot, but is made as a transport option for Terminators and available at lower PLs as a result.
Additionally, extra gear in the Armoury - Teleport Homers, speciallist Siege Gear - minefields and fortifications.
Arkon4000 (re: Rapier) said:No problem with that. I had taken this idea from the 2nd Edition because I like the weapon.
I like it too, but it's best to leave some of the cool toys for the other armies instead of making it, or an equivalent, available to the Space Marines.
Arkon4000 (re: Mission specific slots - Tarantuala) said:Your reasoning is correct. But how we can implement this meaningful, that they are used only for defense missions?
Arkon4000 (re: Mission specific slots - Drop Pods) said:See my comment for the Librarian. I would like to add that we can make them unlimitedly available and control their selection with the available Fleet Assets. What do you thinking about that idea?
I agree it is a difficult thing to make meaningfull. While drop pods are also equally viable for a defensive mission (getting emergency reinforcements to a battlefield) they are also used to spearhead the plaentary assault. I do like the suggestion of making them unlimited, but controlling there availability with another unit e.g. Librarians or the Master of the Fleet.
Additionally, should the Vindicator have the same availablitiy as a Predator?