2nd Age Balazar

Griffin Mountain has a decent history of Balazar in the Second Age. Basically, it's Troll/Elf stronghold, with encroaching barbarian tribes.

Balazar himself doesn't show up until 1082 to unify the tribes and later build the citadels.

This might be interesting for a campagin late in the Second Age that leads into the Dragonkill War.
 
I thought they pulled the Griffin Mountain stuff out of Glorantha back with Griffin ISalnd? Are they putting Griffin Mountain back into Glorantha?
 
I don't think Griffin Mountain was ever "pulled" from Glorantha, merely that when they reprinted it, they presented a 'generized' version instead.
 
Yup, never happened.

The Glorantha Boxed Set listed Balazar as a blank land, but when asked about it Greg Stafford was like "Balazar? A blank land? When is that supposed to have happened?!?"

I'm guessing that has been an Avalon Hill thing, with the stoopid Griffin Island rework of the Balazar material.
 
I think I am going to have to pull out Griffin Isalnd. I recall reading something in it about why it had been pulled from Glorantha and about Slarges and all that. At least I think I do. I mean, it been what, 20 years since I read the thing?.
 
I was thinking second age Balazar as a good place to start off a group of Gloranthan newbies in a game. Human civilisation is relatively simple and primitive. Non-humans are there to interact with, though hardly overrunnig the place as it is still fairly wild. It isn't too far for the PC's to travel to interesting areas of human civilisation and the cultures of Uz, Giants, Mostali and Aldryami. Not to mention EWF.

Largely I like to think of Griffin Island as a resource pool to pinch stuff to add to my Griffin Mountain book. I have a great love for Griffin Mountain*. I was the first RQ book I'd bought, just before I got the RQ3 box set. I'm definitly keeping Balazar IMG. My first decent cool PC was a Balazaring shaman.

*To the extent that after locating a mint copy I sold my old one for a few bucks ot a friend. Then after two weeks I rang and offered to swap my mint one with the old one that I had so many good memories associated with, ink, pencil, crayon, texta, curry and coffee stains included.
 
Okay time to whip out my RQ anorak. Paul Jacquays originally wrote Griffin Mountain as a "Gateway" supplement for generic use, but Greg liked it so much he persuaded Paul to rework it as Gloranthan whereupon it has become a classic part of the Gloranthiverse. Avalon Hill, possibly unwisely, oh who am I kidding, unequivocally idiotically, decided to restore it to the original non-specific setting. Largely because at the time they wanted to promote non-gloranthan RQ in order to avoid having to run everything past his Staffordness before release. Unfortunately for them Glorantha was one of the biggest reasons people bought RQ and I suspect always will be.

RQ minus 14
 
CharlieMonster said:
Unfortunately for them Glorantha was one of the biggest reasons people bought RQ and I suspect always will be.

RQ minus 14


While I agree with the first part of your assumption I do not agree with the second part. Mongoose tries to change the character of RQ by releasing it as OGL and with additional fantasy settings. These two moves will make the system more independent from Glorantha. It will introduce young and fresh players to the rule system. At the same time they release at least 2 new settings: Lankhmar and King Arthur. Next year they maybe use MRQ for their very successful conan line. And this is just the beginning. With OGL every game company could use MRQ for its own setting. So I dont think that Glorantha will be the main reason that people buy RQ in the future. It will be just one among other interesting settings.

Maybe in two years we speak about the new X-man game which uses MRQ rules, who knows? Or how about a dark scifi setting?
 
Enpeze said:
Mongoose tries to change the character of RQ by releasing it as OGL and with additional fantasy settings. These two moves will make the system more independent from Glorantha.
Maybe the OGL makes this more feasable, but doing just what you said was essentially a failure for both RQ2 and RQ3. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that I suspect that the majority of people that played Questworld set it in Glorantha.

Without the Glorantha specific rules, the system winds up being another BRP. I wonder what will be left when you strip out the Gloranthan mechanics from MQ?

-- skill based characters (not class)
-- resistance table
-- detailed combat (damage avoidance, hit locations, damage reduction)

To this, you canoptionally add a magic system. Either something new, or an adaption of one of the three existing
-- memorized skills
-- magic point based
-- skill based
 
Enpeze said:
CharlieMonster said:
Unfortunately for them Glorantha was one of the biggest reasons people bought RQ and I suspect always will be.

RQ minus 14


While I agree with the first part of your assumption I do not agree with the second part. Mongoose tries to change the character of RQ by releasing it as OGL and with additional fantasy settings. These two moves will make the system more independent from Glorantha. It will introduce young and fresh players to the rule system. At the same time they release at least 2 new settings: Lankhmar and King Arthur. Next year they maybe use MRQ for their very successful conan line. And this is just the beginning. With OGL every game company could use MRQ for its own setting. So I dont think that Glorantha will be the main reason that people buy RQ in the future. It will be just one among other interesting settings.

Maybe in two years we speak about the new X-man game which uses MRQ rules, who knows? Or how about a dark scifi setting?


In other words, Mongoose is planning on making all the same mistakes than AH did. RQ was the #2 Fantasry RPG, and in a postion to challenge AD&D, until Avalon Hill took Glorantha out of the mix. I suspect they will have the same results.

THe whoole, new settings being a draw sort of thing has a flaw to it. The D*D crowd generally don't buy other RPGs. So for RQ is going to have to lure players away from D&D (not easily done). THis is going to require something that RQ can offer than D&D cannot. SO far, the only setting book that doesn't have one orf more D&D analogues is Glorantha. THe typical D&D DM is more likely to buy the AD&D Lankhmar stuff (used and lower cost) and convert it, than go buy a new system AND a new setting.

At least that's been the trend for the last 30 years.
 
I disagree with the notion that RQ can't be successful outside of Glorantha. There are a lot of reasons why RQ/AH didn't work out very well, and none of them can be traced to breaking away from Glorantha. First, there's the price that RQ3 came out at: a huge killer of sales IMO. It was $40 for the boxed set when you still pick up the 3 core AD&D books (in high quality hardcover) for $35 and AD&D had all the advantages of market share and product recognition. Second, a good portion of the non-Glorantha material was horrid. If the material had been good, it would have done well, or if the good material like Vikings had been supported, it would have done well. Third (and most important), Glorantha material was mostly redundant from RQ2 and then frequently broken up into several peices and sold for more money. Also, that material was infrequent, so there was never consistent support. It wasn't until the early 90s that new high quality Glorantha adventures came out: 6+ years after RQ3 was released and 8+ years since the last new Glorantha material was released.

I'm a big Glorantha fan and will continue to play most of my RQ in Glorantha, but it's a huge logical fallacy IMO to use the RQ/AH model to state that RQ can't be successful outside of Glorantha. Put out materials of the quality of Vikings from RQ3, support it, and it will do well. The system supports the play quite well. It just needs support.
 
atgxtg said:
In other words, Mongoose is planning on making all the same mistakes than AH did. RQ was the #2 Fantasry RPG, and in a postion to challenge AD&D, until Avalon Hill took Glorantha out of the mix. I suspect they will have the same results.

No, not at all this time. IMO, beside the general fact that times are changing, there are 2 fundamental differences. First MRQ appears as OGL licence. RQ3 did not.
Second AH was primarly a wargame company which wanted to sell roleplaying stuff too. For example they tried to introduce Powers & Perils some years before and it was also a failure. So one can say while they were very good in their primary business "wargaming", their abilities lacked in the "roleplaying" business. Mongoose on the other hand is a company which is specialized in making roleplaying games and they are very skilled in it. So to assume that there will be the same results is very unrealistic conclusion.

atgxtg said:
THe whoole, new settings being a draw sort of thing has a flaw to it. The D*D crowd generally don't buy other RPGs. So for RQ is going to have to lure players away from D&D (not easily done). THis is going to require something that RQ can offer than D&D cannot.

MRQ can offer a better and more realistic RP experience. Many people will take notice from this advantage, dont you think?

atgxtg said:
SO far, the only setting book that doesn't have one orf more D&D analogues is Glorantha.

Well you can say its the only setting for MRQ at the moment. So it is easy to claim that its the only one which have one or more D&D analogues. Next on the list is Diomin which also has not many analogues to D&D. And then the list will become even longer. Lankhmar, King Arthur etc. These worlds all have at least as much differences in their analogues to D&D than Glorantha. And they have many fans.

MRQ has a chance to become a good alternative to D20 if Mongoose do it well. And while Glorantha fans will be a large part of the initial customer base they will not by far be the only ones. Especially if bigger settings like conan will be converted to MRQ next year.

The problem with the Glorantha fans is that they assume RQ is solely reserved for "their" world. But RQ has much more potential than just be a rule vehicle for Glorantha. In its basics it is a generic system and not just for fantasy. Its is as good for the most genres. You can use it for scifi and military adventures as well as for horror. I do this since 20 years without any problems. (I have to convert this and that but the final results are excellent)
 
I'm not using it to say that RQ can't be successful outside of Glorantha. What I am saying is that Glorantha has been, and contines to be the thing that draws new gamers into RQ.

RQ3's failure was mostly due to thier poor handling of GLorantha. Yeah, AH taking control of the line from Chaosium and producing a lot of crap supplmenets didn't help-but by that time the core RQ audience, was already unhappy, having shelled out a lot of money and gotten reprinted RQ2 stuff. It was a decade before we started to see new Glorantha stuff, and by them, most of the RQ fans had moved onto other games.

If RQ is going to succeed outside of Glorantha, it is going to need a unique setting. Something that can draw players into RQ, since they can't get that setting elsewhere, or at least not a D&D version.

So far, every setting coming out for MRQ except for Glorantha has been released for D&D in some form or other. What the game needs is at least one setting that only RuneQuest has. It could be a tie in with a series of fiction, it could be something written just for RQ, it just needs to be something that doesn't exisit for D&D.

I'm hoping that someone prints such a setting soon. Mongoose might do it, or a third party might, but it is needed. If you look at the sucessful RPGs out on the market, they all have a unique setting or two. Right now, the unique setting is Glorantha. Okay, so HeroQuest uses it too. There is a lot of overlap being RQ and HQ players. Anyone who was willing to try HQ is probably willing to at least try RQ. Getting the d20 crowd to try different ROG is a lot harder.

Or am I the only RQ player who has found it hard to get players to try games other than D&D?
 
Urox said:
Enpeze said:
Mongoose tries to change the character of RQ by releasing it as OGL and with additional fantasy settings. These two moves will make the system more independent from Glorantha.
Maybe the OGL makes this more feasable, but doing just what you said was essentially a failure for both RQ2 and RQ3. I don't think I'm going out on a limb in saying that I suspect that the majority of people that played Questworld set it in Glorantha.

I think it was a not a failure because they tried to separate RQ from Glorantha. It was a failure because AH didnt support the new setting Fantasy Europe setting at all. And without any support you return to the world you have some material of. (or you make your own setting like myself)


Urox said:
Without the Glorantha specific rules, the system winds up being another BRP. I wonder what will be left when you strip out the Gloranthan mechanics from MQ?

-- skill based characters (not class)
-- resistance table
-- detailed combat (damage avoidance, hit locations, damage reduction)

Damned, I was not aware that above things are Glorantha mechanics only. I used it in other worlds too and this for 20 years. Oops. :)

I have no problem if MRQ is called "being another BRP". Many rule elements of the various BRP games out there are much better than their counterparts in RQ3. (eg initiative, character generation etc.) And I hope Mongoose has used something from them for the new release.
 
Enpeze said:
Urox said:
Without the Glorantha specific rules, the system winds up being another BRP. I wonder what will be left when you strip out the Gloranthan mechanics from MQ?

-- skill based characters (not class)
-- resistance table
-- detailed combat (damage avoidance, hit locations, damage reduction)
Damned, I was not aware that above things are Glorantha mechanics only.
I probably was unclear in my post -- those are the elements that would remain, and are essentially BRP.

Enpeze said:
Second AH was primarly a wargame company which wanted to sell roleplaying stuff too.
So, would you say Mongoose is a RPG company, or a minatures company, and which one are they going to fail at? Or would say that a company can do more than one thing?
 
Urox said:
Enpeze said:
Urox said:
Without the Glorantha specific rules, the system winds up being another BRP. I wonder what will be left when you strip out the Gloranthan mechanics from MQ?

-- skill based characters (not class)
-- resistance table
-- detailed combat (damage avoidance, hit locations, damage reduction)
Damned, I was not aware that above things are Glorantha mechanics only.
I probably was unclear in my post -- those are the elements that would remain, and are essentially BRP..

I am sorry, my failure. This view I can fully agree.

Urox said:
So, would you say Mongoose is a RPG company, or a minatures company, and which one are they going to fail at? Or would say that a company can do more than one thing?

Its IMO primary a RP company. They sell minis too, but I am not sure how well this goes. Maybe B5 sells good. Of course a company could be successful in more than one genre. Like Games Workshop. But not AH.
 
Urox said:
So, would you say Mongoose is a RPG company, or a minatures company, and which one are they going to fail at? Or would say that a company can do more than one thing?

Historically GW went from being pretty successful with RPGs and boardgames to off the scale with miniatures. I think the concensus tends to be that Mongoose are at around the late 80s "on the GW scale", with equivalent if not better success with RPGs and now finding their feet with miniatures. If it's handled properly there's no reason why they can't be the next GW miniatures-wise - certainly with the current plastics there's pretty much nothing to criticise.

The thing is, GW decided to dump the RPG side of their business because the miniatures side was so much more profitable (and they were arguably diluting their own miniature sales by "letting" their customers buy RPGs). The hope most of us have is that Mongoose doesn't follow GW's lead here and keeps the RPG side of the business going as well. There have been a few problems here and there, but given the amount of products they've been churning out this is probably no more than can be expected statistically-speaking.

Quality-wise for miniatures, I'd probably rate the SST plastics above anything else Mongoose are producing right now (that I've taken the time to look at myself). As long as they can get everything else up to that quality they certainly shouldn't fail on that side of things.

For RPGs, pretty much everything they've sold from day one has been a "success" - again there's been the occasional problem product (I wont bring up the specifics again after all this time as they're best left forgotten and buried). As long as everything continues to be produced to the same quality as B5 and the Conan Atlantean Edition, then they shouldn't fail here either.

The problem is that success and failure is so easy to interpret differently through different people. A product that gets ten vocal complaints on the message board can easily be seen as a "failure", until you take into account the few thousand customers that bought it and did not complain about it.

Back to the question - In my opinion, Mongoose have what it takes to succeed in both markets. Whether they do or not is only something time can tell - they (or anyone else) could make the most incredible cockup in the history of gaming tomorrow and be gone this time next year, but it's more likely they will not.

At the end of the day it's possible to make a living making RPGs. It's possible to make a fortune making miniatures (if anyone doesn't know why just yell and I'll happily bore everyone to death explaining it yet again ;))
 
atgxtg said:
I think I am going to have to pull out Griffin Isalnd. I recall reading something in it about why it had been pulled from Glorantha and about Slarges and all that. At least I think I do. I mean, it been what, 20 years since I read the thing?.

I heartily recommend you get the Griffin Mountain reprint that is now awailable. Griffin Mountain is still one of the best RPG modules ever, and the new art that has been added to it is really nice.

In comparison Griffin Island is a travesty.

<edit : damn a typo on the punchline>
 
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