2E Worth it?

[Lone Gunman]

All valid points, but as it seems no other fleet appart from Centauri got their main weapons to the side. Should I now circle the battlefield without laser fire?

Don´t underestimate the Hyperions power under the new beam rules; especially in groups of two or three

While I get 3 Hyperions, Narn get 6 Ka'tan. that 100% more firepower for minimal worse stats.

 

[Greg Smith]

The Ka'tan's no longer have 2 lasers, so they don't. Why don't you wait until you see the book before condeming it?

 

[Court Jester]

The Ka'tan's no longer have 2 lasers, so they don't. Why don't you wait until you see the book before condeming it?

Because that would take ALL the fun away... :wink:

 

[Da Boss]

All valid points, but as it seems no other fleet appart from Centauri got their main weapons to the side. Should I now circle the battlefield without laser fire?.

Centauri are very front gun heavy and more vulnerable to being flanked / attacked in the rear - there are a few exceptions but the majority of ships - especially lower levels have only a couple of arcs - especially strike ships like Vorchan, Demos, Sullust. Suits me - Charge!!!!!!!

 

[Lone Gunman]

3: how many skirmish ships have a 4AD beam to the front and a 2AD beam to the rear plus carry fighters. also think of the survivability, beams hit you on 4s now rather than starting on 3s.

Since when is the Hyperion Skirmish-Level? As per the s&p it remains at raid.

 

[Da Boss]

3: how many skirmish ships have a 4AD beam to the front and a 2AD beam to the rear plus carry fighters. also think of the survivability, beams hit you on 4s now rather than starting on 3s.

Since when is the Hyperion Skirmish-Level? As per the s&p it remains at raid.

I think he is refereing to your comparison of the Hyperion with Skirmish level ships
3. a raid level ship which is only the equal of other races skirmish ones(Hyperion)?
again check!
- ie it is better than Skirmish ships..........

 

[Lone Gunman]

Better than skirmish ship, ok. But where do we know from that it compete with other raid ones? The only comparison we have is the centurion presently. And again, why should I ever bother fielding large ships? Could someone tell me a good reason to?

 

[animus]

I've been trying to find reasons to field fewer big ships for a while now. I thought that the redundancy/bulk rule would help their survivability enough to encourage their use. Now, I'm a little worried with all the "swarm" stuff. It's going in the wrong direction.

I suspect some kind of fleet organizational rules are going to be necessary. Something along the lines of for a 5 point raid fleet, at least 2 points need to be spent on raid ships or larger.

I dunno, but I'm getting worried. :shock:

 

[Court Jester]

THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

 

[MustEatBrains]

THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

You´re an odd one, aren´t you? :wink:

 

[WereRogue]

THE SKY IS FALLING! THE SKY IS FALLING!

You´re an odd one, aren´t you? :wink:

Maybe, but he's valid. Seems in every game system I've ever played there have always been "Chicken Little" posters who cry doom and gloom over snippets of information they have without every actually seeing a copy of the rules in question.

-Ken

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Worried about swarm fleets? Here's a thought - just don't use them. Stock your gaming group with players who also refuse to use cheesy advantages, and continue to play characterful, balanced fleets.

There, solved your problem. 2nd ed is saved.

 

[CZuschlag]

Worried about swarm fleets? Here's a thought - just don't use them. Stock your gaming group with players who also refuse to use cheesy advantages, and continue to play characterful, balanced fleets.

There, solved your problem. 2nd ed is saved.

Right until you hold a tournament with a 1st place prize. Guess who that's going to? Or, if nothing else, guess how much fun people will have playing that fleet ....

.... here's an idea. Just fix the problem. There are many, many suggestions on how to do so already (within the rule mechanic). All we need is to pick one, and stand by it. Not hard!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

When a tournament winner gets booed out of the hall after using his cheesy fleet, he might re-think his methods for next time. Winning is winning, but being ostracised by your gaming buddies for being a cheese-meister is something else...

 

[Celisasu]

When a tournament winner gets booed out of the hall after using his cheesy fleet, he might re-think his methods for next time. Winning is winning, but being ostracised by your gaming buddies for being a cheese-meister is something else...

Considering that nobody got booed out of the halls for winning tournaments with the 10 Sag fleet or the Hunter/Scout fleet or whatever else I doubt they're going to be booed into quitting for using the 40 Tethys/Sho'kos/Haven fleets. For some people the win is everything. I hear people say "Well then the players shouldn't allow that person to play". But isn't it the job of the game to be designed in such a way that people can play a balanced game? That's the designer's job, not the players.

As you said, the swarm won't be that big an issue among friends. But it will be a problem when strangers gather for tournaments because someone will bring a swarm to that. In large groups, multiple someones.

Of course the real question is, are swarms that powerful or not in 2nd Edition? I guess I'll have to wait until I see the book. But if they are that powerful, there's a serious problem.

 

[WereRogue]

But isn't it the job of the game to be designed in such a way that people can play a balanced game? That's the designer's job, not the players.

Yes and No. There are always going to be player who exploit the rules for cheesy advantages just for the win, no matter how fairly they're written or how balanced they are. There's only so much a game designer can do to plan for those situations.

I'm not saying that the current swarm advantage is or isn't one they can avoid, though.

However, it's just as much our duty as players to provide a fun, exciting and fair game for our opponents. Thus, we avoid the cheese.

Of course, not everyone adheres to the tenents of good gamesmanship, so it's up to those who do to decide how to deal with those who don't.

-Ken

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The emphasis is on us, though, to encourage good players and punish bad ones, not on the designers to force us into doing things they see as balanced. We should be able to choose our fleets without being restricted to "balanced" choices handed down from on high. As long as the units are individually balanced for their cost, the rest can be left up to us.

 

[Tzarevitch]

Worried about swarm fleets? Here's a thought - just don't use them. Stock your gaming group with players who also refuse to use cheesy advantages, and continue to play characterful, balanced fleets.

There, solved your problem. 2nd ed is saved.

Right until you hold a tournament with a 1st place prize. Guess who that's going to? Or, if nothing else, guess how much fun people will have playing that fleet ....

.... here's an idea. Just fix the problem. There are many, many suggestions on how to do so already (within the rule mechanic). All we need is to pick one, and stand by it. Not hard!

Maybe I missed something, but are we really sure that it IS reallya problem? Just because it looks like a problem on paper doesn't mean that it really is one in practice. It sounds like the final verson of the rulebook isn't even out yet. Toning down the crit-hit tables, triple-damage e-mines and shield-type systems and all-around weapons would seem to me to make the alleged swarm - fleet idea dicey. I guess it really depends on how capable these swarms really are though, although that is something ELSE we should wait and see on.

Tzarevitch

 

[animus]

Any rules will be exploited and loopholes found. However, it's the game designer's job to plug those holes when they arise to better the game.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Any rules will be exploited and loopholes found. However, it's the game designer's job to plug those holes when they arise to better the game.

But it usually takes a while until we know for certain that a certain gap really exists - the good old new army book/codex syndrome. All we know at the moment is that those swarms might become a major problem - however, given some time, it is perfectly possible that people will come up with new tactics to counter those fleets. Also, they might not be suited for all of the many scenarios that make ACTA such an interesting game...

So, I say give the whole thing some time, and let players come up with new ideas to counter what´s supposed to be nearly unbeatable or a loophole, in this case the swarms. I guess it will take up to several months until we can be sure whether or not there is a problem here...

of course, all those concerns raised by the people on this forum exist for a reason and should make us aware of something we should keep a close eye on.

Still, it is a little early to cry havoc and condem the whole game befire even the full ruleset is out and in the hands of the gamers.