2300AD - A suggestion

[Azgulor]

Actually, while I have you all...

One of my peeves/issues with 2300AD is that, unless you are familiar with the 2300AD universe, it is not always obvious to newcomers as to what characters should actually do. You have the corporate/government troubleshooter kind of role, there are military-style campaigns, but I always felt that this was a little niche and should not be the 'default' (in the way that shady traders are the 'default' in Traveller).

What are you guys doing for character/party roles in 2300AD?

I like the more grounded take that 2300AD brings to the table. That said, slavish devotion to the older editions is a mistake, IMO. A heretical view, I'm sure.

While I like the more grounded take of the setting, it still needs to be about adventure. My 2300AD universe takes a lot of inspiration from The Expanse, Netflix's Lost in Space & Altered Carbon, Outland, Alien & Aliens, the Starfield video game, Cowboy Beebop (the real one, not the Netflix one) and other 'near-future' influences. Establishing outposts, colonizing worlds, troubleshooting, space western, bounty hunting, cyberpunk in the core, etc.

Basically, I want to play Traveller - just not in the Imperium.

While I like the vertical deckplan layouts and the lack of gravitics, my players want horizontal deckplans and artificial gravity. I hate the idea of combat at stutterwarp speeds, and my players bounced off the 'nuclear-pumped laser warheads' HARD.

The sheer volume of 'regular' Traveller stuff makes the limited selection of 2300AD gear seem lackluster in comparison. So, in my 2300AD, I'm mostly using Traveller Higher Guard and CSC material and supplementing with 2300AD personal gear that fills in gaps and vehicles. I want to be able to use my Traveller catalog but strip out anything above TL12, gravitic vehicles, and anything Third Imperium-specific. I like having some setting differences that justify some rule variants in 2300AD (computer tech, lack of gravitics, variant careers, different aliens), but it should be 90% 'default' Mongoose Traveller 2e (unified personal equipment, vehicles, spaceships). There should be variances or options to highlight the differences. They shouldn't be incompatible rules.

I realize I'm probably in the minority of 2300AD fans, but I like buying your Traveller products (across both lines) and using them. So, if 2300AD is going to lean even further into its origins and its original rules, I understand. But my campaign is probably going to look a lot more like a "my Hostile setting powered by Traveller 2e", than a "my 2300AD" campaign in the end.

 

[Avollant]

Regarding scenarios, I saw another comment from Seth Skorkowsky where he mentioned doing a Session Zero, in part to help players become familiar with the game rules. However, based on my own experiences, that kind of availability isn’t always possible. In many cases, it’s the Game Master (GM) who owns the books, and most players expect to learn the rules through them during play.

That’s why I started thinking about Solo Adventures, which, once reworked, could become training modules for either GMs or players who want to learn the game’s mechanics while also experiencing a short narrative.

Taking inspiration from choose-your-own-adventure books (which these solo modules are already based on), they could be redesigned so that, by the end, players have practiced around ten specific tasks or objectives—things like picking a lock, hacking a computer, finding a clue, etc. It could also cover different types of combat: unarmed, melee, firearms, and so on.

In that sense, modules like "The Terror’s Lair" and "Marooned Alone" could be repurposed into structured learning tools. And if each task were paired with an illustration and a reference to the rulebook page explaining the mechanic, you could end up with something quite useful.

What do you think?

 

[boggo2300]

I like the more grounded take that 2300AD brings to the table. That said, slavish devotion to the older editions is a mistake, IMO. A heretical view, I'm sure.

While I like the more grounded take of the setting, it still needs to be about adventure. My 2300AD universe takes a lot of inspiration from The Expanse, Netflix's Lost in Space & Altered Carbon, Outland, Alien & Aliens, the Starfield video game, Cowboy Beebop (the real one, not the Netflix one) and other 'near-future' influences. Establishing outposts, colonizing worlds, troubleshooting, space western, bounty hunting, cyberpunk in the core, etc.

Basically, I want to play Traveller - just not in the Imperium.

While I like the vertical deckplan layouts and the lack of gravitics, my players want horizontal deckplans and artificial gravity. I hate the idea of combat at stutterwarp speeds, and my players bounced off the 'nuclear-pumped laser warheads' HARD.

The sheer volume of 'regular' Traveller stuff makes the limited selection of 2300AD gear seem lackluster in comparison. So, in my 2300AD, I'm mostly using Traveller Higher Guard and CSC material and supplementing with 2300AD personal gear that fills in gaps and vehicles. I want to be able to use my Traveller catalog but strip out anything above TL12, gravitic vehicles, and anything Third Imperium-specific. I like having some setting differences that justify some rule variants in 2300AD (computer tech, lack of gravitics, variant careers, different aliens), but it should be 90% 'default' Mongoose Traveller 2e (unified personal equipment, vehicles, spaceships). There should be variances or options to highlight the differences. They shouldn't be incompatible rules.

I realize I'm probably in the minority of 2300AD fans, but I like buying your Traveller products (across both lines) and using them. So, if 2300AD is going to lean even further into its origins and its original rules, I understand. But my campaign is probably going to look a lot more like a "my Hostile setting powered by Traveller 2e", than a "my 2300AD" campaign in the end.

If I want to play Traveller, I will play Traveller, if I want to play 2300 I will play 2300 which is COMPLETELY different, and largely incompatible with Traveller (and both the setting NOT 2320 the actual, well thought out setting) and the rules are significantly different from Traveller, and really need to be to work properly in the setting From what I've heard, Mongoose 2300 is the dodgy AF 2320 mangling of the setting tacked onto the not especially compatible Traveller rules. I'd rather not (I say from what I heard because I refuse to buy 2 games to play 1 game, even if I have 1 of those games already)

 

[Sigtrygg]

By play Traveller do you mean play in a setting you have invented using the Traveller rules as was the original intention of Traveller, or do you mean play in some version of The Third Imperium setting? Put another way are you one of those who sees the Third Imperium setting as Traveller?

Traveller as a rule system can run any sci fi setting:
Star Wars, Star Trek, Blake's 7, the Culture, are just some of the settings I have run using Traveller rules. 2300 as a setting can be run using Traveller rules no problem at all. To do so I would go back to basics and pick from the setting only as outlined in T2300, then 2300AD, but there are still bits of current MgT2e 2300 I would use as I think they are an improvement to the setting. I would stick to Star Cruiser for ship design and ship combat though, or do a better job adapting Star Cruiser to current Traveller ship design.

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

For near future Traveller there is always the interstellar war era and the Terran Confederation. I am surprised Mongoose hasn't done that as a setting.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It still belongs to SJG, a Mongoose version could be written but would have to avoid copying, much like MgT Sword Worlds is different to the GURPS version.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It still belongs to SJG, a Mongoose version could be written but would have to avoid copying, much like MgT Sword Worlds is different to the GURPS version.

When will that be changing? Mongoose owns all of the rest of Traveller.

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

It still belongs to SJG, a Mongoose version could be written but would have to avoid copying, much like MgT Sword Worlds is different to the GURPS version.

I am unsure of the legal status, and it depends on whether MWM inserted a clause for ownership (or compulsary purchase?) of all licenced products. He'd sent much time trying to acquire ownership of the Judge's Guild stuff etc., and I know he never owned the Digest material.

For 2300AD, Colin once stated that the legal situation was MWM did not own 2320, which remained property of QLI, and so he was forbidden from using it.* If that's the case, 2320 is not the property of Mongoose, but they are safe because British and US law requires copyright to be enforced in a relatively timely manner.

* That would be typical of a licencee contract - the licencee owns what they create with the contract, but they can't distribute anything after the licence expires.

 

[Sigtrygg]

SJG still sells GT pdfs on its web store, and Marc still sells the compilation discs/USB/dropbox compilations.

As to the status of 2320, Mongoose has all the QLI T20 stuff, so I wonder what has happened to 2320?

 

[Azgulor]

If I want to play Traveller, I will play Traveller, if I want to play 2300 I will play 2300 which is COMPLETELY different, and largely incompatible with Traveller (and both the setting NOT 2320 the actual, well thought out setting) and the rules are significantly different from Traveller, and really need to be to work properly in the setting From what I've heard, Mongoose 2300 is the dodgy AF 2320 mangling of the setting tacked onto the not especially compatible Traveller rules. I'd rather not (I say from what I heard because I refuse to buy 2 games to play 1 game, even if I have 1 of those games already)

Traveller is a ruleset. 2300AD is a setting. The Third Imperium is a setting. The new Dark Conspiracy - will be a setting. All using Traveller.

 

[collins355]

Traveller is a ruleset. 2300AD is a setting. The Third Imperium is a setting. The new Dark Conspiracy - will be a setting. All using Traveller.

True for Mongoose, complete with the annoying need to have the Corebook for 2300 character generation, skills etc.

But the original GDW 2300AD was a different ruleset (it used D10s, gasp!) AND a different setting from Traveller.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Traveller is a ruleset. 2300AD is a setting. The Third Imperium is a setting. The new Dark Conspiracy - will be a setting. All using Traveller.

It is nice to think so, and I would love to agree with you, but you can't play 2300 with just the Traveller CRB. You can't. Show me where stutterwarp technology is in the CRB? You can play Third Imperium with just the CRB. The problem is that the CRB contains the rules for the Third Imperium Setting, but not the rules for any other setting. Meaning that Traveller is no longer a generic ruleset. It is a setting. Show me stutterwarp in High Guard. High Guard is a Traveller rules book, not a setting book, but none of the stuff from 2300 is in there. Lots of Third Imperium stuff in there though.

 

[Azgulor]

True for Mongoose, complete with the annoying need to have the Corebook for 2300 character generation, skills etc.

But the original GDW 2300AD was a different ruleset (it used D10s, gasp!) AND a different setting from Traveller.

Then...play the GDW 2300AD if that's the one you prefer? And those of us who want to use the Traveller ruleset will use it for Traveller 2300AD games.

 

[Azgulor]

It is nice to think so, and I would love to agree with you, but you can't play 2300 with just the Traveller CRB. You can't. Show me where stutterwarp technology is in the CRB? You can play Third Imperium with just the CRB. The problem is that the CRB contains the rules for the Third Imperium Setting, but not the rules for any other setting. Meaning that Traveller is no longer a generic ruleset. It is a setting. Show me stutterwarp in High Guard. High Guard is a Traveller rules book, not a setting book, but none of the stuff from 2300 is in there. Lots of Third Imperium stuff in there though.

By your logic, you can't play GURPS Traveller with just the GURPS Core Rulebook (any edition). You can't play classic Traveller with just Book 1. Science fiction is so broad, it's going to have variances across different settings. There are alternative FTL drives in High Guard, but because there isn't an entry for Stutterwarp, it can only be used for the Third Imperium? I don't think so.

I'd prefer if Traveller core books didn't have Third Imperium content within them, but aside from the historical and tradition-based reasons for it, they also serve as an example for referees looking to use Traveller as a toolkit. If Traveller rulebooks were 100% setting-agnostic, we'd have people complaining that the rulebooks are just a toolkit and didn't present enough information to a referee to run a game 'out of the book'. And they'd likely be correct. I'd be fine with 2300AD having its own core rulebook but I think you'd just be exchanging one problem for another.

 

[Azgulor]

Also, given the number of editions of Traveller, 2300AD, and Twilight 2000 that have been produced over the years, I fail to see what's to be gained by slavish devotion to earlier content. I certainly understand wanting to be consistent with earlier content but if game design, technology, and scientific knowledge all progress over a 50-year period, we can only include the content that was originally produced for Traveller? That's a terrible way to grow the game, the player base, or run a company. I'm not a fan of 'wipe out and start over', so I'm not advocating for T:TNE style sweeping changes to settings, but it's getting really tiring to see constant or repetitive arguments for thinly veiled "you're playing it wrong" jabs with respect to Traveller, and 2300AD, in particular. The purity tests aren't showing why Traveller or 2300AD are great.

You can look at the range of Cepheus content out there and see the Traveller rules (however you want to label them) being applied to science fiction beyond the Third Imperium and 2300AD, and they work fine. So, please quit handcuffing Mongoose and telling the Traveller fanbase that Traveller and 2300AD 'can't do this or that'. There's a middle-ground to be had where earlier editions are honored while new game innovations, technological and setting expansions, and playability are also key criteria.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Also, given the number of editions of Traveller, 2300AD, and Twilight 2000 that have been produced over the years, I fail to see what's to be gained by slavish devotion to earlier content. I certainly understand wanting to be consistent with earlier content but if game design, technology, and scientific knowledge all progress over a 50-year period, we can only include the content that was originally produced for Traveller? That's a terrible way to grow the game, the player base, or run a company. I'm not a fan of 'wipe out and start over', so I'm not advocating for T:TNE style sweeping changes to settings, but it's getting really tiring to see constant or repetitive arguments for thinly veiled "you're playing it wrong" jabs with respect to Traveller, and 2300AD, in particular. The purity tests aren't showing why Traveller or 2300AD are great.

You can look at the range of Cepheus content out there and see the Traveller rules (however you want to label them) being applied to science fiction beyond the Third Imperium and 2300AD, and they work fine. So, please quit handcuffing Mongoose and telling the Traveller fanbase that Traveller and 2300AD 'can't do this or that'. There's a middle-ground to be had where earlier editions are honored while new game innovations, technological and setting expansions, and playability are also key criteria.

Good luck! You are talking about an IP. Look at Tolkien Fans, Star Wars Fans, Star Trek Fans, etc. Look at the Wheel of Time TV show that they just cancelled. Took something incredibly popular, with a huge fanbase, and then tried to "make it his own". Nobody wanted that. They wanted the books that they are had read to be seen on the screen.

Same with Traveller. Same with D&D. Some of the best D&D fluff stuff every written was 2nd edition with some good 3rd edition pieces. Rule-wise Pathfinder 1 (D&D 3.75) was the best of the lot, but even that got a lot of hate.

So, good luck

 

[boggo2300]

Orrr we can take Matt at his word that he is going to get around to fixing Mongoose 2300 so that most of us don't hate it, and he can sell more copies of it...

Which is what I'm doing

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

Aaaand there will still be complaining ... I'm sure ... it is Traveler after all

 

[boggo2300]

Aaaand there will still be complaining ... I'm sure ... it is Traveler after all

thats part of the problem, 2300 isn't traveller, and had very little in common with it in setting, enough different that it's rules don't work very well for 2300