10 Sagittarius Fleet - at Mongoose Towers
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Nidalap said:
Nope. http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/miniature/detail.php?qsID=1218&qsSeries=Call%20to%20Arms
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Whitestar the second most broken ship out there? Say what?!?!
Now the SFoS one was possibly a bit too good and I havent seen the Armageddon version but the tourney version (which by the sounds of the SFoS one is very similar to) was fine. Yes it was a nasty ship but still perfectly fair.
As for the Drakh mothership, yes you get a bit more 'bang for your buck' but it takes a while to actually launch all those raiders and in consider the firepower your opponent can field for that war point, and he can often take the raiders down as they launch and then blow the relatively weak Mothership to pieces.
I do think the however that as a test of how broken the sag fleet is using 5 Whitestars is a pretty dumb idea as it is fleet with VERY unique capabilities. Also even in this case youre left with a situation youre left with the WS fleet using every trick in the book, orbiting while CAFing, dodging in and out of terrain etc that STILL LOST to a fleet that requires little more tatcics than 'shoot the bad guys till they go boom'.
Also bear in mind that the REAL nastiness of the saggs is in the sheer number of crits they tend to roll (which you admitted they rolled poorly on this game). And add to that that Whitestars on average will IGNORE half of the hits scored on them which has a HUGE effect on a fleet that relies on crits.
I would like to see the 10 sagg fleet beaten by another race without fancy traits all over the place like EA, Centauri, Narn etc. And further to that dong set out to build a fleet specifically designed to fight the saggs, build a normal tourney fleet and see what happens.....
Now as Ive yet to see armageddon I dont know if the Sagg has changed but if its still skirmish and still as tough with even CLOSE to the firepower the tourney one had I shall have serious reservations...
Now the SFoS one was possibly a bit too good and I havent seen the Armageddon version but the tourney version (which by the sounds of the SFoS one is very similar to) was fine. Yes it was a nasty ship but still perfectly fair.
As for the Drakh mothership, yes you get a bit more 'bang for your buck' but it takes a while to actually launch all those raiders and in consider the firepower your opponent can field for that war point, and he can often take the raiders down as they launch and then blow the relatively weak Mothership to pieces.
I do think the however that as a test of how broken the sag fleet is using 5 Whitestars is a pretty dumb idea as it is fleet with VERY unique capabilities. Also even in this case youre left with a situation youre left with the WS fleet using every trick in the book, orbiting while CAFing, dodging in and out of terrain etc that STILL LOST to a fleet that requires little more tatcics than 'shoot the bad guys till they go boom'.
Also bear in mind that the REAL nastiness of the saggs is in the sheer number of crits they tend to roll (which you admitted they rolled poorly on this game). And add to that that Whitestars on average will IGNORE half of the hits scored on them which has a HUGE effect on a fleet that relies on crits.
I would like to see the 10 sagg fleet beaten by another race without fancy traits all over the place like EA, Centauri, Narn etc. And further to that dong set out to build a fleet specifically designed to fight the saggs, build a normal tourney fleet and see what happens.....
Now as Ive yet to see armageddon I dont know if the Sagg has changed but if its still skirmish and still as tough with even CLOSE to the firepower the tourney one had I shall have serious reservations...
Nidalap said:
New ship, introduced in Armageddon. Think of it as the (very nice) replacement for the Hyperion. I have a feeling this may be the most popular of ships introduced in Armageddon. . .
katadder said:
I have to disagree, the Marathon's LPA's have pretty good range (good against high-hull ships) in laser mode, interceptors 4 are a signifigant improvement, it's much more manuverable, and it's way better on Traits. And of course the beam. Not as survivable as an Omega though. I would consider it more of a highly improved Hyperion as far as its' capabilities go. It's one of the best EA Crusade-era ships IMO.
Morpheus1975
Mongoose
Where can we download the tourney stuff from Armageddon?
Celisasu
Mongoose
So far what I'm seeing, the solution to the 10 Sag fleet problem is to play a 10 Sag fleet. Forgive me for not being impressed.
White Stars are almost ideally designed to fight the Sag and even there they lost.
What would happen to say....the Narn if they fought this fleet? Their best ship for Skirmish or Raid is the Ka'Tan. 4AD of Super AP, Double Damage, Beam weapons. This has the bonus of making the Sag hull effectively hull 3 and the beams would ignore interceptors.
Of course by the time I got to fire them I'll probably have lost anywhere from 3 to 5 Ka'Tans due to the Sag's greater range and that 60 AD of Super AP, Precise missles. Plus the one or two Sho'kar's I included as initiative sinks/initiative rerolls/pseudo-CAF systems.
Or how about the Vree? How would they do against the 10 Sag fleet?
The Drazi?
The Centauri?
What about EA fleets that don't use 10 Sags(or 9 Sags and a scout)?
Obviously I speak mostly as a Narn player as that's the fleet I'm familiar with but I don't really see any fleet having much of a chance against the Sag fleet. It was the dominant fleet before being upgunned.
White Stars are almost ideally designed to fight the Sag and even there they lost.
What would happen to say....the Narn if they fought this fleet? Their best ship for Skirmish or Raid is the Ka'Tan. 4AD of Super AP, Double Damage, Beam weapons. This has the bonus of making the Sag hull effectively hull 3 and the beams would ignore interceptors.
Of course by the time I got to fire them I'll probably have lost anywhere from 3 to 5 Ka'Tans due to the Sag's greater range and that 60 AD of Super AP, Precise missles. Plus the one or two Sho'kar's I included as initiative sinks/initiative rerolls/pseudo-CAF systems.
Or how about the Vree? How would they do against the 10 Sag fleet?
The Drazi?
The Centauri?
What about EA fleets that don't use 10 Sags(or 9 Sags and a scout)?
Obviously I speak mostly as a Narn player as that's the fleet I'm familiar with but I don't really see any fleet having much of a chance against the Sag fleet. It was the dominant fleet before being upgunned.
I'm racking my brain to come up with a fleet to beat 10 Sag's. I do have Armageddon stats but not the tourney PDF. Does the new tourney pack break down EA ships into eras? Or is a Sag illegal with Crusade-era ships?
Since there's got to be no such thing as an unbeatable fleet I'm interested.
Since there's got to be no such thing as an unbeatable fleet I'm interested.
msprange said:
I've never thought the first CTA White Star was broken either nor did I have a problem playing against the SFOS version that many on the forum fretted over. The ISA fleet is so limited that they need the White Stars to be an above average ship if they are going to be competitive.
There are always going to be ships that are more difficult to deal but that doesn't make them unbalancing. Now the EA Sagittarius at Skirmish is a different story, but the reason is because it can launch an over abundance of precise missiles and since its skirmish one can stack their fleet with alot them. Your only hope against the 10 Sag fleet is a considerable amount of terrain combined with good speed to negate their long range or play the ancient races that are immune to crits and even then they are extremely difficult to overcome against someone who knows how to use them properly. It can be done and I've done it several times with different combinations but no matter how one approaches the problem, it will take a very select specialty fleet to overcome the 10 Sag speciality fleet. It usually takes cheese to overcome cheese.
Just my two cents,
Chewy
_________
Semper Fi
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
Mat why not have a re-match and take picts and battle report
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Chewy!
C'mon -- if the world says there's an issue with a ship, there probably is! Even our local ISA expert -- who won the largest US tournament yet with the Tourney WS, so apparently, it's not a below par ship now -- says the SFoS Whitestar was grossly busted, he's probably right!
We shouldn't be accepting flawed balance without attempting to correct it. We know how good stuff that done "Close Enough for Government work" ends up --- like crap!
Even saying this, though, you're right about the 10 Sag. I don't actually think there is ANY cheese fleet that stands a chance now. Do I need to reinstitute my challenge? Internationally to prove my point? Heck, if I turn it into a wager, I'll make more than enough money to pay for the airfare. And maybe, finally, I can get my point proven. By sledgehammer, if need be.
C'mon -- if the world says there's an issue with a ship, there probably is! Even our local ISA expert -- who won the largest US tournament yet with the Tourney WS, so apparently, it's not a below par ship now -- says the SFoS Whitestar was grossly busted, he's probably right!
We shouldn't be accepting flawed balance without attempting to correct it. We know how good stuff that done "Close Enough for Government work" ends up --- like crap!
Even saying this, though, you're right about the 10 Sag. I don't actually think there is ANY cheese fleet that stands a chance now. Do I need to reinstitute my challenge? Internationally to prove my point? Heck, if I turn it into a wager, I'll make more than enough money to pay for the airfare. And maybe, finally, I can get my point proven. By sledgehammer, if need be.
CZuschlag said:
Matt made a comment he had no prob with the 1st edition WS and I replied back to him, neither did I or any of the later edition WS. The SFOS WS is by far the most powerful version of this ship and with such a low dodge is extemely difficult to deal with. I playtested SFOS for Matt before its release, though the version of WS I playtested didn't have as low a dodge as was officially released. Does the low dodge in SFOS make the WS busted? Many say yes, though if you take the ISA collectively, I think not. Your entitled to think so if you choose. The WS has always been a very good above average ship and I believe it should be. Just because somone wins a large tourney with an all WS tourney fleet doesn't necessarily imply a ship is busted or too powerful. I think it demonstrates that they understand the fleet and know how to optimize its strengths and protect its weaknesses. The WS is a ship that seasoned tactical players will excel with but non-seasoned players will struggle using. The reason is because less experienced players won't understand how the ship is to be played at its optimal.
I agree the SFOS WS is an exceptional Raid ship and the tourney WS is a very good Raid ship. The reason I don't believe either are busted per se is becsause the ISA is a very limited race with limited choices. The race has problems dealing with certain other races because their so one dimensional. I say this based on alot of experience. I have been playing ACTA since it first came out. I have played well over 2500 skirmishes since that time. I have no favorite race or fleet, I tend to play them all and I rarely lose a skirmish so I think I understand tactics as well as anyone else and my experience with the ISA collectively is that the WS needs to be an above average Raid ship and I believe it is. You can agree or disagee, it's no sweat off my back.
Chewy
_________
Semper Fi
