Small Craft and Marines

[Sigtrygg]

@Sigtrygg: Would you say that what Tytalan said above would have been essentially correct prior to the Second World War?

Pretty much yes. In the days of Empire the Royal Marines were essentially the Royal Navy Infantry, ship's troops, base guards etc at he said.
Even as some were redesignated and trained to commando standards there were still Marine units assigned to their old jobs, which did include manning some of the big guns on capital ships

Post WWII was when the change to commando status for every RM became a thing, the British Army discontinued commando units, and with the reduction of British Armed forces post war and decline of Empire the RM lost all their roles appart from commando.

 

[Condottiere]

As I mentioned above, it depends on what you want them to do.

Onboard a Royal Navy ship, you have only so much space, and if you need a security contingent to deter revolting seamen, you need a multipurpose trooper.

You could always levy a bunch of sailors to make a landing party, but Marines became specialized for onboard combat, manning the guns, and eventually, damage control.

Manning the guns is now rather more complicated, but if the ship is in danger of getting mission killed, all hands on deck.

And the crew now live in the lap of luxury.

So, that leaves making life difficult for people you don't like.

The British Empire could scrounge expeditionary forces from all over, but the Americans usually infiltrate settlers and carpet baggers, but that's a tad more difficult for overseas colonies, easier when it's just over the border into Texas, the West Coast, and parts inbetween.

So you need a combined arms force that's self sustaining, and voluntary, to avoid awkward questions about exporting democracy and freedom to more reluctant participants, from the electorate.

I'm sure the Imperium has a similar viewpoint.

As for the Confederation. political issues would be answered with Solomani Security peacekeeping forces, which would leave the raiding aspect, onboard security, ship boarding, and if equipped with battle dress, direct frontal assault, for the Solomani Confederation Marine Corps.

 

[collins355]

As others have noted, Imperial (Star?) Marines have had an implied combined arms nature since CT Book 2 and LBB4 where vehicle skills were available (in the "Service Skills Table" in Book 2 for example). LBB4 added Heavy Weapons skill and Battle Dress skill in the MOS Table of the expanded Marine character generation system. The implication being that Marines have vehicles, heavy weapons and Battle Dress.

The article in JTAS #12 by Loren Wiseman then gave us a sample Imperial Marine task force organisation drawn from a line marine regiment. The article includes the following quote on page 42: "a marine regiment includes two lift cavalry companies, one grav tank company, and one commando company". While noting that Marines serving just as ships troops do not usually carry anything but hand weapons and lack vehicles (on page 44), the article outlines the task force as being equipped with Grav APCs, modified air/rafts, utility sleds, and a meson gun vehicle.

CT/Striker then added an example Imperial Marine combat vehicle (the 12dT TL15 Imperial Marine Grav APC on page 29 of Book 3).

DGP then gave this vehicle a name in Mega Trav/101 Vehicles (the TL15 "Empress" APC on page 19 - "a popular model with the Imperial Marines").
MegaTrav character generation states (page 50 of Players Manual) that "The Army and the Marines have five combat arms that are identical: Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, Support, and Commando."

TNE/Regency Combat Vehicle Guide and TNE/Striker-II retain the Imperial Marine Grav APC and detail it and other Imperial Marine combat and support vehicles using the TNE/FF&S design system. RCVG adds details for the vehicles mentioned in Wiseman's JTAS article - such as the Meson gun vehicle or the scout air/raft. Striker-II gives us an organisation of a Marine task force consistent with Wiseman's article, and adds the structure of an Imperial Marine Armoured Cavalry unit.

 

[tytalan]

As others have noted, Imperial (Star?) Marines have had an implied combined arms nature since CT Book 2 and LBB4 where vehicle skills were available (in the "Service Skills Table" in Book 2 for example). LBB4 added Heavy Weapons skill and Battle Dress skill in the MOS Table of the expanded Marine character generation system. The implication being that Marines have vehicles, heavy weapons and Battle Dress.

The article in JTAS #12 by Loren Wiseman then gave us a sample Imperial Marine task force organisation drawn from a line marine regiment. The article includes the following quote on page 42: "a marine regiment includes two lift cavalry companies, one grav tank company, and one commando company". While noting that Marines serving just as ships troops do not usually carry anything but hand weapons and lack vehicles (on page 44), the article outlines the task force as being equipped with Grav APCs, modified air/rafts, utility sleds, and a meson gun vehicle.

CT/Striker then added an example Imperial Marine combat vehicle (the 12dT TL15 Imperial Marine Grav APC on page 29 of Book 3).

DGP then gave this vehicle a name in Mega Trav/101 Vehicles (the TL15 "Empress" APC on page 19 - "a popular model with the Imperial Marines").
MegaTrav character generation states (page 50 of Players Manual) that "The Army and the Marines have five combat arms that are identical: Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery, Support, and Commando."

TNE/Regency Combat Vehicle Guide and TNE/Striker-II retain the Imperial Marine Grav APC and detail it and other Imperial Marine combat and support vehicles using the TNE/FF&S design system. RCVG adds details for the vehicles mentioned in Wiseman's JTAS article - such as the Meson gun vehicle or the scout air/raft. Striker-II gives us an organisation of a Marine task force consistent with Wiseman's article, and adds the structure of an Imperial Marine Armoured Cavalry unit.

Exactly and MegaTraveller also gave us the Trepida and Astrin which are the most common tank and APC Rebellion Sourcebook

 

[Geir]

I know this is not OTU, but I always found the idea of the Imperial Army unworkable and assumed the Imperial Marines were the Third Imperium's ground combat arm, with local worlds responsible for all Army (as in the career and the organization) units and very few of them ever deployed off their homeworlds.

In that case, it makes sense that the Marines have all of the combat arms, because even long term deployments under Imperial authority and offworld fighting in wars was all Marines. But that's just me.

 

[WHULorigan]

I know this is not OTU, but I always found the idea of the Imperial Army unworkable and assumed the Imperial Marines were the Third Imperium's ground combat arm, with local worlds responsible for all Army (as in the career and the organization) units and very few of them ever deployed off their homeworlds.

In that case, it makes sense that the Marines have all of the combat arms, because even long term deployments under Imperial authority and offworld fighting in wars was all Marines. But that's just me.

I think the GT: Ground Forces model of the "Unified Armies of the Imperium" tried to address that to a certain degree by suggesting that the Imperium uses something akin to the "Regimental System", wherein the majority military forces scattered across the Imperium are in fact local "Planetary Defense Forces" of individual worlds, but that each member-world of sufficient population raises one or more Regiments from its own forces to be trained-up to an "Imperial Standard" as an "Imperial Regiment" or Regiments for off-world deployment, trained by the core Imperial Army cadre. Thus individual worlds recruit for the Imperial Army through their own local "Imperial" Regimental organizations with their own local unit traditions, names, and types. That gives the "Imperial Army" a lot more local flavour and colour (and a lot more opportunity for players of former Army characters to come up with colourful unit backgrounds).

 

[WHULorigan]

Pretty much yes. In the days of Empire the Royal Marines were essentially the Royal Navy Infantry, ship's troops, base guards etc at he said.
Even as some were redesignated and trained to commando standards there were still Marine units assigned to their old jobs, which did include manning some of the big guns on capital ships

Post WWII was when the change to commando status for every RM became a thing, the British Army discontinued commando units, and with the reduction of British Armed forces post war and decline of Empire the RM lost all their roles appart from commando.

So in a sense you could look at the Imperial Marines as somewhat of a fusion of the USMC and RM at the time of the Second World War: Combined Arms capability along with the older Royal Navy Infantry, Ship's Troops, Base Guards, and Gunners billets, while also having the Special Forces Commando Arm.

 

[Condottiere]

I find the idea of the Imperium Army actually being a rip off of the Imperial Guard rather appealing.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Imperium has three "services"

The Imperial Interstellar Scout Service is a major service within the Imperium.
equal in stature to the Imperial Army and the Imperial Navy,

The major services are thus defined as
Scouts = Army = Navy
whereas the Imperial Star Marines amongst others are a minor service.

 

[tytalan]

The Imperium has three "services"

The major services are thus defined as
Scouts = Army = Navy
whereas the Imperial Star Marines amongst others are a minor service.

Source

 

[tytalan]

I know this is not OTU, but I always found the idea of the Imperial Army unworkable and assumed the Imperial Marines were the Third Imperium's ground combat arm, with local worlds responsible for all Army (as in the career and the organization) units and very few of them ever deployed off their homeworlds.

In that case, it makes sense that the Marines have all of the combat arms, because even long term deployments under Imperial authority and offworld fighting in wars was all Marines. But that's just me.

I agree totally. The Army always seem to make more sense as a local force possibly required and Draftable by the imperium but strictly a local force.

 

[tytalan]

Found this on the Wiki and it makes more sense especially since it places the Marines are the primary imperial force and the army as more local defense forces.
“The Unified Armies of the Imperium is built upon the regimental system, in which each sufficiently populous Imperial world within a subsector raises a regiment (typically of three to five battalions) from its own planetary defense force to be equipped and trained to Imperial standards. The battalions of these regiments are then deployed to the various brigades of the Imperial Army as needed, which are in turn organized into Imperial Army divisions. Imperial Army organization typically extends to the subsector level, and is under the ultimate authority of the local Subsector Duke, who generally appoints a Subsector Marshal to oversee its operations within his demesne. Large scale operations (as are typical during wartime) are overseen by the Sector Grand Marshal who is generally appointed by the presiding Sector Duke.”

 

[Sigtrygg]

Source

LBB:6 Scouts.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Found this on the Wiki and it makes more sense especially since it places the Marines are the primary imperial force and the army as more local defense forces.
“The Unified Armies of the Imperium is built upon the regimental system, in which each sufficiently populous Imperial world within a subsector raises a regiment (typically of three to five battalions) from its own planetary defense force to be equipped and trained to Imperial standards. The battalions of these regiments are then deployed to the various brigades of the Imperial Army as needed, which are in turn organized into Imperial Army divisions. Imperial Army organization typically extends to the subsector level, and is under the ultimate authority of the local Subsector Duke, who generally appoints a Subsector Marshal to oversee its operations within his demesne. Large scale operations (as are typical during wartime) are overseen by the Sector Grand Marshal who is generally appointed by the presiding Sector Duke.”

And is utter tosh when you consider that the Imperial Army has equal status to the Imperial Navy, a fact obviously overlooked by the author of this Combined Armies of the Imperium.

The Imperial Army is a major service, the Imperial Star Marines are a minor branch.

 

[WHULorigan]

And is utter tosh when you consider that the Imperial Army has equal status to the Imperial Navy, a fact obviously overlooked by the author of this Combined Armies of the Imperium.

The Imperial Army is a major service, the Imperial Star Marines are a minor branch.

The quote from the wiki is largely a summation of the info in GT: Ground Forces.

 

[WHULorigan]

Found this on the Wiki and it makes more sense especially since it places the Marines are the primary imperial force and the army as more local defense forces. ....

I am not sure that I would say that it makes the Imperial Army a local defense force. I would agree that the local Planetary Armies (i.e. "Colonial Armies" or "Planetary Defense Forces") act as local defense forces like the US Army National Guard & Air National Guard (and other nations' "home guard" forces that have them) and back up the Imperial Army locally, but the locally-raised "Imperial Regiments" under this Regimental System may in fact contribute a significant amount of manpower to the larger Imperial Army organization thru the Battalions of the Regiments that they contribute to the various Imperial Brigades and Divisions. It is not necessarily that the Imperial Army Forces are either minor or small in number, just that the overall Command and Control is more decentralized and responds primarily at the Subsector or Sector level, and only mobilizes at levels higher than that during a major war when the Domain and Capital get involved.

In an Imperium that is somewhat "overextended" and has had to grant significant "home-rule" provisions to its extended frontier regions, and where it cannot get involved in brushfire wars or minor local conflicts because it has to be prepared for major engagements on those fronts should they occur, an Imperial Army will instead be focused on training maneuvers and preparedness for its strategic mission, while counting on local forces to hold their own back-yard. That means that the Imperial Army presence in a Sector is not necessarily huge, relatively speaking.

But that being said, it does not necessarily mean that the Imperial Marines are a major Imperial Fighting Force by comparison, as they are primarily a Naval asset. Imperial Marines (and Marine Commandos), other than Ships'/Base Troops and Guards, are a hammer that Imperial Naval Forces have at their disposal to make quick work of certain surface-force adversaries, but not necessarily for anything that will require large numbers of committed troops or require long-term staying/holding power. For that you call in the Imperial Army to back you up.

 

[collins355]

Exactly and MegaTraveller also gave us the Trepida and Astrin which are the most common tank and APC Rebellion Sourcebook

Actually MegaTrav states that the Trepida was only introduced in 1109 and the Astrin three years later (see 101 Vehicles page 17). So they largely missed the FFW. There is no indication that the Imperial Marines are issued with either (that was a GURPS Trav Alternative TU invention of the late Doug Berry).
Note that you'll find no mention of either in CT material, because they were a DGP invention. In CT you have a different standard grav tank and a different standard APC for the Imperial Army and Ducal Huscarles, with the IMperial Marines having their own design APC as was discussed up-thread.
Note further that the Trepida and Astrin as designed by DGP in MegaTrav are pretty poor vehicles and certainly more likely to be "mobilisation" vehicles intended for mass production on numerous worlds (they're also only TL14) as the FFW ground on. Hence, they may be common in the Rebellion era, as is suggested in Rebellion sourcebook at page 86.

 

[collins355]

And is utter tosh when you consider that the Imperial Army has equal status to the Imperial Navy, a fact obviously overlooked by the author of this Combined Armies of the Imperium.

The Imperial Army is a major service, the Imperial Star Marines are a minor branch.

Yes, this was all an invention of the late Doug Berry (and was round criticised on TML at the time) for the GURPS Alternative Traveller Universe. In what I always thought was a failure of imagination, he decided the armed forces of a star-spanning empire in the 57th Century would resemble those he was most familiar with.

 

[Condottiere]

Another way of looking at it, would be if you're willing to deploy army units out of (their) area, and they have to suck it up.

 

[tytalan]

Actually MegaTrav states that the Trepida was only introduced in 1109 and the Astrin three years later (see 101 Vehicles page 17). So they largely missed the FFW. There is no indication that the Imperial Marines are issued with either (that was a GURPS Trav Alternative TU invention of the late Doug Berry).
Note that you'll find no mention of either in CT material, because they were a DGP invention. In CT you have a different standard grav tank and a different standard APC for the Imperial Army and Ducal Huscarles, with the IMperial Marines having their own design APC as was discussed up-thread.
Note further that the Trepida and Astrin as designed by DGP in MegaTrav are pretty poor vehicles and certainly more likely to be "mobilisation" vehicles intended for mass production on numerous worlds (they're also only TL14) as the FFW ground on. Hence, they may be common in the Rebellion era, as is suggested in Rebellion sourcebook at page 86.

Actually the Rebellion Source Book is core MegaTraveller book and despite the rumors the core books were not written by DGP. Marc Licensed DGP to do a bunch of support for MegaTraveller since he was going on to other projects. The Trepida and Astrin are not DGPs creation. And yes you will fine a mention of tank/APC in the 12/10 ton range in the spindward marches campaign which is not only CT but the CT sourcebook that gives the breakdown of FFW