Small Craft and Marines

[Peleliu]

Just a couple of observations of Traveller details I appear to have missed for the past 40+ years:

I just recently noticed that many ship classes are missing small auxiliary craft (other than fighters). You would figure all large ships would have at least a couple of gigs, pinnaces, or cutters. The Kokirrak and Plankwell dreadnoughts have a decent mix of small craft...Tigress has none. Carriers too seem to be lacking.

Marines also seem to have no regular pattern of what ship classes they are on and are missing from most classes. Naval personnel can handle most routine boarding or ceremonial tasks so marines aren't required for all vessels, but you would figure there would be more marines sprinkled around the ships of the fleet.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Regarding Tigress and carriers, the Imperial Navy book addresses this, and it’s the beauty of standard tonnage - any number of heavy fighters can be replaced by cutters or troop transports as needed.

 

[Condottiere]

Hull configuration counts.

Sworld Worlders had a rather generic smallcraft system.

 

[Micky]

Marines also seem to have no regular pattern of what ship classes they are on and are missing from most classes. Naval personnel can handle most routine boarding or ceremonial tasks so marines aren't required for all vessels, but you would figure there would be more marines sprinkled around the ships of the fleet.

interesting topic I'd love to see more written about as TBMK there not a whole lot of detail about them but what there is sort of reinforces the notion that the Navy handles most routine boarding missions not the marines. They are organized into regiments (Marine Expeditionary Units) of 3500 , Each subsector has a numbered MEF in addition to its own fleet. Other than their primary wartime mission which you figure the vast majority of their time was spent in training for, the books seem to make clear their primary peacetime mission is walking the line and asset protection of fleet depots and navy bases. There really hasn't been much that I know of written on the numerical/percentage breakdown of the various branches of the marines but you got to figure that redundancy ain't really a efficient kind of thing and that the Star Marines are probably the smallest of the three branches of the marines as the navy can well do that same job.

Just my two cents but I'd say only the largest navy ships get a regular assignment of marines, those more ceremonial than anything, but as those ships seem to be relatively static, and keep to main bases and leave patrolling the systems and protecting trade to the smaller ships I'd say I wouldn't think there are more, but probably less, marines sprinkled about the fleets. As shipborne operations aren't really their prime mission, but instead being the first in on planetary/ground assault and make room for the army and protecting high value potential targets like bases.

 

[Condottiere]

I would think that at a Marine regiment per subsector (fleet), there are not enough to go around, considering their role(s) and commitments.

 

[Micky]

I would think that at a Marine regiment per subsector (fleet), there are not enough to go around, considering their role(s) and commitments.

especially if you consider the least glamorous of the three marine branches.. even in the far future there would probably still be a significant tooth to tail ratio of support personnel to actual (peacetime) front line troops eating into those already limited numbers of marines for normal peacetime duties such as guarding depots as opposed to serving as shock troops on navy ships again doing what the navy can do for itself and offer up boarding parties to search suspicious ships and fighting pirates.

Again I would tend to see them as token 'ceremonial force' on the larger capital ships as part of the 'showing the flag' duties impressing the local yokels, not just with big shock inducing ships but with bad ass awe-inspiring troops lol.

 

[Peleliu]

I would think that at a Marine regiment per subsector (fleet), there are not enough to go around, considering their role(s) and commitments.

I tend to think of their organization much along the lines of historical USMC organization. Historically, Marine detachments for ship duty, base security, embassy guards, defense battalions, etc., fall outside the organization of a fixed expeditionary regiment. As a whole, they also represent a fraction of the infantry posted to line battalions.

In the Third Imperium, however, the reverse might be true. Detachments may represent the largest contingent of the Imperial Marines while the expeditionary regiments are the smallest. I can easily see two or three regiment equivalents dispersed across a sector's fleet and bases in addition to a concentrated MEF on standby.

 

[Condottiere]

Support is supposed to be lean, with the Navy providing the fatty bits.

Even if you use the GURPS variant, that's still guard details on navy stations, and onboard security, plus commandoes, secondment, detachments, advanced training, leave, medical treatment, transit.

 

[collins355]

In GDW's Fifth Frontier War boardgame, the Imperial player has 8 Marine Regiments available from the start. These regiments may be deployed on any Imperial world in the portion of the Spinward Marches depicted by the game map that has a naval base (about 5 subsectors).
The game rules specify that an Imperial BattleRon may embark a maximum of 4 regiments of Marines. A CruRon may carry troop battalions equal to its defence factor (typically Imperial CruRons in the game have a defence factor of between 6 and 8, so they can carry a single Marine regiment).

 

[Condottiere]

Could be six subsectors, one forward deployed, and one (immediate) reserve.

 

[collins355]

Could be - a standard Imperial player tactic in FFW boardgame is to send a raiding fleet off into the Neutral Zone and then (hopefully) Zhodani space with a good Admiral in charge (i.e. one with planning factor zero ideally, or planning factor one at a pinch). You load up that fleet with Imperial Marines and/or the Duke of Regina's Huscarles and set out to raid/capture high-tech but poorly defended Zhodani worlds and generally cause mayhem behind the Zhodani lines. You hope to draw the Zhodani player into committing a disproportionate amount of his invasion force in chasing them down.

Come to think of it - that would make a good plotline for an adventure or two.

 

[phavoc]

In Traveller ships I'd think destroyers and cruisers would have Marine detachments as they are the types of ships that would be most likely to get deployed in singletons to worlds and systems where there might be a mission for them. BC's and BB's MAY get them, but you wouldn't deploy a single battleship for anything. If you go back to WW2 the marines onboard battleships did security and manned weapons - but I don't recall them deploying as a unit to do anything.

The age of sail had more marines onboard, but one of their tasks was to ensure mutinies weren't successful - not something I'd expect in Traveller navies. Though with a deployed detachment onboard you COULD see them equipped with more than just body armor and carried weapons - but giving them vehicles and battle dress would take up space and credits, so they may restrict such things to specific ships designed to carry marines to the battlefield and sufficient small craft to get them deployed to a world.

 

[Condottiere]

Large numbers of expeditionary Marines and troops would have specialized transports.

In theory.

 

[collins355]

In FFW Imperial Marines automatically count as jump (or drop if you prefer) troops who can assault from orbit via drop capsules - whereas in the Imperial Army only specially designated jump troops regiments can do that. Other Imperial Army units must reach planetside via landers, a more laborious method that requires aerospace control (in the game rules you can't unload if active SDBs remain, for example).

So, you can jump in-system with your speedy CruRons, ignore SDBs, launch a meteoric assault using Imperial Marines and get out of Dodge quickly once the raid is over.

 

[Condottiere]

Would depend on where you intend to refuel.

 

[phavoc]

In FFW Imperial Marines automatically count as jump (or drop if you prefer) troops who can assault from orbit via drop capsules - whereas in the Imperial Army only specially designated jump troops regiments can do that. Other Imperial Army units must reach planetside via landers, a more laborious method that requires aerospace control (in the game rules you can't unload if active SDBs remain, for example).

So, you can jump in-system with your speedy CruRons, ignore SDBs, launch a meteoric assault using Imperial Marines and get out of Dodge quickly once the raid is over.

Perfectly reasonable so long as the ships all carry frop capsule launchers and drop pods. It sounds really cool to make every embarked marine a battledress equipped one, but costs are massive.

Even fictional governments have to bow down before the accounting overlords and cry uncle when they are broke.

 

[Condottiere]

Someone has to remember to pick them up.

 

[collins355]

In the FFW boardgame as an Impie player I tend to leave them behind to occupy Zhodani worlds that have minimal/no local defence force. Occupying means adding victory points for the Imperium and also has a higher chance of forcing the Zhodani player to turn around some of his invasion force to take care of the problem in his rear areas.

But, yes, in theory you'd want some pinnaces to be on your ships to go down and pick up the raiding party or away party of meteoric assault Marines.

 

[steelbrok]

I've always felt the Army would be a better home for Drop Troops than the Marines.
An Army operation is likely to be en masse and have follow up waves of armour, arty, support.. The intent being to occupy the worl. Fits with the one way nature of Drop/Jump Troops.
The Marines being more likely to be in-and-out need to have landers to collect them and so might as well use the same ones to get to the surface.

 

[Condottiere]

The Paramarines (also known as Marine paratroopers) was a short-lived specialized combat unit of the United States Marine Corps, trained to be paratroopers dropped from planes by parachute. Marine parachute training which began in New Jersey in October 1940 ended with the parachute units being disbanded at Camp Pendleton, California in February 1944. Paratroopers received a significantly increased salary after completing training, so there was no shortage of volunteers, although all were required to be unmarried. Standards of fitness were high, and 40% failed the training course.