Your Evo experience

cordas said:
The Legend said:
Well If you are targeting the whole unit i.e the whole unit is inthe FZ then yeah. but if you're only hitting a few models at the back then you've got to take into account the LOS through these figures.

I was asking about models in the FZ, if there are models between the shooting unit and the FZ then they obscure or block LOS, my question has always been about do models inside the FZ do this for models behind them. I have always argued (and my examples have stated) that models inside the FZ can't provide obscurement or block line of sight.

As a proviso on that I would say larger models can, but that should be at the players discretion. It makes comon sense that a tank or tanker bug will block LOS to models hidding behind it, as they will block that unit from firing in return (different unit so can't be shot through).

This is down to being sensible. A tank will obviously block LOS to infantry stood behind it any infantry outside the FZ between the Firer and the target will also block or obscure LOS. Easy really. As I was explaining on Monday:

e.g. a unit of 8 infantry stand infront of a Light vehicle (say a shadow). The Firing unit will position a FZ on the Shadow and get 3 infantry in the fire zone. This is legal as the LOS to the Shadow isn't blocked, it's a larger size than the infantry so gains +1 obscurement to it's target as there are also some infantry (5) outside the FZ. The infantry inside the FZ also gain obscurement for the same reason.

Thats the way I've read these rules as working.
 
The Legend said:
cordas said:
The Legend said:
Well If you are targeting the whole unit i.e the whole unit is inthe FZ then yeah. but if you're only hitting a few models at the back then you've got to take into account the LOS through these figures.

I was asking about models in the FZ, if there are models between the shooting unit and the FZ then they obscure or block LOS, my question has always been about do models inside the FZ do this for models behind them. I have always argued (and my examples have stated) that models inside the FZ can't provide obscurement or block line of sight.

As a proviso on that I would say larger models can, but that should be at the players discretion. It makes comon sense that a tank or tanker bug will block LOS to models hidding behind it, as they will block that unit from firing in return (different unit so can't be shot through).

This is down to being sensible. A tank will obviously block LOS to infantry stood behind it any infantry outside the FZ between the Firer and the target will also block or obscure LOS. Easy really. As I was explaining on Monday:

e.g. a unit of 8 infantry stand infront of a Light vehicle (say a shadow). The Firing unit will position a FZ on the Shadow and get 3 infantry in the fire zone. This is legal as the LOS to the Shadow isn't blocked, it's a larger size than the infantry so gains +1 obscurement to it's target as there are also some infantry (5) outside the FZ. The infantry inside the FZ also gain obscurement for the same reason.

Thats the way I've read these rules as working.

Now move the FP forwards so all the unit and the shadow are in the FZ and tell me how you figure out who is obscured and not.

The reason why I would grant obscurement under your example to the troops is that the firing models are shooting PAST (trying not to hit them) the troops OUTISDE the FZ trying to hit those behind. Simple and obvious.

In my version of the example the shooting troops aren't trying to miss anyone, they are just blasting everything in the FZ, they don't need to take that obscurement penalty. Yes I know that the troops in front will act as a meat sheild to those behind, but find that irrelevant as they aren't having to try and miss them. Also I know this is fluff to a degree.

My arguement then moves onto the logistics of trying to work out who is and isn't obscured or blocked LOS in my example if those troops in front do give these bonuses to those behind.

If 1 shooting model has clear LOS to all, but the 2 find that only the front 4 are clear and these 4 then obscure the 4 troops behind them, and the last firing troop finds he can see 2 clear and the last 2 are blocked by the shadow. The Shadow is at the back and obscured by troops.

Now please tell me how you work out the shooting for this? To me it seems a complete nightmare that will take half an hour of arguements and frustration that will spoil the game.

My simple answer is that as all models are in the FZ and there is NO blocking or obscuring terrain between the shooting troops and the FP or FZ is that all the troops are classed in the clear and so is the shadow.
 
cordas said:
If 1 model (not always the same model for each target) in the firing squad can get clear LOS to each of the target models in the FZ, but the rest are obscured or blocked do the enemy models get any bonuses?

In the interests of simplicity, I would say that as long as one unit in the firing squad has clear LOS to the target model, the target doesn't get obscurement/blocked defensive bonuses. You'd expect shooters to take their clear shots before harder ones, so I don't think this is stretching things too much.
 
cordas said:
In my version of the example the shooting troops aren't trying to miss anyone, they are just blasting everything in the FZ, they don't need to take that obscurement penalty. Yes I know that the troops in front will act as a meat sheild to those behind, but find that irrelevant as they aren't having to try and miss them. Also I know this is fluff to a degree.

My arguement then moves onto the logistics of trying to work out who is and isn't obscured or blocked LOS in my example if those troops in front do give these bonuses to those behind.

If 1 shooting model has clear LOS to all, but the 2 find that only the front 4 are clear and these 4 then obscure the 4 troops behind them, and the last firing troop finds he can see 2 clear and the last 2 are blocked by the shadow. The Shadow is at the back and obscured by troops.

Now please tell me how you work out the shooting for this? To me it seems a complete nightmare that will take half an hour of arguements and frustration that will spoil the game.

My simple answer is that as all models are in the FZ and there is NO blocking or obscuring terrain between the shooting troops and the FP or FZ is that all the troops are classed in the clear and so is the shadow.

No. It's easier than that.

Say 4 figures in the FZ and one Shadow. The highest scoring die goes to the closest figure. then the next kill that can be allied to the next Infantry figure and so on till we come to the Target dice and the Shadow The Shadow gets obscurement as there are infantry models between it and the firer but this probably means it won't be hit as most of the Kill results will apply to the infantry which are the higher results.

That answer your question. It's exactly the same as applying DD to Intantry half in and out of terrain. Easy.

You've also got to remember that you've got to be able to see the FZ you are targeting so you can't set it directly behind the Shadow from you're firer. But if you use the Shadow as the target point you automatically asume that the infantry are incidental targets as you are aiming at the Shadow the infantry just take the hits first.
 
The Legend said:
cordas said:
In my version of the example the shooting troops aren't trying to miss anyone, they are just blasting everything in the FZ, they don't need to take that obscurement penalty. Yes I know that the troops in front will act as a meat sheild to those behind, but find that irrelevant as they aren't having to try and miss them. Also I know this is fluff to a degree.

My arguement then moves onto the logistics of trying to work out who is and isn't obscured or blocked LOS in my example if those troops in front do give these bonuses to those behind.

If 1 shooting model has clear LOS to all, but the 2 find that only the front 4 are clear and these 4 then obscure the 4 troops behind them, and the last firing troop finds he can see 2 clear and the last 2 are blocked by the shadow. The Shadow is at the back and obscured by troops.

Now please tell me how you work out the shooting for this? To me it seems a complete nightmare that will take half an hour of arguements and frustration that will spoil the game.

My simple answer is that as all models are in the FZ and there is NO blocking or obscuring terrain between the shooting troops and the FP or FZ is that all the troops are classed in the clear and so is the shadow.

No. It's easier than that.

Say 4 figures in the FZ and one Shadow. The highest scoring die goes to the closest figure. then the next kill that can be allied to the next Infantry figure and so on till we come to the Target dice and the Shadow The Shadow gets obscurement as there are infantry models between it and the firer but this probably means it won't be hit as most of the Kill results will apply to the infantry which are the higher results.

That answer your question. It's exactly the same as applying DD to Intantry half in and out of terrain. Easy.

You've also got to remember that you've got to be able to see the FZ you are targeting so you can't set it directly behind the Shadow from you're firer. But if you use the Shadow as the target point you automatically asume that the infantry are incidental targets as you are aiming at the Shadow the infantry just take the hits first.

Please answer my example? Answering a different example that doesn't use the same situation (or similar) doesn't explain anything.

Do the troops get obscurement? Yes or no? Surely if its that simple then that can be answered quickly and easily.

Does the Shadow get obscured or not is really a different question and I can almost see it both ways, yes its obscured by the troops, but if it is why?

Yes because some of the troops are also obscured / blocked, then which troops and why and from who (question asked above about troops)?

Yes because its a different unit? Why should that make any difference YOU AREN'T shooting a unit, you are shooting at a firing point, into a fire zone, anything in the fire zone will be hit.

Yes I know how DD are allocated that is easy and makes sense, its so simple its brillaint, but again that has nothing to do with my example.

Which troops are are blocked, obscured from who and why? I know I am labouring a point here, but I have asked this question about 2 or 3 times now and it has been answered each time by ignoring the examples I have given, using an example that I don't see as relevant. If you would use my example then it would be a lot easier for me to understand.

If you need me to explain more about my example I can, I think its a situation that could occur with fair frequency (well once shadows are released of course), its not like I am creating an obscure example to try and bend / break a rule as is done to prove a point, I am just asking PLEASE help me to understand what you are saying.
 
cordas said:
Please answer my example? Answering a different example that doesn't use the same situation (or similar) doesn't explain anything.

Do the troops get obscurement? Yes or no? Surely if its that simple then that can be answered quickly and easily.

I'm afraid I really don't understand why you don't understand. You only get obscurement if there is something in your line of sight that gets in the way of firing at your target. Models in the firezone can only really offer abscurement in they are smaller than the models behind them otherwise they block LOS.

There you go that covers your example.
 
The Legend said:
cordas said:
If 1 shooting model has clear LOS to all, but the 2 find that only the front 4 are clear and these 4 then obscure the 4 troops behind them, and the last firing troop finds he can see 2 clear and the last 2 are blocked by the shadow. The Shadow is at the back and obscured by troops.

I'm afraid I really don't understand why you don't understand. You only get obscurement if there is something in your line of sight that gets in the way of firing at your target. Models in the firezone can only really offer abscurement in they are smaller than the models behind them otherwise they block LOS.

There you go that covers your example.

Thank you, as 1 model can get clear LOS to all, none get obscurement, or blocked LOS. Simple thanks.
 
cordas said:
The Legend said:
cordas said:
If 1 shooting model has clear LOS to all, but the 2 find that only the front 4 are clear and these 4 then obscure the 4 troops behind them, and the last firing troop finds he can see 2 clear and the last 2 are blocked by the shadow. The Shadow is at the back and obscured by troops.

I'm afraid I really don't understand why you don't understand. You only get obscurement if there is something in your line of sight that gets in the way of firing at your target. Models in the firezone can only really offer abscurement in they are smaller than the models behind them otherwise they block LOS.

There you go that covers your example.

Thank you, as 1 model can get clear LOS to all, none get obscurement, or blocked LOS. Simple thanks.

No! Thats not it at all. All figures in the unit that are firing must have clear LOS to the FZ Thats what the rules say. Otherwise you would draw LOS through terrain/models that either block or obscure based on their size. that complicates things.
 
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