Xenoarchaelogist: stinks? Me?

[Polaris]

Everyone,

I am relatively new to the B5 game, and I am currently playing a scientist with a strong technical bent (i.e. an engineer). I had decided largely for RP reasons that I wanted to become a Xenoarchaelogist at least eventually.

However, looking at the mechanical PrC, it seems to me that the PrC is almost a complete waste of paper because many of the abilities it gives aren't that useful for a scientist type, are redundant to a scientist type, or are essentially worthless for the same (and yet this seems to be a scientist oriented PrC). However, the drawbacks to the PrC (low skill points) seem to be severe. The PrC can be found on pages 266-7 of the main rulebook.

The requirements are 5 ranks in Computer Use and Knowledge (specific race/culture), 8 ranks in Investigate, and 8 ranks in Galactic History. In addition you have to have the Alien Empathy feat, and you have to have the mental agility class feature.

1. To get the Alien Empathy feat, you have to have 6 ranks in Sense Motive which is a class skill neither for Scientist nor Xenoarchaeologist. Nor does that skill (at least by my initial reading) particularly help the classic scientist role (it seems much more suited for Agents, Diplomats, or both)....and none of the Xenoarchaelogist class abilities feed off this as well....so this seems like a completely wasted feat.

2. The Superior Knowledge class feature (at levels 1,3,7, and 9) of Xenoarch seems to be nearly completely worthless. Sure you get one rank in a knowledge (local/culture) skill, but it has to be one you don't already have. Given that you HAVE to have the mental agility class feature which means you already make trained rolls with these (or any other) knowledge skill anyway, this ability seems to be nearly completely useless (it adds +1 to the roll of knowledge skills you certainly will lack the ability to make at higher levels anyway). This would be different if the mental agility requirement wasn't there....but it is.

3. The class gives 3/4 bab, 2 hits per level, medium defense (+6 by level 10), AND a medium (fort) and good (reflex) save. For a PrC that's supposed to be a scientist albeit a field researcher, that seems to be overkill. Sure it's easy to justify any one of these, but all seem to be excessive. After all of a scientist type is leading the combat, something is definately wrong.

4. Finally, the class seems to be a combination of Agent and Scientist yet only gets 4 (base) skill points per level. That stinks for the role that the Xenoarchaelogist is supposed to do!

In short it seems to me that the Xenoarchaelogist seems to be a poor mechanical design because it lacks the skill points to do what it's supposed to do, and pays for it with class features that don't seem to help it.

Am I missing something? A lot of you have much more experience than I do, so your input would be greatly appreciated.

-Polaris

 

[thedarkelf007]

From my experience I have not read or checked the Prestige Classes as yet...

I've had me players look to the core classes in my first B5 2nd Ed Game.

Now having done a lot of D&D and knowing how well those Prc classes are made I woulod do the following.

- Make sure prerequsites have something to do with the class...
- Class bonuses actually give class related bonuses...
- Any attribute/attack/save progression makes sense for the character.

I have no trouble pulling Prc's apart, having done so numerous times to fit campaigns I have run. So what I suggest is you do this and make the class the way it "should" be made in your game.

If you like what you have come up with, Post it up here, or if you need help do the same. I believe just doing this exercise once or twice to be benificial, and helps let you know if a given class in the game is balanced (or built right) for your group.

Have fun

 

[Polaris]

Dark Elf,

Thanks for the reply. Actually I am a player (the engineer in question) in a group that is going through the ragged edge. I was going to (tomorrow...it's late where I am at) tallk with my GM about just that, i.e. changing the Xeno class to better fit it's flavor.

However, I was hoping to sample the collected wisdom of other B5 players before I made suggestions.

As for the prereqs, the only one that was a 'dog' was the Sense-Motive requirement (hidden), and I came up with a cute background explaination for that so it's no huge deal. In short, I love the flavor, but was looking for mechanical suggestions.

Please keep them coming if at all possible. If and when my GM and I settle on something, I'll certainly post it here and give my experiences (both good and bad) to boot.

-Polaris

 

[R Arceneaux]

Prestige classes are just that. Prestige.

As having played RPG of various names for over 10 years well lets just say that unless the Game Master starts the game at a very high level for the purposes of 'Power Play' you are going to have to work your way up over a period of time in order to just qualify for entry into many prestige classes.

So just start your way at the bottom entry level and slowly work your way up the food chain.

R Arceneaux

 

[Polaris]

Prestige classes are just that. Prestige.

As having played RPG of various names for over 10 years well lets just say that unless the Game Master starts the game at a very high level for the purposes of 'Power Play' you are going to have to work your way up over a period of time in order to just qualify for entry into many prestige classes.

So just start your way at the bottom entry level and slowly work your way up the food chain.

R Arceneaux

At the risk of sounding slightly annoyed, I have been. That the entire point!

For a presitigue class, the Xenoarchaelogist doesn't seem very prestiguous and in fact seems worse than the base class it stems from.

I don't need a lecture about the meaning of prestigue classes; I know that perfectly well. I was HOPING for some intelligent feedback w/r/t the nature of this prestigue class.

-Polaris

 

[R Arceneaux]

Re The P guy....

If you think that is bad, just being barely greater, I have it much much worse.

Heck I should be the one with a gripe.

I always run telepaths as characters (LOL I just like to have that ability to zap peoples minds) and as such I have always wanted to be Psy Cop. HOWEVER if you check the qualifications for the prestige class of Psy Cop you have to be a P12. And there are only two ways to get that. Either roll a PERFECT MAX on the D4s and take every inch of bonus psy level immediately on level 1--RIGHT like I am going to get a perfect max roll on D4s. OR experimental adaptation via Psy Corps or Vorlons--neither of which is acceptable to me. The Vorlons will enslave you. The Psy Corps will make you a Psycotic basket case. AND then probably disect you.

So, I have it much much worse then a the case of the 'its almost useless'. At least its attainable. If you/or should I say I start out at a P rating of less than a perfect 12 or are willing to risk killing the character (worse turning it into a psycopath in experimental mental augmentation) you are screwed and will never ever be a Psy Cop.

The BEST level I have ever achieved as telepath is P 10--so close yet soooooo far. The Game Master threw me a small bone and allowed me to play a Bloodhound Unit Member on special orders.

And I understand the needing/longing to play the so called "Power" game. MIGHT I suggest then perhaps a change of job descriptions to a job description more suited to the 'Power Game'. A job that has more 'Powerful' Prestige Classes.

However, if you think that Mother Mongoose needs to beef up the Prestige Classes for certain job descriptions drop them a line expressing your concerns.

In closing remember that if you play a telepath, in public always growl and snarl. Look mean and be aloof. Let the Uniform and the Personna do most of the work for you.

R Arceneaux

 

[lastbesthope]

RA,

You have a 1 in 16 chance of rolling max on the 2 d4 - 2 roll. That's probably a lot better odds than a teep in B5 has of being a P12.

LBH

 

[Mongoose Gar]

The Xenoarchaelogist in the main book is very much in the mould of Indiana Jones in Spaaaaace - about half his abilities are based on dodging traps and running away from angry space gods.

The xenopsychologist from the IPX book might suit your character better. It's a combination of Diplomat and Scientist.

 

[Polaris]

The Xenoarchaelogist in the main book is very much in the mould of Indiana Jones in Spaaaaace - about half his abilities are based on dodging traps and running away from angry space gods.

The xenopsychologist from the IPX book might suit your character better. It's a combination of Diplomat and Scientist.

Mongoose Gar,

Since I don't have the IPX book and as I understand it, it won't be out until April, could you please tell me how the IPX Xenoarchaelogist differs from the one in the main book?

This is the sort of feedback I am looking for btw, but could you please be more explicit (since IPX isn't out for general publication yet)?

-Polaris

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

(I just previewed my answer...woah. Sorry about the length. Hope it helps answer what you were asking...)
I just read over the class, and while I'm not the best at working out bonuses and the like, it seems like a decent class to me. On the subject of "what am I missing", I might be able to help. I'll try to hit your initial points one for one.

First off, B5 2e is kind of designed to be a multi-class game. Since you can only advance to level 10 in any given class, it's expected that high level characters will have more than one class under their belt. As a GM, I get rid of "favored class" and xp penalties for uneven class levels because of this. Given that, you can meet your xenoarch requirements with one level from some other class. If you're playing a pure scientist, yeah, it's hard to hit the prerequisites, but one level of some other class, while a pain, isn't a deal breaker, since that often happens with prestige classes.

Second, the "Indiana Jones in Space" idea is an important point. Let's really look at it for a second. Indy was a scientist, this is true. But he was also very physical, very active, and very much NOT the typical scientist. If I had to make a sheet for him, I'd have more than just levels in scientist. The point Gar was making by saying that, I think, is that the xenoarch is designed NOT to be a standard scientist. It's not even designed to be a GOOD scientist. It's designed to allow a normally sheltered and bookish character to go out into the field and survive. Heck, not only survive, but swing from a whip, kill nazis, dodge traps that take out normal scientists, and get away from the angry natives with the treasure at the end of the day. Hence the BAB, defense value, saves, etc.

As a sub point of the above and to your point that it's overkill re: scientists, and a scientist shouldn't be leading in combat. This is true. However, the xenoarch is more of a scout, and therefore more likely to be out in front, disarming those alien traps and reading the maps, and as such is likely to be the first to get shot at. Again, it won't make the character a skilled warrior, but it does add survivability and non-scientist progression to the scientist class, which I suspect was the point.

Third, on the point of "Superior Knowledge". +1 isn't a whole lot, I agree with you. That aside, there isn't anything in there that says you can't put points into this +1 AFTER you take it. This is only my take, but I think it's probably meant to work like this: "Max the xenoarch finishes his current mission. Over beers, he and his crew discuss their next project and it turns out he's never even HEARD of that planet, let alone have any idea what kind of traps they might put on their king's cryo-tomb complex. As it's between adventures, the group levels. He puts his superior knowledge into 'that weird planet's culture'." That's not too useful on its own. But what's to stop you from putting skill points in after that? Even the skill points from that level could go there. The +1 isn't great on its own, but it gives you a slight boost when taking on new knowledge skills. So, in the grand scheme of skills, no, not a big help. When you look at it in the sense that they are likely to be better at picking up wacky new knowledges than regular scientists, however, it works just fine.

Fourth, skill points. I agree that for a skill-based class, the scientist has a low skill point total. However, that is supplemented by two points, and a flavor justification. One is that the scientist will, without fail, have a high intelligence. What's the point otherwise? So while they get half the skill points, they will almost always get more than 4. Point two is that the xenoarch isn't a skill class like the scientist. The high scores in BAB, defense, etc, say that it's not designed to be a skill class. I have to assume that was on purpose. Which brings me to the flavor justification. If you move out of the labratory and into the field, you are bound to lose track of the latest publications and have less time to hone all your skills and knowledges. This is made up for with field experience and a new skill set which includes learning interesting new ways to avoid dying on alien planets.

So, in short, I think that if you look at it in another way, the xenoarch works very well for what it is trying to do. The problem, I suspect, lies not in the stars, but in yourself, in this case. It sounds to me like you were expecting one thing and got something else. You wanted a better scientist, but I don't think that's what the xenoarch class is designed to do. To me, it looks like it's designed to add some lifespan and versatility to a normally sheltered and back-line character class. And believe me, I share your pain. The 2e B5 game really lacks good PrCs, but we can hope that the upcoming books have more for us to choose from.

And I second your request for info: what PrC's are in IPX? XenoPsychologist sounds like the coolest class ever and now I really want to know.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

(Assuming it hasn't all been changed in playtest/editing) - there aren't any PrCs in the IPX book. Instead, I took a leaf out of the Quint II books. There are several Class Combinations in the book. The Xenopsychologist, for instance, is a Diplomat/Scientist. There are a few ability swaps for each class combination, where you replace a class ability with something more suitable for IPX campaigns.

For example, the Xenopsychologist gets:
Peacemaker: The xenopsychologist may take Diplomacy as a Peripheral Area of Study.

Alien Culture Familiarity: Instead of taking Alien Technology Familiarity, the xenopsychologist may take Alien Culture Familiarity with a particular culture. This gives a bonus of +2 to Sense Motive checks against the race.

Temporary Influence: The xenopsychologist is adept at gaining temporary contacts and prestige on a new world. Instead of the Strong Influence class feature, he may take the Temporary Influence feature. When the xenopsychologist makes peaceful contact with a new culture, he temporary gains 1d4+his Charisma bonus Social or Political Influence in the new culture. This temporary influence fades as the novelty of the character’s presence wears off. This generally happens within 1d4 weeks.

The other combinations are:
Thief (Agent/Lurker)
Explorer (Scientist/Officer)
Security Specialist (Agent/Soldier)
Tomb Raider (Agent/Scientist)

 

[Polaris]

(I just previewed my answer...woah. Sorry about the length. Hope it helps answer what you were asking...)
I just read over the class, and while I'm not the best at working out bonuses and the like, it seems like a decent class to me. On the subject of "what am I missing", I might be able to help. I'll try to hit your initial points one for one.

Gabriel, I read your post with interest and I can see a lot of where you are coming from. It was indeed the sort of (or at least one sort of) answer I was looking for, but I am not completely convinced. Permit me to go through your answer at length and explain why.

First off, B5 2e is kind of designed to be a multi-class game. Since you can only advance to level 10 in any given class, it's expected that high level characters will have more than one class under their belt. As a GM, I get rid of "favored class" and xp penalties for uneven class levels because of this. Given that, you can meet your xenoarch requirements with one level from some other class. If you're playing a pure scientist, yeah, it's hard to hit the prerequisites, but one level of some other class, while a pain, isn't a deal breaker, since that often happens with prestige classes.

Well first of all, I tend not to be impressed with "in my campaign I do X" answers unless that is specifically asked for because it's simply not possible to examine mechanical issues (which part of this is) in depth without excluding houserules. However, since I am human, this is a minor point....a certainly COULD take another base class if I wanted to without penalty which I currently do not.

That brings me to my second point, and in a backhanded way RA alluded to it for Telepaths. If you are going to limit character progression to ten levels, then it seems to me that either you are assumed to have multiclassed or you have invested in a prestigue class or classes which extends the scope of your original class! In part (and admittedly only in part), it was my impression that this was what Xeno-archaelogist was supposed to do!

Second, the "Indiana Jones in Space" idea is an important point. Let's really look at it for a second. Indy was a scientist, this is true. But he was also very physical, very active, and very much NOT the typical scientist. If I had to make a sheet for him, I'd have more than just levels in scientist. The point Gar was making by saying that, I think, is that the xenoarch is designed NOT to be a standard scientist. It's not even designed to be a GOOD scientist. It's designed to allow a normally sheltered and bookish character to go out into the field and survive. Heck, not only survive, but swing from a whip, kill nazis, dodge traps that take out normal scientists, and get away from the angry natives with the treasure at the end of the day. Hence the BAB, defense value, saves, etc.

The problem with this analysis is that Indiania Jones was in fact (according to the fiction) a GOOD scientist. In fact he was world leading. Also that interpretation doesn't seem to square with the B5 universe which is an important flavor point for me. It seems to me that the B5 Xenoarchaelogists are those like Catherine Sheridan or her mentor (found on Z'ha'Dum. That also seems backed up by the flavor text that implies that a Xenoarchaelogist has to be physically sturdier than a standard scientist (and luckier) but it says nothing about him being a better combatant!

That's why I am crying overkill. Each one of those changes makes sense, but taken altogether, it seems inappropriate (more of a soldier than a scientist).

As a sub point of the above and to your point that it's overkill re: scientists, and a scientist shouldn't be leading in combat. This is true. However, the xenoarch is more of a scout, and therefore more likely to be out in front, disarming those alien traps and reading the maps, and as such is likely to be the first to get shot at. Again, it won't make the character a skilled warrior, but it does add survivability and non-scientist progression to the scientist class, which I suspect was the point.

I disagree. Given what he does especially as a scout does not justify greater combat abilities...just greater survivability. Pretty much any scout (and certainly a Xenoarchaelogist) would try to avoid combat.

Third, on the point of "Superior Knowledge". +1 isn't a whole lot, I agree with you. That aside, there isn't anything in there that says you can't put points into this +1 AFTER you take it. This is only my take, but I think it's probably meant to work like this: "Max the xenoarch finishes his current mission. Over beers, he and his crew discuss their next project and it turns out he's never even HEARD of that planet, let alone have any idea what kind of traps they might put on their king's cryo-tomb complex. As it's between adventures, the group levels. He puts his superior knowledge into 'that weird planet's culture'." That's not too useful on its own. But what's to stop you from putting skill points in after that? Even the skill points from that level could go there. The +1 isn't great on its own, but it gives you a slight boost when taking on new knowledge skills. So, in the grand scheme of skills, no, not a big help. When you look at it in the sense that they are likely to be better at picking up wacky new knowledges than regular scientists, however, it works just fine.

With what skill points?

Fourth, skill points. I agree that for a skill-based class, the scientist has a low skill point total. However, that is supplemented by two points, and a flavor justification. One is that the scientist will, without fail, have a high intelligence. What's the point otherwise? So while they get half the skill points, they will almost always get more than 4. Point two is that the xenoarch isn't a skill class like the scientist. The high scores in BAB, defense, etc, say that it's not designed to be a skill class. I have to assume that was on purpose. Which brings me to the flavor justification. If you move out of the labratory and into the field, you are bound to lose track of the latest publications and have less time to hone all your skills and knowledges. This is made up for with field experience and a new skill set which includes learning interesting new ways to avoid dying on alien planets.

The problem is that a Xenoarchaelogist IS a scientist. He's a very special one with unique abilities to be sure, but he is expected to have lots of skills, and even with an Int Bonus, four skill points per level doesn't cut it. I agree mechanically that this is because of the combat boosts the PrC gets, but when you combine the fact that the combat boosts seem to be overskill, it doesn't seem unreasonble to scale some of those back and increase the skill points to 6 per level at the very least especially if lots of skill points are the only way to take any kind of advantage of what is supposed to be an important class feature!

So, in short, I think that if you look at it in another way, the xenoarch works very well for what it is trying to do. The problem, I suspect, lies not in the stars, but in yourself, in this case. It sounds to me like you were expecting one thing and got something else. You wanted a better scientist, but I don't think that's what the xenoarch class is designed to do. To me, it looks like it's designed to add some lifespan and versatility to a normally sheltered and back-line character class. And believe me, I share your pain. The 2e B5 game really lacks good PrCs, but we can hope that the upcoming books have more for us to choose from.

And I still disagree with you. It seems to me (just as an example) that you could cut the bab down to 1/2 and defense down to poor, and increase the base skill points to 6 without changing the nature of the PrC at all and perhaps (at least IMHO) actually improving it's fit within it's flavor text.

-Polaris

 

[Polaris]

Mongoose Gar,

Let me see if I understand this correctly. To your knowledge then, the IPX book has several multiclass "templates" that allow you to customize the class abilities of certain multiclass combinations?

Damn....why does IPX have to be delayed until April. I am interested in hearing more, frex how class skills are handled to name one.

-Polaris

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

I'll summarize my response to your response to save some space: xenoarch doesn't do all those things the way you want them because it doesn't. The class is there as written. I wasn't debating whether it was good or not, just trying to help you see, as you asked, if you missed anything. I'm not trying to debate whether it's a good class or not. You really do have my sympathy about the lack of prestige classes, but I'm not enough of a rules lawyer to debate the points of whether it's got the right numbers, and the fact is it doesn't matter. If you have a proposal for a better class, write it up. Submit it to your GM, see if he or she will agree with you and let you take it. Post it online, show us a better way. But I can't really debate the mechanical merits or lack thereof of the class, I haven't been playing d20 long enough, and I have no head for numbers. I wasn't really trying to get into an argument over the mechanical problems, or to try to "fix" the class, just offering a perspective on what you might have been overlooking.

The big problem, in my opinion, is simply the lack of prestige classes. It's not that xenoarch is a bad prestige class. It does a fine job of what it sets out to do, at least in my opinion (clearly not in your opinion, though, but that isn't the point I'm making right here). The problem is there isn't really any other science prestige class (other than the xenobiologist, and your character isn't a doctor), so the natural assumption is that the xenoarch is good for every scientist, in effect that it is the "scientist prestige class", and clearly that isn't the case. Even if you're looking for an alien tech expert/exploration expert, the xenoarch might not be the one for you, and there aren't any other options out there yet. There aren't enough prestige classes in 2e to give every character concept something to strive for, and while that's fine for the game, someone expecting a prestige class might find themselves disappointed.

Best advice is to write up a progression of your own, perhaps even a whole other class, and run it past your GM, and perhaps post it on here as well. Heck, submit it to Signs and Portents, it might even get published. We won't be able to fix the xenoarch class in the book, but I'm sure there are plenty of people around here who would appreciate well thought out PrCs to use in their own games, or even an alternate xenoarch progression if they agree with you that it's broken. I'd even go so far as to say that if you opened up the discussion, most people around here would be happy to brainstorm ideas with you. Give it a week or so and who knows, we might end up with a whole set of specialist scientist prestige classes.

P.S. Mongoose Gar's "best guesses" on IPX's contents are pretty good. He wrote it.

 

[Polaris]

Gabriel_Luna et. al,

Since you asked, and hopefully to spawn some more discussion, here is how I'd write up the Xenoarchaelogist or at least modify it, and this is the proposal I emailed to the GM (actually this will include multiple proposals). I haven't heard anything back from him yet, and I will certainly include his suggestions and any agreed upon PrC for community perusal.

These are modifications to the Xenoarchaelogist class found on pages 266-7 of the main book making him more of a scientist but emphsizing the FIELD research aspect.

Requirements: Keep these the same. It makes a certain backhanded sense to require Alien Empathy (and sense motive) to make out completely unknown alien tech by intuition, and all the other requirements certainly make sense.

Influences: Keep these the same; they make sense.

Hits: Keep this the same as well. As a field researcher, you need to be tougher than a normal scientist.

Skills: Keep the list the same (it makes sense); increase the skill points per level up to 6+Int. Honestly it should be 8+Int, but I can't justify that with everything else the Xeno-Arch gets, and 6+Int should work especially with some of the modifications below.

Base-Attack Bonus: Change this to low. The Xeno-arch isn't a soldier or agent and doesn't need any higher, the flavor text doesn't call for any higher, and thus shouldn't have any higher (especially with only pistol proficiency....the worst)

Base Defense Bonus: Change this to low as well (see above).

Saves: Keep these unaltered. As a Field Researcher, the Xenoarch needs to have better Fort and Reflex saves than the Scientist and losing the Scientist Will save is a reasonable trade here.

Dodge Trap: Keep unaltered. Makes sense and fits the flavor.

Alertness, Hardy x2, Instinctive Survival: Keep these unaltered. They fit the flavor and requirements of a Field Researcher that gets into sticky survival situations.

Expert Linguist: This fits the Xeno-Arch and IMHO should not be changed.

Use Alien Tech: While I don't have a huge quibble with this ability and would be perfectly content to see it unaltered, I have to note that this is a fixed attribute roll (wisdom) to avoid the -4 penalty, and I have to wonder if it's reasonable to say that this ability wouldn't improve regardless of skill or Xenoarch level. As a possible alternative, I'd recommend a sense motive check or galactic history knowledge check at a higher DC (at least 15 and perhaps 20) instead....and using this alternative, the GM could scale how easily a particular tech would be to use. For example, Shadow-Tech should be fairly hard to use while tech from a newly discovered younger race should be fairly easy.

Superior Knowledge: I recommend scrapping Superior Knowlege as written and replacing it with one of three things:

Option 1: At each "superior knowledge", the Xeno-arch gets bonus skill points that can only be applied to knowledge skills (perhaps two?)

Option 2: Give the Xeno-Arch a class bonus to knowledge skills or even certain knowledge skills (such as race/culture, and local area knowledge skills).

Option 3: Use "Superior Knowledge" in the same way the d20 Bard uses Bardic knowledge and base it off the Galactic History knowledge skill. This would represent the fact (as the base ability is supposed to do) that the Xenoarcheologist gets a lot of very obscure information from his work.

I want to hasten to add that I am still new to this particular RPG and perhaps my suggestions above aren't perfect (indeed they probably aren't), but I do have quite a bit of other OGL/d20 experience, and these proposed modifications seem to be both reasonable and seem to fit the Xenoarch a lot better than what's in the book, IMHO anyway.

-Polaris

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

Those all sound like reasonable solutions to your problem.

I had a thought on "Superior Knowledge" but it isn't quite right. Along the lines of giving you a bonus equal to your class level on either knowledge skills you have no ranks in, or just allowing you to use it on any knowledge skill (and therefore unknown knowledges will be at a reasonable level, but ones you're good at will quickly surpass the bonus from this). Either way it doesn't feel quite right, but that's what brainstorming is about.

If I had to choose from your three options for Superior Knowledge, I'd say the skill point one is the easiest and least likely to cause problems. Two or so knowledge-only skill points would be a simple and easy fix, and it'd also mitigate the low skill points the class gets.

On the "Use Alien Tech" point. I'm not sure if I agree on this or no. Completely alien tech might very well just be a gut reaction and intuition. If the interface is a squid that you stick on your head to turn on, I'm not sure how much past experience you can bring to bear on the situation. But the argument can be made both ways, and I see your point. I lean toward Sense Motive and not a history check, if we go your way, just because the xenoarch is focused on new frontiers and unknown tech, and things that aren't in the historical record.

Thoughts?

 

[B_Steele]

If the interface is a squid that you stick on your head to turn on

Somebody has been watching the Jackass season DVDs, or reading the Star Wars New Jedi Order.

I should know...I'm big fans of both.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate on Prestige Class power levels.

-Bry

 

[Polaris]

Those all sound like reasonable solutions to your problem.

Thanks for your input, and everyone else, please don't be shy! My feelings certainly aren't going to be hurt, and the more input/suggestions/off-the-wall comments I can get the better! After all, I guess I am asking for some brainstorming here, and the more minds the merrier.....

I'll go ahead and comment on the rest paragraph by paragraph.

I had a thought on "Superior Knowledge" but it isn't quite right. Along the lines of giving you a bonus equal to your class level on either knowledge skills you have no ranks in, or just allowing you to use it on any knowledge skill (and therefore unknown knowledges will be at a reasonable level, but ones you're good at will quickly surpass the bonus from this). Either way it doesn't feel quite right, but that's what brainstorming is about.

Yeah, I had an initial embryonic idea along this sort as well, but it didn't seem right to me for very much the same reasons it didn't seem right to you. It made the specialized knowledge skills perhaps too good.

If I had to choose from your three options for Superior Knowledge, I'd say the skill point one is the easiest and least likely to cause problems. Two or so knowledge-only skill points would be a simple and easy fix, and it'd also mitigate the low skill points the class gets.

Yeah, I tend to agree, but it also means that Superior Knowledge isn't very important overall and thus a fairly weak class feature. More problematic, the ability doesn't seem to fit especially well with the flavor-text expectation of the ability. The bardic knowledge option does fit the flavor-text expectation of the ability, but is probably too good for the PrC.

Not knocking your input, and in fact I would tend to agree that the skill point solution is the best or at least has the minimum impact of all my proposed fixes. It's simply not perfect (not like anything ever is of course). Again if anyone else has a better idea, I'm all ears!

On the "Use Alien Tech" point. I'm not sure if I agree on this or no. Completely alien tech might very well just be a gut reaction and intuition. If the interface is a squid that you stick on your head to turn on, I'm not sure how much past experience you can bring to bear on the situation. But the argument can be made both ways, and I see your point. I lean toward Sense Motive and not a history check, if we go your way, just because the xenoarch is focused on new frontiers and unknown tech, and things that aren't in the historical record.

Thoughts?

Well, as I indicated before, I am torn. On one hand, the ability probably is intuitive, but on the other hand it doesn't seem reasonable that once you have it (at 2nd level Xeno-arch), it doesn't get any better or worse.

Any other thoughts out there? As I said before, I don't mind the ability as written since it fits the class very well and is germane to both the power level of the class and flavor. It's more of a quibble....

-Polaris

 

[Gabriel_Luna]

If the interface is a squid that you stick on your head to turn on

Somebody has been watching the Jackass season DVDs, or reading the Star Wars New Jedi Order.

I should know...I'm big fans of both.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled debate on Prestige Class power levels.

-Bry

I can't stand Jackass, but I will admit to having read some of the NJO books. I realized the NJO comparison after I posted, but honestly my inspiration for that image was Lovecraft. Nothing says totally unknown alien horror like squid-based tech!

As for brainstorming, Polaris, I'm out of ideas for the moment. Duly noted and I'll think on it, but I encourage someone else to chime in here and brainstorm a little.

 

[thedarkelf007]

I like the bardic knowledge idea for superior knowledge, but I would do it this way for this version...

Xeno level + Wis mod is your base

Add +2 if you have enough ranks in Sense Motive, Knowledge: Culture in question or Linguistics.

I am unsure if I would add these three together...

Now for how to check.

This could follow the roll d20 and meet the difficulty, or we can borrow some of the ideas from Influence...

Make them roll 2d6 and allow other people to assist with an actual influence check, but limiting someone making this check to having the class feature. This has three good points, it allows cooperation, it limits the amount it can be used (as it counts as a influence use), and lastly if they call in influence to help, they can't hide what they are working on.

You can justify other people making influence checks to help by calling in favours to use resources not available to the character they are assisting.

What do you think?