Worlds orbiting gas giants and jump distances

[dayriff]

Besides: I don't design sectors, that's what I pay publishers for, same for ships etc. But IMHO the designs they sell me should follow the rules. Your Shermans per Jagdpanther may vary

Yes, but why should they "follow the rules"? What's the benefit? That's what I don't understand.

If I could analogize with another game, it seems to me that's like buying a Dungeons & Dragons module and getting upset that the dungeon was obviously not generated using the 'random dungeon generation' rules (which do exist in some editions). The random generation rules are there as a play aid, not because they inherently produce a setting that is more suited towards playing Traveller in.

I don't see why the publishers sitting down and thinking up an interesting set of worlds to use as a setting for a Traveller campaign is somehow inferior to rolling on a set of tables in a book.

 

[Blix]

I don't see why the publishers sitting down and thinking up an interesting set of worlds to use as a setting for a Traveller campaign is somehow inferior to rolling on a set of tables in a book.

Personally I think that publishers should at least ensure that what they publish can be created using the generation systems that they publish.

If a publisher publishes a spaceship design, I would expect to be able to create the exact same design using the unmodified rules that they have published for starship creation system. Similarly, if they published a sector, I would expect to be able to create the exact same sector using the rules they publish for sector generation.

Otherwise, that tells me that the publisher doesn't really have much faith in their own generation rules.

 

[DFW]

Personally I think that publishers should at least ensure that what they publish can be created using the generation systems that they publish.

Perhaps I haven't looked closely enough but, I don't recall seeing worlds that couldn't be created by the book. Also, what happens when a GM creates a sector and after a time, due to political evolution those worlds change so that they are different than what would occur during random generation. Like a power taking over and most worlds becoming "captive govt's"...

 

[Blix]

Perhaps I haven't looked closely enough but, I don't recall seeing worlds that couldn't be created by the book. Also, what happens when a GM creates a sector and after a time, due to political evolution those worlds change so that they are different than what would occur during random generation. Like a power taking over and most worlds becoming "captive govt's"...

I don't see why that would be a problem. I'm not saying that everything MUST adhere to the rules - if a well thought out (and explained) exception is appropriate then that would be perfectly fine. I just wouldn't want to see (for example) ships going faster than their drives would allow, or the exceptions being more common than the normal results.

 

[DFW]

I don't see why that would be a problem. I'm not saying that everything MUST adhere to the rules - if a well thought out (and explained) exception is appropriate then that would be perfectly fine. I just wouldn't want to see (for example) ships going faster than their drives would allow, or the exceptions being more common than the normal results.

I haven't seen that with MGT. I've seen enough internal inconsistencies within the rules to choke a horse. But, not much published that couldn't be done by following the rules, such as they are.

 

[Blix]

I'm not suggesting that this is an issue with Mongoose, I'm just talking generally here. I know it was an issue with Classic Traveller though.

 

[DFW]

I'm not suggesting that this is an issue with Mongoose, I'm just talking generally here. I know it was an issue with Classic Traveller though.

Yes, VERY true. LOL

 

[BP]

Random generation rules are just that - useful for adhoc creations...

Elements of adventures, campaigns, and settings should not commonly be randomly generated (there is also no need) - as the point is exactly the opposite - such things are intentionally created to match a plot or theme.

I particularly love the 'jump routes' that involve numerous stop-overs where fuel and berths are unavailable...

 

[rinku]

Personally I think that publishers should at least ensure that what they publish can be created using the generation systems that they publish.

Perhaps I haven't looked closely enough but, I don't recall seeing worlds that couldn't be created by the book.

There's quite a few in the Spinward Marches. Places like 871-438/Jewell which has the UWP E700000-0 (normally you can't roll a vacuum atmosphere on a size 6+ planet). Or Marastan/Glisten which is D868771-5 (normally you can't roll law lavel 1 on a government 7+ planet).

These are almost certainly typos - the MegaTraveller listing in Imperial Encyclopedia actually corrects them, making 871-438 722000-0 and Marastan D868772-5, but apparently when Martin Dougherty asked to update the UWPs for MGT Spinward Marches he was told that he had to use the UWPs as originally published in GDW Spinward Marches.

Having said all that, typos or not, these UWPs aren't logically impossible. There are all sorts of reasons why Marastan might have a low law level - given that it's balkanised, maybe everyone is paranoid and given to carrying automatic weapons. Likewise, 871-438 might be a planet whose atmosphere was stripped when its sun went nova, or might be particularly inert geologically with little outgassing and really really old. MT gives it as being in a binary with a red and a white dwarf, so both theories are plausible.

 

[locarno24]

Can't say for the MGT system but the MT/TNE system was not totally random. There where some setting switches like "stellar densitiy in the sector" in there.

There are in MGT as well - there's a choice between 'rift', 'sparse', 'normal' or 'dense', with the roll for a of star system drifting from 3+ to 6+.

Equally, there's the 'Space Opera' (few heavily populated worlds and lots of dead ones) and the 'Hard science' - starports very dependent on planet size.

Both of which make a lot of sense. The random generator is useful for creating a region of 30+ star systems without straining your brain too much, but you should then go back over it with an editor's eye and tweak it where it doesn't make sense.

The last region we had to assemble, we had a few thousand people living quite happily on a TL5 desert planet in a system without a gas giant. Not, you might think, the most logical place for the imperium to put the region's only Class A shipyard when there was a technocratic TL13 multi-billion-inhabited world a few jumps away.....

 

[rinku]

There's a distinction, though, from non-random and where the numbers used are outside the range allowed for by the random rules. I think this is Somebody's basic objection, which it is his right to hold. He is not claiming that everyone else should agree with him, just stating his position.

 

[BP]

Most certainly, and this is not an uncommon view - i.e., that rules should be followed.

Though, there is quite a distinction between random vs. intelligent creation rules. I.e., in the case of starship creation, the rules represent game balance design mechanisms. In the case of main world generation, this is not really the case. Rather, the rules exist to create a set of 'reasonable' stats (well, to the designers at least).

Of course, in the case of large numbers of systems, the rules fall short - I suspect they just can't be complex enough and remain usable for most folks. Additionally, such rules are unlikely to be within the capability of the author's primary skill base.

Unfortunately, the OTU is a historical (hysterical in some cases) creation that was largely generated by flawed computer programs with low integrity output (ASCII, generated, stored and transmitted without adequate error detection and correction protocols) and strictly following a set of rules that do not take into account nearby systems (other than 'density' for presence).

 

[BP]

Some of my earliest programs were sector generators, which took into account trade routes, allegiance and stats of adjacent systems before establishing UWPs... but that was a good many moons ago (no pun intended), and on old platforms.

For me, trade routes established minimal starport and refueling requirements, which along with Allegiance and physical stats established TLs (heavy grav and non-optimal atmo required min. TLs). Systems with high quality starports needed at least one nearby system with similiar (otherwise, why be there in the first place), and influenced the likelihood of nearby systems having higher quality ports.

The MGT (and original CT rules I am familiar with) are really only applicable to single system generation, not sub-sector and larger creations. As mentioned, the rules really don't account for anything other than system frequency...

Nor, do they accommodate every variation in system creation that may be applicable to a given plot.

 

[captainjack23]

So, if you want the trade rules to work as intended, you should either use

The "trade rules" as written don't reflect a market econ that is presented as the Imperium. As they don't actually work with the starship finance system as presented, they can safely be junked in a campaign and replaced with a logical system.

Without starting a fight, I'd suggest that applying the microeconomic nature of the trade rules to the macroeconomics of the imperium is what doesn't work. I agree that it cant possibly model trade on a large scale worth a damn -I'd argue (and I have, suprise ! :wink: ) that the trade in both MGT and CT are meant to simulate the spot market at any given port for a small tramp freighter.

I'll dig out the thread here where Aramis and I (and others) bashed out what we wanted when MGT was in playtest. While the fluff discussion I wanted wasn't used, it wasn't negated, either, and it's still quite applicable.

As to starship finance rules, I agree that simple use of the trade system doesn't mesh with running a trader....but then, I suspect, it's that way specifically to force the players to scramble and take longshots. "My character gets a 10 year old payment scheme with a ship, and successfully spends the next thirty years making an okay living trading bananas, motherboards and toilet paper, making my ship payments every month until I die or the lord returns; and oh yeah Bob and Todd can be on the crew" isn't much of an interesting campaign.

 

[captainjack23]

I'm not suggesting that this is an issue with Mongoose, I'm just talking generally here. I know it was an issue with Classic Traveller though.

It's pretty much the exact same system as LBB3 with a few extra bells and minor options. If it doesn't work in CT, it doesn;t work in MGT. If.

 

[captainjack23]

Otherwise, that tells me that the publisher doesn't really have much faith in their own generation rules.

Biiiiig leap of inference there. Could be that the publisher goes by the original intent of the generation rules, which is to use them when inspiration fails, and that it was never intended to be used as an unsupervised geration system (i.e. requiring no input).

I know the SWM can't be 100% generated by the worldgen then or now. At least 95% of it can be, though (excluding typos). The occasional inclusion of authorial creativity outside the random dungeon generation table isn't a minus to me in a product. The worldgen couldn't generate a ringworld, or any of a hundred classic SF puzzle worlds -nor could it, really. Otherwise, to paraphrase the initial quote, that tells me that the publisher doesn't really have any faith in their own authors ability.

 

[BP]

...applying the microeconomic nature of the trade rules to the macroeconomics of the imperium is what doesn't work. I agree that it cant possibly model trade on a large scale worth a damn -I'd argue (and I have, suprise ! :wink: ) that the trade in both MGT and CT are meant to simulate the spot market at any given port for a small tramp freighter.

Ah, nicely put. Fell into this hole back in CT days, and it was this realization that got me safely out. MGT trade system starts with the words 'Free traders...'. (Don't know about MGT Merchant Prince, yet.)

... and oh yeah Bob and Todd can be on the crew" isn't much of an interesting campaign.

Could depend on Bob and Todd... :lol:

 

[captainjack23]

...applying the microeconomic nature of the trade rules to the macroeconomics of the imperium is what doesn't work. I agree that it cant possibly model trade on a large scale worth a damn -I'd argue (and I have, suprise ! :wink: ) that the trade in both MGT and CT are meant to simulate the spot market at any given port for a small tramp freighter.

Ah, nicely put. Fell into this hole back in CT days, and it was this realization that got me safely out. MGT trade system starts with the words 'Free traders...'. (Don't know about MGT Merchant Prince, yet.)

... and oh yeah Bob and Todd can be on the crew" isn't much of an interesting campaign.

Could depend on Bob and Todd... :lol:

if only you knew........ :?

 

[rinku]

The last region we had to assemble, we had a few thousand people living quite happily on a TL5 desert planet in a system without a gas giant. Not, you might think, the most logical place for the imperium to put the region's only Class A shipyard when there was a technocratic TL13 multi-billion-inhabited world a few jumps away.....

Hmm? How did you manage TL5 with an A starport (+6), zero hydrographics (+1) and population 3(+1)? That should give a minumum tech of 9 under OT or MGT rules.

In any case, the 3I doesn't build starports - planets build starports.

 

[rust]

In any case, the 3I doesn't build starports - planets build starports.

According to GURPS Traveller Starports, the Imperium does indeed build
(and own) most of the starports, the planets just provide the real estate
and connect the starport's infrastructure with the planetary infrastructure
- everything else is designed, constructed and operated by the Imperial
Star Port Authority (SPA), using Imperial taxes to establish the starport
and starport revenues to run it.