World War III anyone?

[Rick]

There is always a point. You may not be able to understand it, but there is a point.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

There is always a point. You may not be able to understand it, but there is a point.

Sorry, I don't speak echo.

 

[sideranautae]

I don't disagree however, one must consider the opposing viewpoint. The USA had just deployed land based nuclear missiles next to the USSR (in Turkey). In the Soviet leader's view, putting theirs on Cuban soil was tit for tat with the USA being the aggressor in that game.

Do you think they actually believed that, or did they only say it to achieve some affect on the american body politic?

According to KGB docs they really believed that. They also really believed that we were positioning for a first strike by building and deploying nuke subs capable of delivering nuke ICBMs, without having to surface. (But the US Mil knew this from its Ivy Bells project...)

Funny how Ike was right in his warning he gave as he left office.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I don't disagree however, one must consider the opposing viewpoint. The USA had just deployed land based nuclear missiles next to the USSR (in Turkey). In the Soviet leader's view, putting theirs on Cuban soil was tit for tat with the USA being the aggressor in that game.

Do you think they actually believed that, or did they only say it to achieve some affect on the american body politic?

According to KGB docs they really believed that. They also really believed that we were positioning for a first strike by building and deploying nuke subs capable of delivering nuke ICBMs, without having to surface. (But the US Mil knew this from its Ivy Bells project...)

Funny how Ike was right in his warning he gave as he left office.

You don't know whether those KGB docs were honest or deliberate misinformation.

So why didn't they make that first strike? What stopped them? What would they strike? They couldn't strike US missile subs, they couldn't strike strategic bombers, maybe they could get some US silos before they launched, but a lot of our missiles would make it to targets in Russia, so is all that destruction to Russia worth the advantage gained by a first strike? How would Russia be in a position to conquer the World, such that it is afterwards? The cities would be the easiest targets to hit, many tens of millions of Russian citizens would be dead, and the Russians wouldn't be able to evacuate those cities ahead of time, lest they lose the advantage of surprise. How badly do the Russians want to rid the World of the United States, and how much destruction to themselves would they be willing to accept to get that accomplished? I get the sense that Russia is not like Al Qaeda, Russians don't want to die!

 

[Rick]

You may have misunderstood the whole cuban missile crisis. When I said that the USA played poker, but Russia played chess, it really was a statement on how each side used nuclear weapons as a tool to power-broker deals.
After the Bay of Pigs, the Russians viewed Kennedy as indecisive and weak-willed, an obvious mistake in hindsight - but they believed he would not offer strong enough resistance to missiles in Cuba. Their motivation was that, by putting nuclear weapons in Cuba, they could get the USA to the bargaining table and get something really worthwhile for their removal - like West Berlin.
It was never, ever about using them.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

You may have misunderstood the whole cuban missile crisis. When I said that the USA played poker, but Russia played chess, it really was a statement on how each side used nuclear weapons as a tool to power-broker deals.
After the Bay of Pigs, the Russians viewed Kennedy as indecisive and weak-willed, an obvious mistake in hindsight - but they believed he would not offer strong enough resistance to missiles in Cuba. Their motivation was that, by putting nuclear weapons in Cuba, they could get the USA to the bargaining table and get something really worthwhile for their removal - like West Berlin.
It was never, ever about using them.

Maybe we should have given them Turkey, then Turkey would not be giving us trouble over ISIS today!
The question I don't get, and which you never answered is why the Russians viewed the United States as the Enemy, if we actually were the enemy, we would have joined up with Nazi Germany when it invaded Russia. Instead we shipped weapons to Russia so they could defend themselves, and what did they do afterwards? They went back on their word to allow free elections in Eastern Europe, in countries that were conquered by Germany and never did anything to Russia! Russia even created a new country called East Germany just so they could have a puppet government under their control.

The United States never attacked Russia, all we did was get in the way of Russia's plans for expansion. So tell me, how could we have had peace with Russia by letting Russia expand and get bigger and bigger and bigger? if Russia continues to do that, and we don't stop them, then eventually they would be on our border. If Russia minded its own business, didn't try to expand or spread its Revolution around the globe, we really wouldn't have a problem with them and their social experiment, out problem was that Russia wanted to turn more and more of the World into their guinea pigs for their socialist experiment. If Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev were content to rule Russia and mind its own business, there would have been no Cuban Missile Crisis.

 

[Rick]

You're sort of asking all the wrong questions, lol!
First of all, Russia isn't the Soviet Union, that needs a clear separation at this point.
Secondly, you were never really 'the enemy' per se - you were the main rival. If you imagine that global supremacy was the goal, the USSR viewed the USA as it's rival for that goal and projected it's own aspirations onto you, assuming you wanted the same thing. During the cold war, it had to control its own people by some means to assure 100% loyalty and productivity - it did this by using fear, fear of being conquered by the USA and NATO, fear of nuclear annihilation by the USA. It created an outside source of fear so that its population wouldn't question what was happening at home. You could never have had peace with the USSR unless it had achieved its goal.
Russia is completely different - Russia started off quite reasonably thinking that, as the USA had won the race for Global Supremacy, Russia could stop competing and find its own part to play alongside other countries and genuinely work together. You'll notice that Russia was careful, when it did get back on its feet, to avoid intruding on areas in the USA or NATO's sphere of influence, like building up a presence in the Arctic, for example. Then South Ossetia broke away, Georgia invaded and Russia saw itself as being able to become a peace-keeping force, as it had done in Kosovo. Unfortunately, this time the USA treated it like the USSR, as an enemy, as an agressor, and things have really gone way downhill since then.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

You're sort of asking all the wrong questions, lol!
First of all, Russia isn't the Soviet Union, that needs a clear separation at this point.
Secondly, you were never really 'the enemy' per se - you were the main rival. If you imagine that global supremacy was the goal, the USSR viewed the USA as it's rival for that goal and projected it's own aspirations onto you, assuming you wanted the same thing. During the cold war, it had to control its own people by some means to assure 100% loyalty and productivity - it did this by using fear, fear of being conquered by the USA and NATO, fear of nuclear annihilation by the USA. It created an outside source of fear so that its population wouldn't question what was happening at home. You could never have had peace with the USSR unless it had achieved its goal.
Russia is completely different - Russia started off quite reasonably thinking that, as the USA had won the race for Global Supremacy, Russia could stop competing and find its own part to play alongside other countries and genuinely work together. You'll notice that Russia was careful, when it did get back on its feet, to avoid intruding on areas in the USA or NATO's sphere of influence, like building up a presence in the Arctic, for example. Then South Ossetia broke away, Georgia invaded and Russia saw itself as being able to become a peace-keeping force, as it had done in Kosovo. Unfortunately, this time the USA treated it like the USSR, as an enemy, as an agressor, and things have really gone way downhill since then.

The last group of people America actually conquered was the American Indians in the 19th century, The Germans were merely defeated and occupied by the US for a few years and then put back on their feet, a German government was established and elections were held. Germany got Democracy by being defeated by the US and its allies (except for the Soviet Union), I can think of a lot of worse things than being defeated and occupied by the United States and then set loose, a nuclear war is one of them. If the United States was such a terrible country, then why is the average German standard of living higher than that of the average Russians? I suspect Germany is a lot better off for having been defeated by the United States than it would have been had it won World War II. Do you suppose the Russians feel that their lives would have improved much if they conquered the World? They'd be still stuck with the same political and economic system that doesn't really work for them and they'd be dragging down the rest of the World to their level.

There are actually two groups of Russians we need to consider, there are those leading the government and there are the rank and file citizens of Russia. The rank and file usually does most of the dying for their leaders ambitions, the only people who actually benefit from expansion of the Russian Empire are those running it, the rank and file spill their guts on the battle field and if they survive, they get to look at a larger map of Russia back home, but their lives are basically the same, their standard of living doesn't improve, all they actually accomplished is forcing some more of the world to live like they do, that is their victory.

I want to correct you one one thing, the United States doesn't have a sphere of influence, it has never forced anyone to be its ally, unlike the Soviet Union, which had a whole bunch of fake "allies" under its control called the Warsaw Pact. The Soviets basically invaded and set up governments under their control so they'd look a little better in the eyes of the World, the Soviets were basically trying to present themselves as "anti-imperialists" as they went about building their empire.

Most East Europeans resented being forced to live as the Russians do, under Stalin's and his successor's diktat. The moment they got a chance to break away, when the soviet grip loosened, they did. The Soviet/Russians did not make a lot of friends in Eastern Europe when they did what they did. Now what does America's "sphere of influence" consist of? A bunch of nations that want to remain independent and free, countries like Poland for instance Poland and the USA make natural allies, because Poland wants to remain free of Russian control and influence, and the USA wants Poland to remain free of Russia's control or any other country for than matter to prevent Russia from getting bigger and being more of a threat. American foreign policy consists of helping smaller countries avoid being swallowed by larger countries, not necessarily for altruistic reasons but for a very selfish one, the United States doesn't want its rivals getting larger and becoming more of a threat.

The United States is already a superpower, it doesn't have to do anything and doesn't have to conquer anybody, it already has what it needs, and their is a steady flow of immigrants coming to its shores, and plenty of room for them all, only 5% of American land is developed, that is urban or suburban, the rest is farmland or wilderness, and the land area is comparable to China's except we don't have 1.3 billion people, and much of our land is more arable than China's. All the United States has to do is defend its position in the World, while countries like Russia believe they have to conquer somebody in order to be a great power. The United States tries to prevent those conquests by other powers trying to be "great" that way it can stand secure.

if Russia simply wants to expand and develop its economy, there is nothing we can do to prevent Russia from rising like Japan or Germany, but Russia is old fashioned, it sees "greatness" as how big a spot it occupies on the World Map, that is really unfortunate, so Russia feels it must conquer Ukraine and grab up as many former Soviet Republics and former Warsaw Pact countries as it can, all the while the average Russians life is not improving, its going the opposite way in fact, because Russia's aggression has made other countries less willing to trade with it.

I have nothing against Russians, if they mind their own business and don't seek to conquer others, especially my relatives in Poland. I've met some nice people from other former Soviet Republics such as Ukraine for example, some of the hard line Russian nationalists want the independent country of Ukraine to disappear. One thing I do agree with is its hard to do a World War III campaign or setting without getting into politics, World War II was political, it was the politics that determined the war after all.

 

[Rick]

You asked me why and I told you what the Russian viewpoint was. That is all. Whether it is a correct one or not is completely immaterial - that is what they believed.

As to the Ukraine, what are the facts? Everything I've seen on the internet appears to be someones opinion, facts are very scarce.

 

[Rick]

Poland is a special case - they will always be afraid of Russia - even if Russia stayed completely quiet and did nothing at all, and in turn, Russia will always be afraid of Germany and Poland - it's a historical legacy, I'm afraid, that has little to do with modern events. To a Pole, the bogey-man is a Cossack, to a Russian, it's a German or Polish knight.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

You asked me why and I told you what the Russian viewpoint was. That is all. Whether it is a correct one or not is completely immaterial - that is what they believed.

As to the Ukraine, what are the facts? Everything I've seen on the internet appears to be someones opinion, facts are very scarce.

The facts are quite clear, Ukraine was a peaceful nation minding its own business then if decided it wanted to join the EU and Russia didn't like that, and so war started, I doubt it was mere coincidence that suddenly the pro-Russian minority found living conditions in the Ukraine intolerable and they suddenly wanted independence at the same time that Putin wanted to insert his troops and prevent Ukraine from moving towards the West. You see Russia makes up its own facts, it makes up its own facts about the United States being the "evil imperialist". We have never sought to conquer Russia, not in the entire history of the United States, we bought Alaska from Russia after all, and Russia sold it to us, because it didn't want it falling into the hands of the British Empire at the time, Canada being part of that British Empire. The United States just seeks to protect its position in the World. We don't particularly care for World Empire, but we seek to prevent others from establishing one at our expense just the same. Our foreign policy consists of helping other nations stay independent of other countries empire building schemes, one of those other countries is Russia. Russia finds the United States often gets in the way of its plans to dominate and control its neighbors, if not outright conquer them.

Now Russia has a history of telling untruths and spreading propaganda, much like Pinocchio, Russia has a history of dishonest leaders, and their fabricating of stories that bear little relation to the truth. Now Russia is weaving a story about Nazis in Ukraine threatening to take over Europe, and only the Heroic Russians, while adding territory to their country can stop them! This is a lot like German excuses of protecting German minorities in Czechoslovakia. Putin and his cronies call Ukrainians Nazis while they themselves are doing the very same things Hitler did in 1938. How ironic. If Hitler could have gotten away with calling the Czechs "Nazis" I think he would.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Poland is a special case - they will always be afraid of Russia - even if Russia stayed completely quiet and did nothing at all, and in turn, Russia will always be afraid of Germany and Poland - it's a historical legacy, I'm afraid, that has little to do with modern events. To a Pole, the bogey-man is a Cossack, to a Russian, it's a German or Polish knight.

Poland has never made Russia completely disappear. The difference is, what Poland fears Russia might do, has happened before, with Russia's imagination it is all made up, a rationalization for them doing terrible things to Poland. As I recall Russia partitioned Poland with Prussia and Austria, Poland was carved up and made to cease to exist politically in the 18th century, and it stayed that way with a brief respite during the Napoleonic War, and Poland finally got back its independence after World War I, Poland stayed an independent country until 1939 when Russia/Soviet Union and Germany/The Third Reich invaded and re-partitioned Poland between the two, then Germany attacked Russia and Russia cried for help, then with the Western Allies help Russia defended itself, drove back the Germans and then decided to take some land from Poland, and then took some land from Germany and added it to Poland, Poland didn't ask for this, it also didn't ask to be invaded in 1939. Poland was then a puppet state in the Warsaw Pact until 1989. Does Poland have a problem with Russia? You bet! As far as Germany is concerned, the Poles hope the Germans would send in troops to help if Russia ever invaded. I think Germany has learned its lesson, and Russia has not!

 

[sideranautae]

You may have misunderstood the whole cuban missile crisis.

No. I know data about that crisis that will never see the light of day. Rick has demonstrated a very good understanding of that incident.

 

[sideranautae]

Russia is completely different - Russia started off quite reasonably thinking that, as the USA had won the race for Global Supremacy, Russia could stop competing and find its own part to play alongside other countries and genuinely work together. You'll notice that Russia was careful, when it did get back on its feet, to avoid intruding on areas in the USA or NATO's sphere of influence, like building up a presence in the Arctic, for example. Then South Ossetia broke away, Georgia invaded and Russia saw itself as being able to become a peace-keeping force, as it had done in Kosovo. Unfortunately, this time the USA treated it like the USSR, as an enemy, as an agressor, and things have really gone way downhill since then.

Well put. I cringe almost everyday at the stupidity? of US leaders.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Russia is completely different - Russia started off quite reasonably thinking that, as the USA had won the race for Global Supremacy, Russia could stop competing and find its own part to play alongside other countries and genuinely work together. You'll notice that Russia was careful, when it did get back on its feet, to avoid intruding on areas in the USA or NATO's sphere of influence, like building up a presence in the Arctic, for example. Then South Ossetia broke away, Georgia invaded and Russia saw itself as being able to become a peace-keeping force, as it had done in Kosovo. Unfortunately, this time the USA treated it like the USSR, as an enemy, as an agressor, and things have really gone way downhill since then.

Well put. I cringe almost everyday at the stupidity? of US leaders.

Do you mean the current one in the White House? He seems to have done every liberal thing asked of him, and look what happened. He has tried to be humble, has bowed to various Emperors and monarchs, and the American people after six years of him have decided that they for the most part don't like him. His approval rating is in the 30% range.

I don't know what you would prefer in a US President, but this one doesn't seem to be working. Is he likely to start World War III? I think not, he's more likely to surrender the United States, and we would end up under the thumb of the Russian Empire if not the Islamic State if he had his druthers, of course if he attempted such a thing out in the open, I am not sure what America's generals would do about him, so he pretends to follow America's interest, fight ISIS, but not so hard and not with the intent to win, just to make himself look good at home, so he doesn't appear as a complete wimp, he is hacking away at the US Defense Budget. I think the overall result of this is going to be a conservative Government in 2017 Presidency, Senate, and House of Representatives, if you think this is a bad thing, its only because Obama's liberal policy prescriptions have failed the American people and alienated most of them, all but the most hard core liberals, that is the reality in my country.

 

[sideranautae]

Do you mean the current one in the White House? He seems to have done every liberal thing...

You have no idea of who deals directly with Russia from the USA. And, in what form that interaction takes. NO idea.

I'll give you a hint that SHOULD open your eyes, if they could be opened. We have troops in POLAND conducting exercises in Eastern Europe on the borders of RUSSIA!!!!!!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Do you mean the current one in the White House? He seems to have done every liberal thing...

You have no idea of who deals directly with Russia from the USA. And, in what form that interaction takes. NO idea.

I'll give you a hint that SHOULD open your eyes, if they could be opened. We have troops in POLAND conducting exercises in Eastern Europe on the borders of RUSSIA!!!!!!

The best place to defend Poland and Europe is from outside the borders of Russia, that was true during the Cold War in West Germany, and its true today in Poland. What Poland would like is an actual NATO base, but what its getting is rapid reaction forces and prepositioned equipment so as not to upset Russia, and of course that entails exercises in Poland. Russia has got to learn it is not better than other European Nations, and that it doesn't have special rights to other countries. Russia has to learn that it is not living in the 19th century, and that the proper way to grow is economically, not by landgrabbing, that is dangerous and invites nuclear war in advanced areas like Europe. There are a lot of Europeans here, seems strange that America would care more about Russian lab grabs of Europe than many Europeans, many of those same Europeans aren't moving to Russia and trying to learn the Russian language after all. Russianism has fewer propaganda attractions and promises than Communism had. For instance under Communism, you were guaranteed a job, maybe not the job you would like, but you would get a job, the government would assign you one. Under Russianism, you get to learn to speak Russian and wear a fur hat!