Women of the Traveller Universe
- Thread starter kafka
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Greg Smith
Mongoose
Gee4orce said:The Chef said:
for the non gun toting warrior woman....
This is right on the money as far as I'm concerned, and reminds me very much of:
The first is the comic book art of the second.
And yes, I chose to include the pictures again in my post.
If Mongoose wants to pull in a larger variety of players, I'd suggest old school. I'd really only recommend the "pin-up" approach if you're shooting for a narrow niche of action-sci-fi fans, but Traveller encompasses a lot more than that.
On top of the already recommended Aliens, I'd also look to Battlestar for inspiration:
On top of the already recommended Aliens, I'd also look to Battlestar for inspiration:
DaisedLady
Mongoose
as a girlie who plays Traveller I have to admit the idea of a Kaylee or Kara esque character is MUCH more appealing and IMO true to real life than the stereo-typical lycra clad big boobed big haired lasses you generally find, if i'm playing a female character thats how I tend to envisage them anyways.....
and I think those types of charcters are infinitely sexier as well
N
and I think those types of charcters are infinitely sexier as well
N
EDG said:
I think you are seeing too much into it - I don't believe any of those pictures could be considered titilating, and I would also dispute the 'big chest' charge. . .
TravellerArt
Mongoose
Thanks for that rust, (but she is a priest/vicar so be respectful)rust said:Yep, and I also like the illustrations from Spica's Career Book 1, espe-Mongoose_Will said:
cially the woman from the Clergy career.
Just wait till you see the ones in the new Spica...er, oops, sorry, forgot, not allowed to talk about it yet. :wink:
kafka
Mongoose
broken serenity said:
Yes, indeed. However, what I find about the first one as much as I admire all the women at work in different professions and different outfits is that there is a certain blandness about them. Furthermore, they look like one’s stereotypical view of the California beach babe but dressed in different outfits. The second one for me speak volumes about Traveller as it gives a sleek new multicultural appearance lacking in Traveller.
But, I don’t buy necessarily the distinction between civilian and merc. As there are plenty of women that dress attractively and even flirtatiously in everyday professions why would future professions not be the same?
AndrewW said:
Too true…but that is where the conversation started and the COTI is much more grognardy than these forums. It is also the site where Traveller is actually been made new. Therefore, likely that new artists, editors and new writers will take note of developments. It is also just not cloud the discussion with what has already been said.
EDG said:I think I just won the thread, didn't I.
Sorry not for me. I like Ripley but the getup in Aliens did not work for me. Rather it was the other women that had more interesting outfits.
EDG said:More seriously, my point really is that women are still going to be dressed in normal clothes. I suspect they're only going be wearing ridiculous getups like in kafka's second picture if they want to look hot for a party at a club. On a ship they're going to wear normal clothes (see Kaylee, or River, or Zoe from Firefly), uniform (see Ripley and Lambert from Alien, or even Vasquez from Aliens), or something else that's actually functional and useful.
I don't think anyone can really escape linking "women in art in Traveller" with "women's role in Traveller" in this sort of discussion because the art is going to portray women doing things in the Traveller universe. And unless it's a particularly misogynistic setting, there's no reason why women shouldn't be doing everything they're doing today and more. You'll have female pilots, construction engineers, medics, entertainers, belters, spies, soldiers, accountants, explorers, pioneers, leaders, and everything else.
What they won't be doing is prancing around in one-piece skintight breast-expanding/elevating spandex outfits (unless perhaps they're going out for the aforementioned night on the town).
True, but I only agree with 5% of what you say…in that yes, the future is going to the same as the present in regard to the routine of things (especially, in Traveller where there are soo many low tech worlds). But, we should not fall into the trap that everyone is going to look like they do in the 21st century. For just as Traveller art demands that we create alien landscapes…that is not merely the addition of a second sun in the sky…
Similarly, for women’s outfits, as I stated above fashions change and modify with time. When I look at the first picture…indeed it is so Life on Mars…in that it reveals the blandness of the 1970s not even the excitement of fashion of the 1980s or even later or earlier. Therefore, the art and women portrayed within should not be stuck in a particular mindset.
What they won't be doing is prancing around in one-piece skintight breast-expanding/elevating spandex outfits (unless perhaps they're going out for the aforementioned night on the town).
And, why not? For most women, it is important to be comfortable and look good. If future materials can accommodate that…they will. And, as was said…I hardly see the outfits on display doing just that.
DaisedLady said:as a girlie who plays Traveller I have to admit the idea of a Kaylee or Kara esque character is MUCH more appealing and IMO true to real life than the stereo-typical lycra clad big boobed big haired lasses you generally find, if i'm playing a female character thats how I tend to envisage them anyways.....
and I think those types of charcters are infinitely sexier as well
N
Finally, an interesting comment. You see, my wife was looking at the gaming materials from someone who does not play often. Therefore, her sense of the fashion or the future is not portrayed accurately there. Yes, I think we should avoid the pulpy excesses but at the same time render things in a modern realistic way. Sexiness is also a mindset. For if any of the characters were attractive it would be Zoe from Firefly and Boomer from NBSG. That is why SFRPGs are infinitely more sexy than FRPGs because they do not fall into stereotypes but also move forward.
EDG said:
Considering the context, no, I don't think there is anything wrong with it. The breasts are hidden, they are not huge, there is no attention being drawn to them.
Put another way, I would be _amazed_ if anyone was actually titilated by that picture.
kafka said:What they won't be doing is prancing around in one-piece skintight breast-expanding/elevating spandex outfits (unless perhaps they're going out for the aforementioned night on the town).
And, why not? For most women, it is important to be comfortable and look good.
In some lines of work, maybe. A manager or politician would probably prefer to walk around in a sharp power suit (not the mechanical kind
) or something, but a mechanic who rootles around in engines isn't exactly going to be worried about getting oil on her coveralls or smudging her makeup.Mongoose_Will
Mongoose
I think your a little mistaken. The lady IS an exotic dancer (entertainer/performer) although she is not naked, shes wearing a dress.
I personally thought this was one of the best images but i certainly wouldnt say it was titilating.
In all honesty the Noble female strikes me as maybe borderline way more so than the entertainer.
Although perception is a factor.
I personally thought this was one of the best images but i certainly wouldnt say it was titilating.
In all honesty the Noble female strikes me as maybe borderline way more so than the entertainer.
Although perception is a factor.
In my opinion there should be room enough for Seven of Nine as well
as Ripley, although I think that in a plausible science fiction setting the-
re will be a lot more Ripleys than Sevens of Nine.
For my own setting, I came up with a "traditional everyday dress code"
for women that includes both coveralls or jumpsuits (e.g. for technicians)
and something more like the Indian Salwar Kameez dress (e.g. for admi-
nistrators), because all these have the advantage that it is comparatively
easy to get into an environment suit quickly if necessary (which is often
the case in this setting).
as Ripley, although I think that in a plausible science fiction setting the-
re will be a lot more Ripleys than Sevens of Nine.
For my own setting, I came up with a "traditional everyday dress code"
for women that includes both coveralls or jumpsuits (e.g. for technicians)
and something more like the Indian Salwar Kameez dress (e.g. for admi-
nistrators), because all these have the advantage that it is comparatively
easy to get into an environment suit quickly if necessary (which is often
the case in this setting).
Real women dress in a lot of different ways. Like men, most dress to be comfortable. Some do dress "sexy" regardless of other considerations, like their weight, job, etc; some never do. Beleive it or not, there are some women who only feel comfortable when they are dressed "sexy", even it it's just tight jeans and mid-riff baring tank top. It doesn't have to be just because they are going out on the town, or to the beach.
IMO, the best resource for artists drawing women for the Traveller books is to spend a lot of time watching crowds in various places - particularly mass transit facilities where you have a large cross-section of people commuting to various jobs.
In my experience, people (men & women) who have frequent contact with the public and/or customers - IE, retail, counter sales, salesmen, reception, etc and need to impress them for business reasons will tend to dress either in uniforms, or to impress. People in jobs that typically don't have contact with more than each other will tend to be more comfortable and casual (though large offices full of white collar workers often defy this - there they are dressing to impress the bosses).
And like modern America, these things are going to vary widely from region to region, and even job to job within the same career. One free trader may have a crew dressed comfortably and kind of rag-tag looking, while another free trader might require crew uniforms at all times.
A good way to help indicate a woman's prefession and/or current state of mind is her hair. In professions where her hair could get in the way, it will tend to be short, or pulled back in some fashion. So I imagine many women in professions that are likely to go zero-g will have short hair, or always wear their hair back.
Another thing to consider when drawing women of the future is how technology may affect clothing styles. More than once, my wife has wished for an anti-gravity bra so that her bra straps wouldn't cut into her shoulders. Potentially technology could provide more comfortable support for well endowed women, and lead to "gravity-defying" clothing. It has other potential uses, too - how about anti-grav hair clips to create wild hairstyles?
All in all, Traveller should have a wide cross-section of woman in it's illustrations - not just pinups, but it doesn't need to completely avoid them, either - particularly if such an illustration can provide an insite to possible culture or tech of the future.
IMO, the best resource for artists drawing women for the Traveller books is to spend a lot of time watching crowds in various places - particularly mass transit facilities where you have a large cross-section of people commuting to various jobs.
In my experience, people (men & women) who have frequent contact with the public and/or customers - IE, retail, counter sales, salesmen, reception, etc and need to impress them for business reasons will tend to dress either in uniforms, or to impress. People in jobs that typically don't have contact with more than each other will tend to be more comfortable and casual (though large offices full of white collar workers often defy this - there they are dressing to impress the bosses).
And like modern America, these things are going to vary widely from region to region, and even job to job within the same career. One free trader may have a crew dressed comfortably and kind of rag-tag looking, while another free trader might require crew uniforms at all times.
A good way to help indicate a woman's prefession and/or current state of mind is her hair. In professions where her hair could get in the way, it will tend to be short, or pulled back in some fashion. So I imagine many women in professions that are likely to go zero-g will have short hair, or always wear their hair back.
Another thing to consider when drawing women of the future is how technology may affect clothing styles. More than once, my wife has wished for an anti-gravity bra so that her bra straps wouldn't cut into her shoulders. Potentially technology could provide more comfortable support for well endowed women, and lead to "gravity-defying" clothing. It has other potential uses, too - how about anti-grav hair clips to create wild hairstyles?
All in all, Traveller should have a wide cross-section of woman in it's illustrations - not just pinups, but it doesn't need to completely avoid them, either - particularly if such an illustration can provide an insite to possible culture or tech of the future.
Don't be so sure. I've worked with a competant female mechanic who took extra pains to stay clean so as soon as she was off the job for the day, she could look good. This was while I was in the Navy, and she was the chief mechanic for one of the tug boats my division was in charge of.EDG said:
No, she didn't worry about getting stains on her work coveralls, but at work she always had her hair up, and in a cap where it wouldn't get dirty. She always wore coveralls over her uniform, and she frequently wore disposable latex gloves to keep her hands clean - I think she went through a box a month. She was careful not to touch her face with dirty gloves/hands, and she often wore a face shield to prevent things from splattering on to her face.
Five minutes after work, she could be in civilian clothes, and you'd never guess she was a mechanic.
Klaus Kipling
Mongoose
Comfortable and practical, but that doesn't necessarily mean baggy and shapeless.
Higher tech compression style vac suits like the space activity suit would look like a wetsuit. The TL14 'tailored' vac suit, designed to look like regular clothes, could also be quite form fitting, but perhaps with accessories.
The sf stalwart, the shipsuit, is useful to invoke. Kinda cosy pajamas (and lots of styles that could come in) for that long week in jump, especially for passengers (don't folk on cruises often wear track suits?).
Some of the better sf tv ladies outfits, apart from the ones already mentioned, is Becca Valentine or Aeryn Sun. Both outfits quite sexy, but also convincing for the characters.
On the flip side, Wilma Deering was my first crush so there'll always be a place for those outfits they have to be sewn into.
There's always a place for the Servalen's too...
As long as we can avoid the high collars that so infest sci fi telly (unless entirely appropriate).
One thing that's lacking: tubby folk. The svelte and heroic can be overdone.
Higher tech compression style vac suits like the space activity suit would look like a wetsuit. The TL14 'tailored' vac suit, designed to look like regular clothes, could also be quite form fitting, but perhaps with accessories.
The sf stalwart, the shipsuit, is useful to invoke. Kinda cosy pajamas (and lots of styles that could come in) for that long week in jump, especially for passengers (don't folk on cruises often wear track suits?).
Some of the better sf tv ladies outfits, apart from the ones already mentioned, is Becca Valentine or Aeryn Sun. Both outfits quite sexy, but also convincing for the characters.
On the flip side, Wilma Deering was my first crush so there'll always be a place for those outfits they have to be sewn into.
There's always a place for the Servalen's too...
As long as we can avoid the high collars that so infest sci fi telly (unless entirely appropriate).
One thing that's lacking: tubby folk. The svelte and heroic can be overdone.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
Klaus Kipling said:One thing that's lacking: tubby folk. The svelte and heroic can be overdone.
See my earlier comment on Beltstrike...
Hi,
I hope this doesn't come across as me being old fashioned or set in my ways, but refering back to the initial post, of the two images provided, I have no real problem with the 1st image, but I don't really like the 2nd one for a number of reasons. While the first one may be a little bit dated, but I don't feel by all that much, and it seems to be an attempt to portray the wide range of roles that a female character can lead in a Traveller setting, etc.
On the other hand, the second image seems to kind of focus in on the old stereotype of not only being a "gun-toting babe", but a "gun-toting babe" in a tight fitting outfit, which seems to be a more dated concept than anything in the 1st image.
I don't want to imply that this sexist or anything, but images of woman in sci-fi wearing overly tight clothing somehow makes me feel as uncomfortable as seeing adds in old engineering magazines and calendars of bikini clad women sitting astride large valves or machine parts, etc. who had no real purpose in the add other than to attract attention.
In some ways it also reminds me of when I first watched the anime "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex", which has a kind of futuristic sci-fi setting, where all the characters were dressed normally except the female lead who for no apparent reason ran around in a leather jacket, a bustier, bikini bottoms, and thigh-high stockings. In some ways it makes it hard to decide if the artists of these stories/images/shows, etc are trying to be serious and portray realistic characters or if they are just creating eye-candy.
Another issue with the second image is that it appears to be a melding of a real actress's head (I think Lexa Doig) added to a computer generated body, which also doesn't sit well with me. To me this is somewhat along the lines of cutting and pasting dead celebrities into commercials and other such nonsense. There's no real need for it, if you could computer generate the body I suspect you could also computer generate a realistic head, and I doubt the original acter/actress approved the use of their image, so why do it.
Beyond that, as others have noted, the proportions also look a little off.
That said, I do very much like the image posted by "The Chef" which I think is a very nice example of a more modern artwork portraying women in a sci-fi setting, and definitely along the lines of the kind of artwork I would be happy to see more of.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Regards
PF
I hope this doesn't come across as me being old fashioned or set in my ways, but refering back to the initial post, of the two images provided, I have no real problem with the 1st image, but I don't really like the 2nd one for a number of reasons. While the first one may be a little bit dated, but I don't feel by all that much, and it seems to be an attempt to portray the wide range of roles that a female character can lead in a Traveller setting, etc.
On the other hand, the second image seems to kind of focus in on the old stereotype of not only being a "gun-toting babe", but a "gun-toting babe" in a tight fitting outfit, which seems to be a more dated concept than anything in the 1st image.
I don't want to imply that this sexist or anything, but images of woman in sci-fi wearing overly tight clothing somehow makes me feel as uncomfortable as seeing adds in old engineering magazines and calendars of bikini clad women sitting astride large valves or machine parts, etc. who had no real purpose in the add other than to attract attention.
In some ways it also reminds me of when I first watched the anime "Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex", which has a kind of futuristic sci-fi setting, where all the characters were dressed normally except the female lead who for no apparent reason ran around in a leather jacket, a bustier, bikini bottoms, and thigh-high stockings. In some ways it makes it hard to decide if the artists of these stories/images/shows, etc are trying to be serious and portray realistic characters or if they are just creating eye-candy.
Another issue with the second image is that it appears to be a melding of a real actress's head (I think Lexa Doig) added to a computer generated body, which also doesn't sit well with me. To me this is somewhat along the lines of cutting and pasting dead celebrities into commercials and other such nonsense. There's no real need for it, if you could computer generate the body I suspect you could also computer generate a realistic head, and I doubt the original acter/actress approved the use of their image, so why do it.
Beyond that, as others have noted, the proportions also look a little off.
That said, I do very much like the image posted by "The Chef" which I think is a very nice example of a more modern artwork portraying women in a sci-fi setting, and definitely along the lines of the kind of artwork I would be happy to see more of.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Regards
PF
You know, I think I figured out what's been bugging me about this thread.
It's like saying:
(OK, Villa was the most average, plain, normal guy I could think of in SF ).
But people don't ask this sort of thing, because how men are portrayed is never really an issue. So why should the portrayal of women be an issue too? Why do we actually need to ask the question? After all, we don't see guys in SF art being portrayed as handsome, square-jawed hunks with ripped-open shirts, so why should women be portrayed as gorgeous, voluptuous babes in skintight/skimpy outfits? We don't really make much of an effort thinking about how the guys are portrayed so why make the effort about women? Just do the same as you do with the guys - make 'em look natural, and like they're doing their job.
If Traveller's supposed to be more about the "everyday joe" then just draw everyone as ordinary, everyday joes. Sure, the nobility will tend to be more stylish (because they can afford to be), as will the entertainers - just as they are today. But everyone else is just going to be wearing whatever they need to do the job they need to do, be it a uniform, or a comfy outfit or a power suit. Some may take pride in their appearance still, others may not care so much. And they're going to come in a wide range of physiques too - tall, short, thin, fat, athletic, whatever. Some physiques will naturally be ruled out by the profession (you're not likely to get fat military types after all) but there's still going to be a range of possibilities.
I guess really I'm just saying that it's best to not sweat it too much. If an artist is just guided by common sense and normality then he'll probably turn out something fine and appropriate- if he isn't, then it'll be cheesecake and he'll be rightfully derided for it.
It's like saying:
Men in the Traveller Universe:
Which direction do you think Traveller artists should take their art for men?
Old School
Revised School
(OK, Villa was the most average, plain, normal guy I could think of in SF
).But people don't ask this sort of thing, because how men are portrayed is never really an issue. So why should the portrayal of women be an issue too? Why do we actually need to ask the question? After all, we don't see guys in SF art being portrayed as handsome, square-jawed hunks with ripped-open shirts, so why should women be portrayed as gorgeous, voluptuous babes in skintight/skimpy outfits? We don't really make much of an effort thinking about how the guys are portrayed so why make the effort about women? Just do the same as you do with the guys - make 'em look natural, and like they're doing their job.
If Traveller's supposed to be more about the "everyday joe" then just draw everyone as ordinary, everyday joes. Sure, the nobility will tend to be more stylish (because they can afford to be), as will the entertainers - just as they are today. But everyone else is just going to be wearing whatever they need to do the job they need to do, be it a uniform, or a comfy outfit or a power suit. Some may take pride in their appearance still, others may not care so much. And they're going to come in a wide range of physiques too - tall, short, thin, fat, athletic, whatever. Some physiques will naturally be ruled out by the profession (you're not likely to get fat military types after all) but there's still going to be a range of possibilities.
I guess really I'm just saying that it's best to not sweat it too much. If an artist is just guided by common sense and normality then he'll probably turn out something fine and appropriate- if he isn't, then it'll be cheesecake and he'll be rightfully derided for it.
Jeff Hopper
Mongoose
Until a world's Law Level stat covers the Fashion Police, I'm not going to worry myself over it too much.
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