Why use pornography?

[Anonymous]

I'll admit the nudity threw me for a loop at first, mainly because I caught the PDF while I was at work on my lunch break (as I am now). the reason it threw me for a loop was because i was afraid someone would see my screen and think something erroneous of me, but most of the information as easily gleaned from a quick read through on the bottom.

personnally, i'm even more excited about the whole conan rpg since 1) mongoose is doing it, and 2) with art like this, i'm betting the rest of the material captures the soul of the Hyborian age.

thought i'd send in my two cents.

 

[Ravager_of_Worlds]

oops, forgot to log in- that "guest" above me is me

 

[toothill man]

thats fine RoW welcome too the fun house :twisted:

 

[Atlantean DM]

I can understand where the original poster is coming from. Pornography is different to different people. If he thinks that the book has pornography in it, then it has pornography in it (to him). Don't try to convince him that it isn't. Some people can't handle Classic Fantasy art.

8)

 

[Outlaw]

I can understand where the original poster is coming from. Pornography is different to different people. If he thinks that the book has pornography in it, then it has pornography in it (to him). Don't try to convince him that it isn't. Some people can't handle Classic Fantasy art.

Very good point. I'm a bit torn on the issue myself (not that I think it's pornography, but I wonder whether or not the use of nudity was the best idea). I like its use because it tells me that the publishers have put significant amounts of time trying to capture the feel of Howard's Conan. At the same time, though, if I had to market this kind of product on a larger scale, I would have a hard time convincing parents to let their children play it. And although it may be meant for a more adult audience, I think there are skillful ways to provide adult material in a way that can either be filtered by the DM for younger audiences (a lot of the people I game with have young children who they are dutifully turning into gamers) or presented in such a fashion that children wouldn't understand the subject matter.

Having a naked woman on every other page makes this a difficult task. I was just reading Queen of the Black Coast out of the new Coming of Conan the Cimmerian book, which is illustrated. When Belit throws her clothes to the ground and seduces Conan, the scene is illustrated. And although she's naked, she's shown from behind, classy yet true to the story. I think that might have been the way to go (at least in hindsight, if they had never done this, most people would probably have criticized MP for being too PC).

Aaahhh, well. It's too late now. We'll just have to work with what we've got.

 

[LoneStranger]

That actually is a good point Outlaw, sometimes you have the problem that you can't clean something up enough for all ages to enjoy. Sometimes there has to be an adult theme to certain properties in order to fully realize the setting.

Unfortunately there are people out there who will have to realize and accept the fact that not everything can be cleaned up to the point that it can be called family friendly.

Ah well I just feel out of place since I just don't care about as much stuff as some people. I don't get all bent out of shape over the smallest thing I find offensive. Oh well.

 

[CJF]

And although it may be meant for a more adult audience, I think there are skillful ways to provide adult material in a way that can either be filtered by the DM for younger audiences (a lot of the people I game with have young children who they are dutifully turning into gamers) or presented in such a fashion that children wouldn't understand the subject matter.

"Okay Timmy, your broadsword rips through your opponent's belly, spilling his entrails onto the ground. He falls screaming at your feet, begging you to end the agony. The stench of blood fills your nostrils."

"Daddy, why is there a naked lady on every second page of the book?"

"Don't look, son!! It'll warp your mind!"

 

[MrFilthyIke]

"Don't look, son!! It'll warp your mind!"

Ah, now I've had my hearty laugh for the day...thanks!

 

[LoneStranger]

Yeah that one if pretty funny.

 

[skalvar]

While I'm avoiding thinking about something that belongs in a book that was due today...


Outlaw, you raise the idea that these books are being sold to "children". Just out of curiosity, what do you think the average age of a gamer is, and why? More importantly, do you think that something like Conan can/should be aimed at a young market?

Shannon

 

[Outlaw]

While I'm avoiding thinking about something that belongs in a book that was due today...

I hardly believe its release date was going to be today. It would be assinine of a publisher to try to publish a book at the beginning of January. Printers, along with the industry give a lot of holiday vacation this time of year and generally get slammed by publishing companies trying to squeeze in their products before the end of the year.

If Mongoose had wanted to release at the beginning of January, the book would have had to finish at the printers a couple weeks ago.

Outlaw, you raise the idea that these books are being sold to "children". Just out of curiosity, what do you think the average age of a gamer is, and why? More importantly, do you think that something like Conan can/should be aimed at a young market?

I think the average age of a gamer buying product is in the later 30s. But D&D's new edition has revitalized the market (even though it's glutted and slowing) so that new parents who weren't paying attention during the "it's satan's tool" accusations of the early eighties (or were the children whose parents took the game away) are being more open to new things and giving their kids a chance to play D&D.

Whether or not it should be marketed to kids? Not marketed to them, but it shouldn't be kept from them either. Arnold Schwarzenegger is still a high profile actor and thus Conan the Barbarian (the movie) is still regularly seen by fantasy enthusiasts, including the newest generation. Considering Howard's importance to the fantasy genre rivaling Tolkien (who is also big right now) a Conan RPG would be a good brand name to offer to most ages. One of my closest friends has a "family game" where he, his wife, daughter and son all game together. His six year old son plays a dwarf fighter and is young enough to understand that he has a big axe and he gets excited when he kills an orc all by himself. That type of game can have the graphic rating increased or decreased by the DM. Likewise, naked women aren't the focus of Conan, just the trimmings. As a Howard enthusiast, I would include them in my game, but I don't have children. My friend wouldn't.

But in this case, he doesn't even have the option as they appear on every other page. So now, rather than his son playing an Aesir barbarian and getting excited when he kills the Stygian wizard all by himself, he won't even have the chance to play the game.

 

[redlaco]

So his 6 years old son gets excited to rip an orc apart with his dwarf's axe and that's OK ?
On the other end, he would be traumatised to see some blurry tits ? In about 3 to 5 years, he and his buddies will find ways to sneak a peek to real ones anyway, so why put our heads in the sand about this ?

I'd prefer my children to see naked people so that I could begin their sexual education if they ask questions about it, rather than see them excited by a grisly murder, however virtual and self-defense as it may be. This being said, I don't mind the later so much, it's just that sexuality will be a reality for them very soon while violence, hopefully, not that much.

 

[skalvar]

Outlaw;

I think you miss understand. Although I do not have a Mongoose name, I happen to write books full time for Mongoose . I am not allowed (either by contract or professional ethics) to mention books by title until they are announced. Most of my posts occur when I want to avoid thinking about a particularly tangled problem.

RE: Children
An interesting thought. Do you think that there might be other markets that the decision opens up?


Shannon

 

[Mayhem]

If we are going to be true to the spirit of REH, I think we need to see pictures of naked women whipping other naked women.

This, IIRC, occured in at least 3 different REH conan tales.

I would think that the Conan RPG is being market towards Conan fans. The average Conan fan ought, by now, to know what to expect :roll:

 

[CJF]

But in this case, he doesn't even have the option as they [breasts] appear on every other page. So now, rather than his son playing an Aesir barbarian and getting excited when he kills the Stygian wizard all by himself, he won't even have the chance to play the game.

Yes, because teaching the joys of bloodlust and inflicting pain on others is far more important than basic sex education.

Personally I think violence, no matter how much you sugarcoat it, is far more damaging for young children than showing them common parts of the human anatomy, which is why I don't think young children should play games like Conan at all.

 

[Outlaw]

Yes, because teaching the joys of bloodlust and inflicting pain on others is far more important than basic sex education.

Obviously teaching basic sex education is more important than teaching bloodlust. ...how a naked woman in an RPG constitutes sex education is something you lost me on.

So his 6 years old son gets excited to rip an orc apart with his dwarf's axe and that's OK ?

I'm not the one who makes that decision. The parents do. They teach their children how they want to teach them. And I personally don't have an issue with the nudity (this seems to have been forgotten), but the choice has been made for everyone with something that I consider to be superfluous.

Arguments over sexuality and violence could be and have been made for long times to come with no results other than the frustration of the participants.

See my following comment for a clarification of what I was attempting to get across.

 

[Outlaw]

Outlaw;

I think you miss understand. Although I do not have a Mongoose name, I happen to write books full time for Mongoose . I am not allowed (either by contract or professional ethics) to mention books by title until they are announced. Most of my posts occur when I want to avoid thinking about a particularly tangled problem.

RE: Children
An interesting thought. Do you think that there might be other markets that the decision opens up?

Sorry Shannon, did not know that. Let me rephrase: I first came to these forums wanting to know if there would be a Living Conan. I'm heavily involved in both participating and managing other campaigns and a Conan setting is something I've been waiting for for a very long time (and is one of the main reasons I first picked up Slaine).

Although Mongoose may produce a product they don't want to market to children, I don't view it from the perspective of Mongoose (as I'm not an employee) but as a campaign promoter (something Matt said MP was hoping to start). From that perspective, the RPGA has ethics guidelines and children are regularly brought to events. And although it would be quite simple to label the campaign as adult content, it's something I wouldn't care to do. Conan is the basis for all the Sword and Sorcery to follow and would have appealed to me in an extreme way when I was young. Just like young boys like to play "guns" (at least in America), using a sword would have been equally enticing. I loved RPing when I was a kid. However, if I had showed up with a book that had a naked woman on every other page, it would have been taken away from me in half a second. Whether it's right or wrong for parents to act this way, it does happen, so hopefully we can just accept that.

As for whether or not it should be marketed to children. I think it could have been marketed to children, but whether or not that would been effective I'm unsure of (I don't have children and I've never understood the whole Pokemon/Yugioh phenomenon so I doubt I'd do a good job marketing to children). But I would like an environment that would allow for people like me to allow children to play if their parents approve.

Has it opened up other markets? I wouldn't say opened markets (it's certainly not the book of Erotic Fantasy), but it's probably set at ease Howard purists (which I count myself among) that Mongoose is willing to go the extra step to capture the Howard feel. I feel more confident with the product than I ever have before. So I'm going to buy the product.

I don't know how I'm going to convince my friends to play it, though, as we already have a number of games/systems (D&D, Savage Worlds, HackMaster etc) that we play regularly and can include their children with if need be (although not regularly). Likewise, starting a Living Conan has become more complicated. The RPGA is reducing the number of campaigns they offer and is limited the amount of new campaigns that are accpeted (AEG was rejected when they requested a Living Stargate). With corporate concerns of old stereotypes resurfacing, the restricting of third party ethical content (as a result of the Book of Erotic Fantasy) and the goal of the RPGA to provide a gaming environment suitable for all, my personal goal has become that more difficult.

I hope that clears things up (although I think I might have just muddied the waters a little more).

 

[CJF]

...how a naked woman in an RPG constitutes sex education is something you lost me on.

It doesn't. But talking to children about such things as breasts, so that if they see one in a book they'll know what it is and wont be potentially disturbed about it, is sex education.

 

[Atlantean DM]

...how a naked woman in an RPG constitutes sex education is something you lost me on.

It doesn't. But talking to children about such things as breasts, so that if they see one in a book they'll know what it is and wont be potentially disturbed about it, is sex education.

Not exactly. Too many people in our culture think that a woman's breasts are sexual organs. This is a false idea, a sophistry. The breasts of a woman is a physical symbol of her Womanhood. The female breast, or if you prefer the mammary gland, is a royal birthright all women hold. Their function is to help the woman provide one of the basic needs for a newborn baby: milk, anti-bodies, and more disease fighting agents to help that baby get a good start in life. I think the woman's breast should be dignified and celebrated. When we are ashamed of the bare breast and associate them with sexual union, then pictures baring the breast can count as pornography. Especially if they are out of proportion.

So the breasts shouldn't be sexually attracting at all when you realize their function. It's actually the face of a woman that is the most attractive feature. Commenting on the breasts in a positive way should be accepted by all women.

The picture of the naked girl in the Conan RPG is part of the world that Conan lives in and tells you a lot about his world. It isn't acceptable by my standards, but it's part of the reality that Conan lives in.

But boys should be taught to respect that part of the female anatomy as a defining part of a girl's womanhood. They should be taught the truth as to what use they are used for.

 

[skalvar]

Outlaw;

I'm not the Mouth of Mongoose (TM). That's Matt's job, and he can have it. I'm just a writer with a very strange take on the world we live in.

RE: Campaigns
From that perspective I can understand your concern. You raise a good number of valid points about the difficulties associated with the RPGA. Frankly that is a world I have very, very little traffic with, so the information is appreciated.

I just wonder if opening the potential for the Conan RPG to be a well done reference book that captures the spirit of Howard's tall tale telling barbarian creates a greater "non-gamer" market than the potential loss from a relatively small demographic in the overall gaming world.

I don't know, and had nothing to do with, the decision making process involved with the book. Similarly I do not know if the two states (opening accessiblity to the tiny demographic of younger gamers while expressing the lusty fantasy that is Conan's storytelling) really were mutually exclusive. Frankly I'm not sure that they are now, although the artwork obviously will make it more difficult. Young children can easily play the game without access to the core book; teen agers and young adults can handle seeing a nipple.

Just a handful of thoughts. Back to work now, before the Mouth of Mongoose catches me...

Shannon