Why use pornography?

[LoneStranger]

Eldren I can understand your point completely. In fact I know of a few places in Europe where women can sunbathe topless at least and no one cares. However you have to keep in mind what the people in the United States have to go through, there are plenty of people that will call the book pornography if they see the slightest hint of nudity contained on even one page. In fact there are probably some people in Europe who don't like topless beaches. Now yes I agree that those people shouldn't pick up the Conan book/go to any of those beaches but especially here in the US people can be so offended by a picture that they'll stare at it for hours on end until they start drooling, once they pull themselves together it's time to go on the warpath and stamp out the indecency.

In the long run I'm not disagreeing with you one bit Eldren, you just have to remember the idiot factor with some of these books.

 

[Hyborian]

Seriously - look at the cultures that are 'ok' with nudity like the Dutch or the French, and then compare their warrior ethoi to those of the more sexually repressed ones like the US (or the UK, to a lesser extent). No contest.

Well I cannot speak for the Dutch, but I don't know if we (the French) are 'ok' with nudity. Indeed, there is considerably less nudity on our TV and movies than in american medias. But maybe we consider it differently...

As for breasts in Conan RPG, I think that since the book depicts many weapons (and bloody ones, by the way) it SHOULD depict women's breasts, too : after all, most women at the Hyborian Age used their charms as weapons to survive. And this is what I like in Howard's works and Conan RPG : it doesn't belong to that asexual fantasy (who said D&D ?) where men and women wear the same clothes, handle the same weapons, do the same jobs and think the same way.

 

[S'mon]

Seriously - look at the cultures that are 'ok' with nudity like the Dutch or the French, and then compare their warrior ethoi to those of the more sexually repressed ones like the US (or the UK, to a lesser extent). No contest.

Well I cannot speak for the Dutch, but I don't know if we (the French) are 'ok' with nudity. Indeed, there is considerably less nudity on our TV and movies than in american medias. But maybe we consider it differently...

Yes, I think so - I've watched both American television (in America) and French television (in France). American television (in the USA) has NO nudity _ever_ unless you choose to pay for particular cable tv stations like HBO, which has shows like The Sopranos, Sex & the City and Oz, plus lots of old soft porn. French & British network tv frequently have nudity on shows broadcast later at night (after 9pm in UK). In the US you can 'access' nudity but you have to make a conscious financial choice to do so, by renting a video, going to see a particular movie, subscribing to a particular cable channel. There is pretty well never _any_ nudity on network broadcast tv or on most cable tv channels.
BTW often US tv shows have an American version (no nudity) and a rest-of-world version (with nudity), so that might be confusing you.

 

[Orkin]

Remember, it's the women from degenerate Hyborian lands that Howard shows running around naked.... :roll: Not that there's anything wrong with that...

 

[Eldren]

Well, This argument has no end, because this depend on the culture.

Yesterday i went to the pharmacy and i saw a big poster with a big naked female ass that was advertising a product to cellulitis and no one look at it as it is ofensive.
Actually our magazines publish photos with famous people naked in the beach (only with a little black circle in the genitals) and are normal magazines not the penthouse or something like this
So when i see a bare breast in a book and someone tells me that is pornography i can only laugh. But i have read that in the USA the nudity is more prohibited that here so i can understand you and i think you should understand me.


few days ago i readed "Conan Champion", some of the books that has been traslated to my languaje recently. In this book conan has to fight naked ( without even his loincloth) in front of a crowd, and the queen he is protecting is naked only dressed with some jewels.
And in the book conan and the red brotherhood the female pirates of a ship " were rowing almost naked in front of their male slaves"
we can search descriptions like this in all conan's books.

The setting is like this, women lost their cloth usually in the hands of an enemy when they try to escape and that is a fact no one can change it.

(Sorry for the mistakes but although i understand it expressing myself is more difficult

 

[Greg Smith]

Don't apologise, Eldren. Your English is a heck of a lot better than my Spanish.

 

[LoneStranger]

Yeah Eldren your english is really good.

Also I'm glad you understand the problems American gamers have with the "pornographic content" of Conan, and yes I understand the general level of acceptance of nudity in Spain and other parts of Europe.

 

[Anonymous]

l
Yes, but American culture's subliminating its citizens' sexual urges into violence has made them the world-conquering race they are today... :twisted:

Seriously - look at the cultures that are 'ok' with nudity like the Dutch or the French, and then compare their warrior ethoi to those of the more sexually repressed ones like the US (or the UK, to a lesser extent). No contest.

Actually, I think America's 'world conquering' urges have more to do with trying to deal with a world that was irreparably hosed at the end of World War I by the Colonial greed of some of the aforementioned countries than with a few prudes shocked by the female form. We don't sit around the dinner table in the US wondering if there is someone who needs bombs dropped on them. In fact, it seems to me that people kind of drop bombs on us, and then we stomp them. Not that we're all that perfect, I just don't think we're all that world conquering. Also, France kind of started the Vietnam War, by trying to keep their COLONY after we kicked the Japanese out. But maybe they didn't get laid a lot back then.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know if this is really the way that this kind of thread should be headed.

But, to speak about nudity and offense, I thing I'd get much more offended by ultraviolence that you can find in almoste every US RPG.

I really can't get why it is more offending to see a bare breast than to see red blooded weapon, mass murdering and other kind of violence.

Well, I won't say that Conan offended me that way, because that's what this setting is about (someone talked about some kind of racism, violence and nudity message in Howard's book, and that's kind of true).

But you can find lot of violence in more politicaly correct games.

And no one is bothered than children may have access to them because there is no nudity...

No one also will speak about more indeed erotism and sexually charged games, like Vampire TM for example.

But it looks like US morality has no problem about things showing a little bit, but not to much, lke baywatch, FHM and others, which do not show naked breast, but silliconed breasts in tiny little swimsuit...

I don't get the point...

I think that if you ever want to play with kids, you should get a game especially for them. There's some kind of non ultra violent, poetic and funny games that you can use, from toon (ok, a bit tricky) to Discworld.

We are adult, and, as adult, we should not be offended by so little thing that a picture in the mood of a game. Like we should not be offended to see nazi outfits in DP9's WWII Mecha game, or in Godlike.

But this is maybe true : we don't have the qame inhibitions here, in Europe. Nudity is not that big deal, unless it becomes, for us, real "pornography" (which is, for us, seeing pubic hairs or male penis, or sex act). And no, there is not tons of nudity on french TV. If you want to see erotic movies, it is once a week on regular tv, a little bit more on cable tv, and always late at night. You can always avoid them, without any difficulty.

More breasts, less weapons and fights. Maybe the way to peace down our minds and earth ?

 

[Möhbius of Numalia]

I don't know if this is really the way that this kind of thread should be headed.

Absolutely!

Again, I'm afraid that American and European points of view about nudity (and a whole lot of other things) are as follows:

"Two monks were traveling in the rain, the mud sloshing under their feet. As they passed a river crossing, they saw a beautiful woman, finely dressed, unable to cross because of the mud. Without a word, the older monk simply picked up the woman and carried her to the other side.

The young monk, seemingly agitated for the rest of their journey, could not contain himself once they reached their destination. He exploded at the older monk. "How could you, a monk, even consider holding a woman in your arms, much less a young and beautiful one? It is against our teachings. It is dangerous."

"I put her down at the roadside," said the older monk. "Are you still carrying her?"

Guess which monk is each one...

Really, my parents (God bless them!) would have disagreed with the big AXES, not with the big...

 

[S'mon]

Actually, I think America's 'world conquering' urges have more to do with trying to deal with a world that was irreparably hosed at the end of World War I by the Colonial greed of some of the aforementioned countries than with a few prudes shocked by the female form. We don't sit around the dinner table in the US wondering if there is someone who needs bombs dropped on them. In fact, it seems to me that people kind of drop bombs on us, and then we stomp them. Not that we're all that perfect, I just don't think we're all that world conquering. Also, France kind of started the Vietnam War, by trying to keep their COLONY after we kicked the Japanese out. But maybe they didn't get laid a lot back then.

Hey, it's cool, man! Chill! 8)

 

[gonzofighter]

I'm an american and I am not offended in the least. Not by boobs or bloody weapons. In fact I rather like them. They make the Conan RPG books sort of special to me. Mongoose is doing a fine job of capturing the dark and savage mood of the Hyborian age.

 

[Anonymous]

Even though mongoose is in the uk, here is something to keep in mind whilst distributing in the usa. (question; is this bill the reason mongoose moved their warehouse? Most definately not...but just curious

House Bill Threatens Retailers
Parents Can Sue Over Content
May 21, 2004

Republican Californian Congressman Duncan Hunter has introduced a bill titled the "Parents' Empowerment Act," which would allow the parent or guardian of a minor to sue (in federal court) anyone who knowingly disseminates any media which contains "material that is harmful to minors." If it passes, this bill would affect the entire supply chain, from publisher/manufacturer, to distributor, to retailer.



The bill goes on to specify that it will only apply if the material is distributed in a way that "a reasonable person can expect a substantial number of minors to be exposed to the material, is likely to suffer personal or emotional injury or injury to mental or moral welfare."



Compensatory damages under the bill would start at no less than $10,000 for any instance a minor is exposed to harmful entertainment products. The bill also provides a separate definition of obscenity specifically for children.



CBLDF Director Charles Brownstein said, "It appears to allow for civil actions against any, or every, member of the dissemination food chain, from the retailer to the distributor to the publisher, or work that an individual parent may object to. So any citizen, using their own sense of what is obscene or harmful to minors, can bring suit."


This bill, which has been currently referred to the House Judiciary Committee, is backed by the Christian Coalition, the American Center for Law and Justice and the World Family Policy Center at Brigham Young University.

 

[argo]

It'll never pass and even if it does it won't last two seconds in front of a Fedral judge. One of the basic precedents of First Amendment Law, and a precedent which the Supreme Court has upheld repetedly, is that consenting adults cannot be restricted in their speech to content which is suitable for minors just because a minor might (not is, might) be listening. This is the exact argument used to destroy those Internet Decency Acts a few years back and if they couldnt' make it stick on the internet they sure as heck aren't gonna make it stick on print publishing which the courts tend to look more favorably upon.

I supect Mr Hunter knows this full well (and if he doesen't he isn't smart enough to hold his position) and is simply sponsoring the bill as a grandstanding measure to please his constituents. Happens all the time.


Oh and can we lay off the America bashing please? It's kinda anoying and really uncalled for.

 

[Lane Shutt]

Sounds like another case of bad laws forcing personal beliefs on others.
Fortunately such a law would quickly be squashed by the courts. Obscenity laws are hard to enforce and punishing a publisher for what a retailer does is unreasonable.

IMHO this law is as poorly written as the Alabama state obscenity law which banned sex toys and could even be interpreted to make the lingerie section at Walmart illegal.

 

[Anonymous]

It is simply art... Go to the "What Mongoose should publish next?" forum and say : "Mongoose should publish a reedition of Conan without the barebreasted woman on every pages..."

Have fun... we're almost to 13 pages under this thread...

 

[Cranus]

Yeah, the law shouldn't last... It all depends on the Supreme Court.

Frankly, I am not bothered in the least by nude figures of women in the Conan books. One, its part of the setting. Two, its art. Three, its the top half of the female body. Honestly, half the excitement over that portion of a woman's anatomy is because people insist that it be covered all the time.

 

[Anonymous]

What world conquering urges? America has been getting its blue and white ass turned blue and black in every war. Vietnam, Somalia, Korea, etc etc etc. Someone always ends up bailing the usa out, after it gets its ass kicked. Check out the news these days

 

[Anonymous]

I am offended by the bare breast in the Conan D20 book. Offended by the fact that there are no other parts of the gorgeous female anatomy that receive the same treatment. Damn prejudiced artists! Why must they push their selective nude tastes on me?

To quote Sly Foxx/ICP

"LET'S GO ALL THE WAAAAYYY"

To quote Curtis Armstrong from "Revenge of the Nerds"

"I WANT BUSH...PAN DOWN!"

 

[S'mon]

Hey, it's cool, man! Chill! 8)

OK, I should never have mentioned America's martial prowess and possible connection to sexual hang-ups*... and more importantly the moderators should have stopped me immediately! I blame the moderators! Darn them and their libertarian laissez-faire attitudes! Darn them to heck!

It'd never be allowed on ENWorld...

*I love Americans BTW. So much I married one. She's cool.