Pioneer Gameplay Concerns

[lategamer]

I'm going to try adapting the Influence system from Pioneer to Traveller and see how it goes. That plus the Reputation system from Bounty Hunter really changes the game into one of social maneuvering with some teeth.

It seems there is an element of that, right? Jockeying for Pioneer contracts, trying to get missions, travelling to get Russian scientists to defect….

There a social game, an espionage game, an engineering tech tree game. I can see a whole raft of possibilities (which I briefly touched on in my d66 book)

 

[rinku]

A tech tree may not make a huge amount of sense. Tech Levels aren't something I'd expect would add anything to Pioneer.

But I WOULD expect some later product that discusses the overall sweep of technical development through the era.

 

[rinku]

As I think we all expected, the sections on adapting to and operating in microgravity make for a nice Traveller supplement, for when the grav plates are off for any amount of time. Even in a normal Traveller campaign that's quite possible for various reasons.

 

[rinku]

The experience system is another mechanic that might suit some Traveller player groups:



For all I know this isn't new, and has turned up in the Journal or another source of alternative rules. But I do like it.

 

[Studio Cat]

It seems there is an element of that, right? Jockeying for Pioneer contracts, trying to get missions, travelling to get Russian scientists to defect….

There a social game, an espionage game, an engineering tech tree game. I can see a whole raft of possibilities.

For Pioneer, yes. I'm thinking of something more for Traveller to allow for games where political or social influence may be key ingredients like a Dynasty or Pocket Empire or Colony Alpha game. I'm thinking of a more inter-related and personal mechanic than the Affinity/Enmity and Power/Influence rules presented in Fifth Frontier War.

Mongoose should look into this as well since it could be a useful evolutionary step for the Traveller system.

 

[lategamer]

Mongoose should look into this as well since it could be a useful evolutionary step for the Traveller system.

A lot of these would work well through third party supplements. I’m more focused on Pioneer (it’s a zeitgeist thing).

As I think we all expected, the sections on adapting to and operating in microgravity make for a nice Traveller supplement, for when the grav plates are off for any amount of time. Even in a normal Traveller campaign that's quite possible for various reasons.

This is why I really miss CHALLENGE. That would be perfect for it.

A tech tree may not make a huge amount of sense. Tech Levels aren't something I'd expect would add anything to Pioneer.
But I WOULD expect some later product that discusses the overall sweep of technical development through the era.

Adding decimals to the existing Tech Level might be an option. Going from this list:

• TL 7–8: Late 20th century to early 21st century feel
• TL 9–11: Near-future, advanced computers, better spacecraft systems, smarter weapons

Pioneer seems to be running in TL8-9, right?
So in the interest of fun (and inevitably being told how wrong I am), here’s a short list.

• TL 8.5 — Space technology becomes more practical and routine, with reusable systems, long-duration habitats, and more reliable off-world operations, though still not truly commonplace.
• TL 8.6 — Energy storage, batteries, portable power, and compact reactors or generation systems improve enough to reshape vehicles, settlements, and expeditionary logistics. Interface vehicles are no longer just the remit of national governments and trillionaires. Normal people are able to experience LEO.
• TL 8.7 — Materials science advances produce lighter, stronger, and more heat-resistant composites, making equipment more efficient, more durable, and easier to field in extreme environments. Spacecraft become truly re-usable.
• TL 8.8 — AI-assisted control, modelling, and diagnostics become trusted parts of engineering, warfare, medicine, and navigation, even if fully autonomous decision-making remains constrained. Extended operation with smart AI starts to expand through the solar system.
• TL 8.9 — Society sits on the threshold of a true breakthrough era, with high automation, mature orbital industry, and advanced systems integration pointing clearly toward the next technological order. The synthesis of human and artificial intelligence efforts enables rapid expansion.
• TL 9.0 — Early high technology emerges, marked by a society that can routinely support sophisticated orbital infrastructure, highly capable automation, and the first systems that feel like real AGI start to emerge.
• TL 9.1 — Cis-lunar space and the inner solar system begin to function as a genuine human sphere of activity rather than a frontier of heroic expeditions, as emerging AGI, mature automation, reusable spacecraft, and high-end industrial infrastructure combine to make sustained expansion, construction, and settlement not merely possible but increasingly normal.
• TL 9.2 — Mars is no longer an exceptional destination but a developing second centre of human activity, while expeditions, stations, and industrial footholds spread into the outer planets, supported by increasingly capable AGI, hardened autonomous systems, and a space economy able to sustain operations across the full breadth of the Solar System.

As a guide I’d probably allocate 10 years to each “level”. Which can be lengthened or shortened by player activity. Disasters lengthen the process, Successes shorten it.

 

[rinku]

I'm just reading the Technology section and saw this: "Most systems on a spacecraft are of the flight heritage variety, but spacecraft invariably use prototype and early prototype technology as well."

And the rules for it not working and the characters fixing it.

Artemis II. Toilet.

They really have nailed this.

 

[rinku]

A lot of these would work well through third party supplements. I’m more focused on Pioneer (it’s a zeitgeist thing).



This is why I really miss CHALLENGE. That would be perfect for it.



Adding decimals to the existing Tech Level might be an option. Going from this list:

• TL 7–8: Late 20th century to early 21st century feel
• TL 9–11: Near-future, advanced computers, better spacecraft systems, smarter weapons

Pioneer seems to be running in TL8-9, right?
So in the interest of fun (and inevitably being told how wrong I am), here’s a short list.

• TL 8.5 — Space technology becomes more practical and routine, with reusable systems, long-duration habitats, and more reliable off-world operations, though still not truly commonplace.
• TL 8.6 — Energy storage, batteries, portable power, and compact reactors or generation systems improve enough to reshape vehicles, settlements, and expeditionary logistics. Interface vehicles are no longer just the remit of national governments and trillionaires. Normal people are able to experience LEO.
• TL 8.7 — Materials science advances produce lighter, stronger, and more heat-resistant composites, making equipment more efficient, more durable, and easier to field in extreme environments. Spacecraft become truly re-usable.
• TL 8.8 — AI-assisted control, modelling, and diagnostics become trusted parts of engineering, warfare, medicine, and navigation, even if fully autonomous decision-making remains constrained. Extended operation with smart AI starts to expand through the solar system.
• TL 8.9 — Society sits on the threshold of a true breakthrough era, with high automation, mature orbital industry, and advanced systems integration pointing clearly toward the next technological order. The synthesis of human and artificial intelligence efforts enables rapid expansion.
• TL 9.0 — Early high technology emerges, marked by a society that can routinely support sophisticated orbital infrastructure, highly capable automation, and the first systems that feel like real AGI start to emerge.
• TL 9.1 — Cis-lunar space and the inner solar system begin to function as a genuine human sphere of activity rather than a frontier of heroic expeditions, as emerging AGI, mature automation, reusable spacecraft, and high-end industrial infrastructure combine to make sustained expansion, construction, and settlement not merely possible but increasingly normal.
• TL 9.2 — Mars is no longer an exceptional destination but a developing second centre of human activity, while expeditions, stations, and industrial footholds spread into the outer planets, supported by increasingly capable AGI, hardened autonomous systems, and a space economy able to sustain operations across the full breadth of the Solar System.

As a guide I’d probably allocate 10 years to each “level”. Which can be lengthened or shortened by player activity. Disasters lengthen the process, Successes shorten it.

I really don't think any of this is needed (BUT if you like it, use it!). The three phases, corresponding to the stages of solar system expansion (Moon through Mars landing, Inner System, Outer system) and the progression of tech towards Core from Prototype and Early Protoype is a good approach.

But having said all that, if you're looking to map Pioneer stuff to regular Traveller, it's a reasonable idea.

Oh, and from the box on importing Traveller stuff, they appear to have loosely pegged Phase 1 at TL8 or less (Core), Phase 2 at TL9 (prototype) and Phase 3 at TL10 (early prototype), with the BIG caveat of no gravitics, FTL or use of High Guard design (Robot and Vehicle Handbook can be used). But TL10 implants as an early prototype in Phase 1? Allowable.

 

[lategamer]

I'm just reading the Technology section and saw this: "Most systems on a spacecraft are of the flight heritage variety, but spacecraft invariably use prototype and early prototype technology as well."

And the rules for it not working and the characters fixing it.

Artemis II. Toilet.

They really have nailed this.

I don’t understand the latter half of this.

I saw the prototype section but wasn’t sure if any of the vessels mentioned were using them. Also….they can’t be prototypes forever. There’s a time when they come into common use. Is that left to the GM?

I’m a homebrewer so I guess I could come up with something. Just seems half done for the average bod.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Your TLs are way off.

Pioneer Earth is still TL7 and will be until fusion power plants and gravitics change the paradigm

So what we are looking at is a tech tree for advancement within TL7

chemical rockets
nuclear thermal rockest
electric propultion
fusion rockets (these may be a lot closer than you think - not a fusion power plant but a rocket motor that uses fusion to heat the reaction mass)

then there are the AI and robot advances that are just around the corner (or may even already be here)

Note that the Space X Falcon has now successfully landed over 600 times, with an individual booster capable of 30+ uses.

The game changers will be Starship - if it works - orbital refueling stations, lunar base to manufacture rocket fuel and spacecraft parts, nuclear thermal engines, and the aforementioned fusion engine.

 

[lategamer]

Your TLs are way off.

Pioneer Earth is still TL7 and will be until fusion power plants and gravitics change the paradigm

(I didn’t want to be debating the details but Travellerrpg.com says



So I was really into the guts of 8, approaching towards 9 but not there yet.

So what we are looking at is a tech tree for advancement within TL7

chemical rockets
nuclear thermal rockest
electric propultion
fusion rockets (these may be a lot closer than you think - not a fusion power plant but a rocket motor that uses fusion to heat the reaction mass)

then there are the AI and robot advances that are just around the corner (or may even already be here)

They’re definitely not here.
(And weirdly not in Traveller)

Note that the Space X Falcon has now successfully landed over 600 times, with an individual booster capable of 30+ uses.

The game changers will be Starship - if it works - orbital refueling stations, lunar base to manufacture rocket fuel and spacecraft parts, nuclear thermal engines, and the aforementioned fusion engine.

I think that shows we are at the start of reusable spacecraft, not the finished product.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ignore the wiki...

The Mongoose Traveller core rulebook (2024) flat out states:

"TL7 (Pre-Stellar)
A pre-stellar society can reach orbit reliably and has telecommunications satellites. Computers and integrated circuits become ubiquitous. At the time of writing, Earth is currently somewhere between TL7 and TL8."

"TL8 (Pre-Stellar) At TL8, it is possible to reach other worlds in the same star system, although terraforming or full colonisation are not within the culture’s capacity. Permanent space habitats become possible. Fusion power becomes commercially viable"

The Pioneer setting may extend to the first Lunar base, the first Mars base, permanent space stations, but these are not the full colonisation mentioned. Permanent space habitats such as O' Neill stations or the Stanford torus and the like are likely beyond Pioneer's era. Fusion power stations will remain 20 years in the Pioneer future, whatever date you set

 

[lategamer]

Ignore the wiki...

Ok

"TL8 (Pre-Stellar) At TL8, it is possible to reach other worlds in the same star system, although terraforming or full colonisation are not within the culture’s capacity. Permanent space habitats become possible. Fusion power becomescommercially viable"

So it’s TL8

P151

“Tech Level: All standard items must be TL8 or below. A Prototype may be TL9, and an Early Prototype could be TL10, but no anti-gravity, fusion power, psionic devices, and certainly no FTL technology should be allowed.”

But also

“Selection: Pioneer does not have anti-gravity or small-scale fusion power”

Which implies there is large scale fusion?

The fusion reactor thing is funny because p233 says
“Helium-3: The solar wind also deposits helium-3, a useful fuel for some fusion reactors.”

Reactors that don’t exist. Or do they.

The Pioneer setting may extend to the first Lunar base, the first Mars base, permanent space stations, but these are not the full colonisation mentioned. Permanent space habitats such as O' Neill stations or the Stanford torus and the like are likely beyond Pioneer's era.

I’d be very surprised if there isn’t a space habitat in Pioneer to replace the ISS on a much more permanent basis. Also that may be the difference between 8.1 and 8.5

LEO Prime, Luna Halo,…

Fusion power stations will remain 20 years in the Pioneer future, whatever date you set

The base book has all sorts of vessels available with the assumption they’re available at game start I guess.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ok

So it’s TL8

Not until the manned space stations, Lunar and mars stations are permanently populated.

P151

“Tech Level: All standard items must be TL8 or below. A Prototype may be TL9, and an Early Prototype could be TL10, but no anti-gravity, fusion power, psionic devices, and certainly no FTL technology should be allowed.”

But also

“Selection: Pioneer does not have anti-gravity or small-scale fusion power”

Which implies there is large scale fusion?

The fusion reactor thing is funny because p233 says
“Helium-3: The solar wind also deposits helium-3, a useful fuel for some fusion reactors.”

Reactors that don’t exist. Or do they.

The proposed fusion engine will use helium 3

I’d be very surprised if there isn’t a space habitat in Pioneer to replace the ISS on a much more permanent basis. Also that may be the difference between 8.1 and 8.5

LEO Prime, Luna Halo,…

I would require permanent habitation rather than rotating crew to even postulate breaking the TL8 barrier.

The base book has all sorts of vessels available with the assumption they’re available at game start I guess.

The real world may over take the tech of Pioneer engines before the setting start date.

 

[lategamer]

Not until the manned space stations, Lunar and mars stations are permanently populated.

The rule book says TL8 or lower. So.

The real world may over take the tech of Pioneer engines before the setting start date.

This happened with Traveller (in terms of computers and astronomy) already. I’ll be dismayed if we beat the setting to fusion.

 

[shirgall]

This happened with Traveller (in terms of computers and astronomy) already. I’ll be dismayed if we beat the setting to fusion.

You have two years.

Announcing Helion’s fusion power purchase agreement with Microsoft | Helion

Helion

www.helionenergy.com

 

[rinku]

I don’t understand the latter half of this.

I saw the prototype section but wasn’t sure if any of the vessels mentioned were using them. Also….they can’t be prototypes forever. There’s a time when they come into common use. Is that left to the GM?

I’m a homebrewer so I guess I could come up with something. Just seems half done for the average bod.

Okay, you may have skipped over the importance and use of Epoch phases. Everything in the core rulebook is based on Phase 1 - as things develop Protoype tech becomes Core and Early Prototype tech becomes Prototype, with new stuff being introduced as Early Prototype. I'm pretty sure the plan is to publish Phase 2 products later on, and Phase 3 ones after that. Some of the Stretch goals might be that.



As far as vessels having prototype or early prototype equipment, if gear isn't marked as such, it's Core. It looks like players are meant to be directly involved in adding any extra equipment; see the use of Influence for doing that.

As far as Large Scale Fusion goes... the core book doesn't have descriptions of hydroelectric dams or coal fired power plants either. I'm assuming Large Scale is building size, VERY massive, and impractical for spacecraft and stations. You *might* eventually see it on a planetary colony, but getting stuff there is hard, and it's likely too big a project yet.

And for the Moon base specifically, solar/battery and nuclear are pretty efficient. I could see a Phase 2 Helium-3 fusion plant, though.