Why not just be a pirate?

rust said:
You seem to be convinced that the Imperium takes the taxes without defending the systems. I have doubts that the populations who pay taxes and get no protection of their systems and their interstellar trade in return
would accept such a situation, an Imperium of this kind could only be held
together by brute force, if at all - "No taxation without protection" would
make an excellent slogan for a rebellion.
Read everything canon on the 3I again.

Entire systems can go to war with other systems, and the 3I policy of not interfering with the laws/gov't of individual planets keeps the 3I out of it.

But, when all this gets in the way of trade, of the 3I collecting taxes and such, THEN it gets involved in a big way.

There is a great deal of misconception about how the 3I runs... no instant communications between star systems, the age of sail type response times because of how word gets around, what the 3I can afford to keep in a sector let alone each subsector or star system.

So, basically this ain't no set-up for another American Revolution
 
GamerDude said:
But, when all this gets in the way of trade, of the 3I collecting taxes and such, THEN it gets involved in a big way.
This is my point. Piracy gets in the way of trade and reduces the collected
taxes, and therefore the Imperium will do its best to fight piracy where-
ever it can, in densely populated core regions as well as along the frontier.

However, if it would neglect this duty and continue to collect taxes without
using the money to protect the populations who paid those taxes, their sy-
stems would have an excellent reason to rebel.
 
rust said:
This is my point. Piracy gets in the way of trade and reduces the collected taxes, and therefore the Imperium will do its best to fight piracy where-
ever it can, in densely populated core regions as well as along the frontier.
You Win...

The Third Imperium announced yesterday that a full-all out effort to stem what tiny bit of piracy there is (compared to the vastness of the entire Imperium), the Emperor has ordered pulling every possible ship from all assigned duties no matter what they are and are to advance at top speeds to any location where even a single claim of piracy can be found.

An external propaganda campaign has been started by the 3I department of security aimed at convincing all potential and possible threats, both external and internal, that our forces are still on the job at their posts protecting and defending the 3I against these significantly greater threats.

This "War on Pirates" is expected to have significantly higher results and level of effectiveness than the "War on Drugs", the "War on Illegal CD/DVD copies", and the "War on stopping another dreck Twilight novel from being published"
 
GamerDude said:
... the Emperor has ordered pulling every possible ship from all assigned duties no matter what they are and are to advance at top speeds to any location where even a single claim of piracy can be found.
Well, since the navy is also the interstellar police force of the Imperium, I
would indeed expect at least the navy units on police duty to be deployed
where there is interstellar crime and to investigate any new crime scenes,
as these are just the fundamental basics of police work.

Whether it is plausible to have an interstellar state which does not distin-
guish between its military and its police is another matter, I see it as just
one of Traveller's many implausibilities caused by its attempt to mirror an
Age of Sail society instead of a futuristic one.
 
rust said:
Well, since the navy is also the interstellar police force of the Imperium, I
would indeed expect at least the navy units on police duty to be deployed
where there is interstellar crime and to investigate any new crime scenes,
as these are just the fundamental basics of police work.

Whether it is plausible to have an interstellar state which does not distin-
guish between its military and its police is another matter, I see it as just
one of Traveller's many implausibilities caused by its attempt to mirror an
Age of Sail society instead of a futuristic one.

Well I don't know given the vast amount of empty space in any given star system and limits of the technology in the setting it seems like the only workable system. Within those two givens how do you think the jump lanes should be policed?
 
gloomhound said:
Within those two givens how do you think the jump lanes should be policed?
I would expect the existence of something like an Imperial "space patrol"
with an office on each inhabited planet of the Imperium, its own fleet of
patrol / police ships (both spaceships for system duty and starships for
interstellar duty) and specialized departments for its different tasks, from
smuggling to piracy (and of course including intelligence).

This would ensure that "law and order" in Imperial space continue to be
enforced even during a foreign policy crisis or a war, when the navy has
to be used as a military instrument instead of a law enforcement instru-
ment. As the Imperium is described now, the frontier war breaks out,
the navy goes to war, and law and order in Imperial space break down
because the navy is now elsewhere - in my view an incredibly stupid
concept.

An added advantage would be that this interstellar police force would be
non-combattant, and therefore not a legitimate target in a war, which
would also help to ensure that law enforcement continues during a crisis,
and is less likely to be wiped out by enemy activities.
 
By the way, it would also solve the little problem that the navy does law
enforcement, but the navy personnel created with the core rules has none
of the skills required for a law enforcement role, and even the careers of
High Guard do not fit that role well - even Naval Intelligence does not ha-
ve the Investigate skill.
 
Rust, I'm sorry but really, slow down on the rapid reply to everything and check out the history of the 3I in the CT/MT/TNE/T4 books. The re-read about things like how we lost actual "interstellar wars" because of the frozen-molasses slow information travel, response, and ship transit times to respond to ANY significant issue.

The Frontier Wars
The 'Interstellar' Wars (Solomani making contact with the edge of the 1st I).

The 1st I lost at least the First Interstellar war because it was pretty much over before even that sector governor could really get the sector forces mobilized. It is that slow and difficult.

But, unfortunately, you want it that the 3I has this massive battle fleet that is so huge that it can not only maintain the MILITARY duties it has on the borders and such, but can also fill every empty space in every system that even has a hint of pirate activity.

As I said, 'you win'... yep. Systems are such a hot bed of "anti-taxation" rhetoric, the 'space pirate' problem is so sever and so widespread it's like the each system is terrorized by a pirate organization big enough to rival the entire Reaver fleet from "Serenity" that the entire Imperium is on the verge of collapse.
........
Think about it, if piracy in a particular system became too big of a problem, was taking too many ships in too short a period of time, word would get out and merchants/cargo haulers would just begin avoiding the system and do business elsewhere.

If it ever got that bad, the System Gov't itself would be under huge pressure from the populace to get its act together and address it BEFORE Imperial aid was needed. Well they would or they would find that nice 'taxation with no protection' revolt happening a lot faster against the local gov't.

The 3I is concerned with what happens in the space BETWEEN the stars, not as much what happens AROUND/in the star system.
......
But, hey. There's the material published and what you want to do... do what you want in your game. How many times has that been said. But, insisting what YOU want is what the Published materials says just to justify your wants.

meh
 
GamerDude said:
But, unfortunately, you want it that the 3I has this massive battle fleet that is so huge that it can not only maintain the MILITARY duties it has on the borders and such, but can also fill every empty space in every system that even has a hint of pirate activity.
Please see my last two posts ^^, where I explain my position (separation
of navy and interstellar law enforcement, etc.), which is almost the exact
opposite of what you claim that I would want. :lol:
 
Don't forget the 10 year old War on Terror. And that's on the same planet as a government that spends more on defense than the rest of the world combined...

Honestly, the reality is that the Age of Sail is a very good analogy for the OTU. It was set up to be. Pirates existed in the Age of Sail. Therefore, I see no reason why pirates won't exist in the OTU 3I.

Heck, there is a pirate problem NOW and we can't stop them (or won't).

Also, note that during the Age of Sail, it wasn't as if the pirate problem was so huge that it created massive impediments to trade. It sucked only if your ship was the unlucky one.

Later, after the US came into existence, pirates acted more like the Barbary states. They only went after "weak nations." The 3I isn't a weak nation, obviously, but the Fleet can't be everywhere, just as the Royal Navy wasn't everywhere (though it came close).

In short, despite all knowing that "pirates in the OTU" is a topic that creates massive debate, we've all just engaged in it again.
 
It will if there is a threat. So, there ya go. Logic & pirates breathing vacuum.

You're still overstating things even with half the US budget. Unless I have something wrong, the average mainworld generated by the Traveller system is a population class 5, or shy of a million people, depending on how you read the 'range' column.



That's not the USA.
That's Bahrain. Cyprus. Iceland. The Bahamas. These are countries that struggle to maintain a credible 'wet' navy, let alone consider a meaningful void-based one.
 
Paraphrasing from the difinitive work on the subject "sector Fleet" by MJD

1. The job of the navy is war, that means it buys big ships to crush enemies.

2. Spreading your fleet out to cover everything at once is suicide. Fleets mst be concentrated ready to act anf fight as a fleet. You cannot afford to spend weeks sending couriers to find all your warships if someone invades.

3. Anti piracy is best done localy, system or subsector security who know the area and the peoples and who have light cheap ships.

It goes on with more points but these three cover the high lights.

It is NOT the job of the Imperial fleet to put down a dinky little pirate corsair. If said corsair pulls a raid while a naval ship is close then its some handy target practice for the fleet gunners but otherwise the fleet is looking out for subsector wide rebelions and alien invasions. The corridor sector has piracy, it also has the most powerfull naval fleet in the entire 3rdI. The fleet is there to deal with the doggy 30k cruisers not the 400dton corsairs though see above for target practice.

Every subsector of the 3rdI maintains a numbered fleet. These vary depending on the size, importance and wealth of the subsector. These subsector and colonial fleets are equipoed with smaller and older (read cheaper) ships and naval cast offs, this is where old cruisers and battleships go to spend thier last years of service. :D

The subsector fleets are more involved with anti piracy because the security of the subsector is thier main concern not the security of the entire 3rdI

Below these you have System forces, Hurscarles, Megacorp fleets (Al Morai route protectors, q-ships etc) and star mercs. These are all generaly under 1000dtons. It is these ships along with the subsector escorts that do the anti piracy work.

Now some of the problems.

The 3rdI is a mess, its full of backward worlds that cannot hope to produce even the most basic support for tech 12+ naval or ground units. The mains (jump 1 routes) on which the vast bulk of imperial ships travel use far too many of the backwaters to refuel.
There are a huge number of civilian ships out there. Millions of ships in fact. Some time ago I did some rough figures of how many hundred ships visit terra each day. The spinward main has tens of thousands of ships along its length and scores of systems with trillions of cubic Km to guard.
A small gas giant has an approx surface area of 62179600000km2. A standard ship with decent military sensors has a maximum detection range with minimal details (enough to detect an object as a ship) of 300,000km radius. How many ships are needed to be sure no pirate sneaks through and hides in the atmosphere of that gas giant.

There should be next to no piracy round the 100D jump ins of main worlds, major asteroid belts should be fairly secure due to the wealth of the mines so they will be defended. A main system gas giant will be defended against enemy attack, they will eat pirates for snacks,

However away from the main worlds pirates have a good chance.

If pirates are raiding traffic at some tech 6 backwater then modern ships need to be sent there, these ships need to bring in modern supplies. The transports that bring those (expensive and very piratable) goods then need to be escorted becasue there are pirates in the backwater systems.

Once you get ships there you can hunt down and wip out the stupid pirates and get the tri-d reportersround for a quote about your heroic victory. THe smart pirates have long since gone.

Piracy is a bit like a virus. While it is very small it can be un noticed, if it grows past a certain point it gets dealt with, hard.

Plus, what is a pirate. If they are only hitting ships of one world or one line then are they privateers in a legal war. Is it a personal argument, two companies having a dispute. Underhanded trade deals gone wrong. Local security after bribes and showing what happens when you don't pay the "system transit fee".

The 3rdI could be pirate free. It just needs to take away every private ship, nuke every world with a starport not under military control, ban every alien ship then shoot them on sight and acept that the economy just crashed. On the other hand if piracy is 0.000000001% of your economy and a handy excuse to have smaller warships visiting and snooping around all the time then so be it.

Sorry for the long post.
 
apoc527 said:
Don't forget the 10 year old War on Terror. And that's on the same planet as a government that spends more on defense than the rest of the world combined...

Honestly, the reality is that the Age of Sail is a very good analogy for the OTU. It was set up to be. Pirates existed in the Age of Sail. Therefore, I see no reason why pirates won't exist in the OTU 3I.
...
In short, despite all knowing that "pirates in the OTU" is a topic that creates massive debate, we've all just engaged in it again.
I think a discussion on 'pirates in the OTU' is a healthy one, as long as we remember how the OTU has been defined and described. It's when any of us (including me) take our opinion of how we see it working in our own TU's and try to impose it on the OTU that we hit the sand bar we can't see under the water.

In many ways, the OTU is soooo huge and vast that it's hard to apply what is, does, and has happened on Earth to it. The age of sail but instead of a single planet it's hundreds or thousands of light years across. Communications lag times are in weeks not in days (don't remember how long it took to sail on average from say, Florida to the UK.)

This is why I like a smaller campaign 'universe' maybe no more than a standard Traveller sector, something manageable, even with the standard Traveller FTL mechanic, it's easier to manage, plenty of room to do lots of great adventures, and fits in the dishwasher for easy cleaning.
 
Vile said:
A non-military "Space Patrol" eh? Possibly with small, fast "Pursuit Ships"? Very interesting idea ... :wink:
Yep, I admit that it was Spica Publishing's Career Book 1 which made me
think about this, especially after I realized that none of the navy careers
published by Mongoose has the law enforcement skills to deal with pira-
cy, and Spica's Nemesis Class pursuit ship indeed became a standard of
the anti-piracy units of my setting's law enforcement. :D

As for the Third Imperium, well, the first post of the thread mentions nei-
ther the Third Imperoum nor its navy, so I see this as a discussion about
piracy in Traveller, not as a discussion about piracy in the Third Imperi-
um, although this example of a Traveller setting usually creeps in when-
ever Traveller is discussed - probably because it is one of the compara-
tively few settings I am aware of where the question pro / contra piracy
can be answered both ways with equally good arguments.
 
Somebody said:
For me any discussion about Traveller is always OTU/3 Imperium since I do not care about other settings.
There's our communication problem, as I do not care about the Third
Imperium setting. :lol:
 
Really with planet generation in MGT, Pirate bases are placed into the hexes along with scouts and navy bases etc.

I'd say its only in those places you have to deal with pirates, which are most commonly seen in C-class Starport Hexes and not all in A-class (probably due to high Imperial and Naval presence) or X-class (generally due to low population in these rarities).

Note that there are no Navy bases in C-class Hexes where funnily enough, its more common for Pirates... something to dwell on there.

But again, dont worry about Pirates unless theres an actual base in your hex.
 
zero said:
Really with planet generation in MGT, Pirate bases are placed into the hexes along with scouts and navy bases etc.
The really funny thing is that pirate bases are noted in the UWP and mar-
ked on the star charts, but the Imperial navy obviously has no access to
informations every crew member can look up in his ship's library program.
 
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