Why are warships built without armored bulkheads, EM hardening, and backup power?

Yes, it says or an attack. But Turret weapons are the only attack in that set of rules. It is my opinion that the fact that a rules set that only has turrets does not specify that it does not apply to things that don't exist in the game yet is not evidence that it is supposed to let you have +5 to your spinal mount shot or whatever.
The rules in Core covers combat with HG ships. Bays and Spinals attack using the rules in Core, there are no special rules for them.



And I feel like this makes it clear:
View attachment 2672
Yes, of course. If you have more than a few weapons, basic Fire Control won't help much.

But, it is true, it does not categorically prohibit using basic fire control on your bays and spinal mounts. With that interpetation, every spinal mount equipped ship (and any with a single dominant bay weapon, as well) should have Basic Fire Control/5 running in parallel to get the extra +2 to hit on the main attack and let the Advanced Fire Control handle the secondary armaments.
Yes, of course. There is no limitation as to what software can run concurrently. You can even run several instances of FireControl/5, if you have a computer big enough.
 
Allows the computer to fire a number of turrets per round equal to the listed number. Alternatively, it can give a positive DM to an attack equal to the listed number or any combination of the two. For example, a ship with Fire Control/2 could make two automated attacks, grant DM+2 to a gunner making an attack or make one automated attack with DM+1.


1. Zero sum.

2. Does it work it work on non turret related weapon platforms - probably not.

3. You could probably write a programme for bays.
 
Look let's do this realistically...
The scenario is entirely too set-piece and the intruder ships were hand picked to defeat the defender. The scenario depicted is the standard Trillion Credit tactic of overwhelming the defender with a mob of goblins. The thumb is distinctly on the scale.
To game this out properly, may I suggest the following changes to the scenario:
- Pull two opposing fleets from 'War Fleets of the 5FW'.
- Fight them by the doctrine and tactics described in 'The Fifth Frontier War', 'War Fleets' and 'Opening Moves'
- Resist mightily the urge to give each commander perfect intell and/or have the perfect solution for what the enemy does
- Remember that ships jumping into system DO NOT arrive together. Even with highly tuned drives and the best computers and software available operated by the most well trained and intuitive astrogators in each fleet, a full fleet WILL arrive over the course of hours on up to a full day. MWM displayed this in Agent of the Imperium so that's how we should wargame this out.
- Do not assume that every system operator is a skill level 4 master of their craft. Most systems on military vehicles are operated by 22 year old spacehands with, at most, skill level 2 in their assigned job task. They are supervised by skill level 3 and 4 experts but supervised is a long way from operated. Let's even be more realistic about it. The Zhodani ships have just completed a year-long very intensive training cycle, while Imperial vessels have been operating business as usual. So give the Zho crews skill level 2 and the Impies skill level 1.

From these start conditions game out the entire battle.
 
Ottarus is correct that warships are not actually designed for maximum combat effectiveness, because that's only a small part of their function. If that extra performance comes at too great a cost to its other functions, the ship won't be built that way. Ships are also designed to fight known opponents. Can the Imperial Fleet beat the Zhodani Fleet? Can it beat the Solomani Fleet? Can it handle the Vargr and Ihatei raiding groups?
Vargr are going to become nasty. We've shown that the ultimate ship designs are the small ones, not the big ones. Mounting a Large Bay on a 1,000-ton ship for example. In the Third Imperium, Battleships do not patrol, since battleships as patrol craft suck. They sit in Depots or naval bases and wait for a war. This has been stated in previously in published material.
Maybe more cruisers would be "better", but there is diplomatic, political, and logistical advantages to battleships in certain circumstances. And if those three cruisers can't beat the dreadnought, then they aren't enough even if they give you enormous advantages in flexibility.
Based on the conversations in this thread, it is not cruisers that defeat Dreadnaughts, it is swarms of 1,000-ton ACS making their spinal mounts obsolete since targeting 1,000-ton ships with a spinal sucks, and the swarm does more damage with their Large Meson Bays.
And so on with every design decision down the line. They give something and take something away. You can decide that the Imperium is building the best ships it can given the innumerable competing demands on the Navy or you can spend a lot of time rebuilding all the published ships to suit what you think they should be. Which is doubtless fun for some people, so more power to them.
I can decide to believe any "alternative facts" I wish, but that doesn't change what happens when a war starts. Then how combat effective they really are becomes the only thing that is important. Also, "what you think they should be"? Math isn't an opinion.
 
Look let's do this realistically...
The scenario is entirely too set-piece and the intruder ships were hand picked to defeat the defender. The scenario depicted is the standard Trillion Credit tactic of overwhelming the defender with a mob of goblins. The thumb is distinctly on the scale.
To game this out properly, may I suggest the following changes to the scenario:
- Pull two opposing fleets from 'War Fleets of the 5FW'.
- Fight them by the doctrine and tactics described in 'The Fifth Frontier War', 'War Fleets' and 'Opening Moves'
- Resist mightily the urge to give each commander perfect intell and/or have the perfect solution for what the enemy does
- Remember that ships jumping into system DO NOT arrive together. Even with highly tuned drives and the best computers and software available operated by the most well trained and intuitive astrogators in each fleet, a full fleet WILL arrive over the course of hours on up to a full day. MWM displayed this in Agent of the Imperium so that's how we should wargame this out.
- Do not assume that every system operator is a skill level 4 master of their craft. Most systems on military vehicles are operated by 22 years old with, at most, skill level 2 in their assigned job task. They are supervised by skill level 3 and 4 experts but supervised is a long way from operated. Let's even be more realistic about it. The Zhodani ships have just completed a year-long very intensive training cycle, while Imperial vessels have been operating business as usual. So give the Zho crews skill level 2 and the Impies skill level 1.

From these start conditions game out the entire battle.
If We do this though, how will that answer any of Our questions about the new ship designs vs. current ship designs if all We use is 2 fleets from FFW?
 
- Remember that ships jumping into system DO NOT arrive together. Even with highly tuned drives and the best computers and software available operated by the most well trained and intuitive astrogators in each fleet, a full fleet WILL arrive over the course of hours on up to a full day. MWM displayed this in Agent of the Imperium so that's how we should wargame this out.
That was CT...

MgT has:
HG, p15, sidebar:
Ships within a fleet can synchronise their jumps so they arrive at their destination within the same combat round but this takes some engineering skill and a lot of processing power.
 
If We do this though, how will that answer any of Our questions about the new ship designs vs. current ship designs if all We use is 2 fleets from FFW?
Fair question.
We're trying to simulate actual OTU warfare with the Mongoose HG2 rules.
Battles are very rarely fought with custom selected forces under optimal conditions with perfect intelligence.
So if we want to prove that the MgHG2 rules need further upgrading, then we have to 'prove' it in a documented sense. The ships present in the 5FW are the best that both sides have to offer for their strategic doctrines and their tactical training. Actually gaming out one of the battles will give us the best examination those ship designs against their intended opponents.
 
Second comment:
If we're trying to figure out if a ship design system works well for a large action, why not use the large actions that have already been detailed and are sitting right in front of us?
 
Fair question.
We're trying to simulate actual OTU warfare with the Mongoose HG2 rules.
Battles are very rarely fought with custom selected forces under optimal conditions with perfect intelligence.
So if we want to prove that the MgHG2 rules need further upgrading, then we have to 'prove' it in a documented sense. The ships present in the 5FW are the best that both sides have to offer for their strategic doctrines and their tactical training. Actually gaming out one of the battles will give us the best examination those ship designs against their intended opponents.
I apologize, but I think you may be using a false assumption. That the ships of the FFW were designed to fight the Zhodani. I have a problem with this assumption. They are also fighting the Vargr, the Aslan, the K'kree, etc.

What We are trying to figure out is if the current fleet designs make sense with how the rules have changed over the years, but the fleet designs have not.
 
- Do not assume that every system operator is a skill level 4 master of their craft. Most systems on military vehicles are operated by 22 year old spacehands with, at most, skill level 2 in their assigned job task. They are supervised by skill level 3 and 4 experts but supervised is a long way from operated. Let's even be more realistic about it. The Zhodani ships have just completed a year-long very intensive training cycle, while Imperial vessels have been operating business as usual. So give the Zho crews skill level 2 and the Impies skill level 1.
Why? Naval crew are as uncommon as fighter pilots or astronauts today, and operate equipment that is mind-boggingly expensive.

Why would I put a raw recruit at the helm of a GCr 100 (≈trillion dollar?) battleship?

How long before you fly a carrier fighter jet in combat today? How long before you fly a B2 in combat?
 
I apologize, but I think you may be using a false assumption. That the ships of the FFW were designed to fight the Zhodani. I have a problem with this assumption. They are also fighting the Vargr, the Aslan, the K'kree, etc.
They were designed to be cool and look like SW Star Destroyers. Combat effectiveness under the rules wasn't on the agenda...

They were barely effective in MgT2'17, but not in CT nor MgT2'22.
 
Why? Naval crew are as uncommon as fighter pilots or astronauts today, and operate equipment that is mind-boggingly expensive.

Why would I put a raw recruit at the helm of a GCr 100 (≈trillion dollar?) battleship?

How long before you fly a carrier fighter jet in combat today? How long before you fly a B2 in combat?
US Naval Aviators on average go through 70 hours of flight training before being assigned to a squadron, and fly an average of 10 - 30 hours a month when not on deployment. That seems to Me to be about Skill Level/1 or 2
 
That is your choice. I have never used the example warships for anything serious.

The presented ships are just examples, not the only ones existing.
Yeah. I rewrite every single ship before they enter My game to better line up with the effectiveness the fluff seems to say that they have, versus what the rules actually say that they have.
 
Balanced wargames generally give you a list of available units, possible upgrades, and limitations on types and numbers, whether in general, or specific scenarios.
 
US Naval Aviators on average go through 70 hours of flight training before being assigned to a squadron, ...
70 flight hours from raw recruit to flying combat missions over S300? I don't believe it...

“It’s completely normal to fly with two different instructors on the same day and five different instructors through a five-day work week, and it’s completely normal for all of those instructors to be from different countries,” U.S. Air Force 1st Lt. Mark Reyes, who finished the 55-week undergraduate pilot training program at ENJJPT on Oct. 18, told Air & Space Forces Magazine recently.
https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-fighter-pilot-school-enjjpt/
 
@MasterGwydion
@AnotherDilbert

The Imperium views two opponents as existential threats: the Zhodani and Solomani. While the Aslan could be a serious problem, they have more of a beef [pun used intentionally] with Sollies and their racist nonsense.
The Vargr are a limited threat... their operations are limited by the charismatic control of their leaders. Kill the flagship and the squadron will dissipate.
We have an open war going on 'now' with ships designed for that conflict. Why not use that conflict and those ships instead of custom-designed Tigress killers? Fleets don't engage with the optimum assets, they engage with the assets they have.
And if the author of the simulation wishes to submit the flaws of High Guard 2 Updated to Mongoose for revision, what better way to get their attention than to chalk it out with their designs in their scenarios?
 
The Zhodani are not going to jump into a system with a points balanced force.
They would use pre-war intel to estimate likely opposition and then send at a minimum five ships per Imperial vessel.

High Guard 2022 is meant to be a core rule book, ie generic. SO how should it be adapted to model combat vessels in the Third Imperium?
Until MgT authors introduced them there were no "ion" weapons in the Third Imperium setting. The maximum acceleration of spacecraft is 6g (well it is is CT and MT, not so much in TNE and T4)
 
70 flight hours from raw recruit to flying combat missions over S300? I don't believe it...


https://www.airandspaceforces.com/air-force-fighter-pilot-school-enjjpt/
That's 70 hours IN TYPE OF AIRCRAFT.
They've got about 300 hours total time.
I think we can agree that an F-5 Tigercat [the US' beginning jet trainer] is a long way away from an F35 Lightning II. Just because you can get it in the air doesn't mean you can fight with it.
However, full credit for the 70 hours figure... Squadron Commanders in War Two were glad as Hell to get a new pilot with a hundred hours in type so that figure rings true.
 
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