Why are warships built without armored bulkheads, EM hardening, and backup power?

[Terry Mixon]

I meant just buying more ships, not making them bigger.

You buy 4 ships with emp hardening, armourered bulkhead and backup power. I buy 5 ships without any of those things. I don't think the 4 ships is ever going to have a good day. (More spinals, or possibly large particle beam bays, is always going to determine the winner.)

(The increased manpower is a valid concern, but my assumption specifically stipulates price as the limiting factor. If something else is the limiting factor, then it might start to make sense again.)

With the -1 to the severity on the crits and immunity to ion weapons, I'm not sure that would be true. Of course, I haven't fought battles like that in game, so I could be totally wrong. Seems like crits on the unprotected side would be worse and take them out faster. We need a professional to battle this out for us!

 

[MasterGwydion]

With the -1 to the severity on the crits and immunity to ion weapons, I'm not sure that would be true. Of course, I haven't fought battles like that in game, so I could be totally wrong. Seems like crits on the unprotected side would be worse and take them out faster. We need a professional to battle this out for us!

Doesn't Radiation Shielding negate the Radiation from Meson Weapons? That seems like it would be valuable.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Doesn't Radiation Shielding negate the Radiation from Meson Weapons? That seems like it would be valuable.

I had that added as well in my builds. It's included in the +25% cost premium. It doubles the amount of radiation blocked from 500 to 1000 and gives the bridge the hardened attribute.

I even added reflec to get a +3 vs lasers.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I had that added as well in my builds. It's included in the +25% cost premium. It doubles the amount of radiation blocked from 500 to 1000 and gives the bridge the hardened attribute.

Right. Isn't that 1,000 of Rad Protection enough to basically ignore Radiation from Weapons? Or am I mistaken?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Right. Isn't that 1,000 of Rad Protection enough to basically ignore Radiation from Weapons? Or am I mistaken?

I don't know.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Maybe @Geir could give an opinion on if 4 warships kitted up with armored bulkheads, EM hardening, radiation shielding, and reflec could stand up to five of the same ships without it. Or even in general how they would handle the battlespace vs ships without it.

 

[Vormaerin]

I meant just buying more ships, not making them bigger.

You buy 4 ships with emp hardening, armourered bulkhead and backup power. I buy 5 ships without any of those things. I don't think the 4 ships is ever going to have a good day. (More spinals, or possibly large particle beam bays, is always going to determine the winner.)

(The increased manpower is a valid concern, but my assumption specifically stipulates price as the limiting factor. If something else is the limiting factor, then it might start to make sense again.)

That's always the issue. We don't actually know anything about the economics or politics of the situation. And we are looking at hard numbers and probabilities in ways that are a lot more concrete than the Imperium would generally have. The way military procurement works IRL has little to do with how it works in a wargame design system

 

[Vormaerin]

For all we know, the lesson of the Battle of Two Suns was that more missile ships trumps tougher bigger ships. Or, at least, that's what some theorist in the Imperial Navy decided and was persuasive about.

 

[Geir]

Maybe @Geir could give an opinion on if 4 warships kitted up with armored bulkheads, EM hardening, radiation shielding, and reflec could stand up to five of the same ships without it. Or even in general how they would handle the battlespace vs ships without it.

Not necessarily the expert, but I have my own biases and would never build a warship without radiation protection. Haven't gamed anything out with the new fleet rules, so I'm not certain how things hold up in the updated High Guard, especially with tricks like a Distant range large PA bay.

I'm uncertain how 'standard' TL variations to spinal weapons work with the default TL bonuses, other than to suggest allowing one or the other, but not both. And really have little confidence in the correct number of meson and nuclear damper shields. Examples of a combat interaction would have been helpful.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Not necessarily the expert, but I have my own biases and would never build a warship without radiation protection. Haven't gamed anything out with the new fleet rules, so I'm not certain how things hold up in the updated High Guard, especially with tricks like a Distant range large PA bay.

I'm uncertain how 'standard' TL variations to spinal weapons work with the default TL bonuses, other than to suggest allowing one or the other, but not both. And really have little confidence in the correct number of meson and nuclear damper shields. Examples of a combat interaction would have been helpful.

Gotcha. We’ve just been building them and I have no battles that they could be put in.

Do you think the armored bulkheads are worth the cost and 10% tonnage cost? I kind of suspect the reduction of crit severity by 1 might make the worth it.

 

[Vormaerin]

Ultimately, the only "fact" we have is that these are the warships that the Imperium chose to build canonically. Why? Who knows?

1) Maybe these ships work with a particular combat doctrine that we aren't privy to. After all, you'll get different results from your High Guard fights depending on the situation you create and tactics you utilize.

2) Maybe there's some political or economic constraint that makes building them this way make sense, such as a shortage of critical components (there's several published adventures built around the idea that certain key military supplies are not as available as the Imperial Navy would like). Or a political treaty limiting certain design options.

3) Maybe a military official or politician influences bad choices by the procurement office.

4) Some other factor.


Or you can decide that the published specs are the published specs and the real specs are classified and include all the fun things you think they should have.

I doubt anyone has played anywhere near enough HG fleet battles to have a good idea of how to "properly" build ships according to those rules. Rules which, btw, explicitly have "ships go boom" as a design goal.

EDIT: Also, if the history of Trillion Credit Squadron is anything to go by, the odds are the "best" way to build fleets is some gimmicky thing no one would expect because these are game rules, not "reality" so are almost certainly possessed of flaws that aren't apparent until played a lot more than they have been.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Not necessarily the expert, but I have my own biases and would never build a warship without radiation protection. Haven't gamed anything out with the new fleet rules, so I'm not certain how things hold up in the updated High Guard, especially with tricks like a Distant range large PA bay.

I'm uncertain how 'standard' TL variations to spinal weapons work with the default TL bonuses, other than to suggest allowing one or the other, but not both. And really have little confidence in the correct number of meson and nuclear damper shields. Examples of a combat interaction would have been helpful.

Do We have an expert on here? with the current rules?

 

[Geir]

Gotcha. We’ve just been building them and I have no battles that they could be put in.

Do you think the armored bulkheads are worth the cost and 10% tonnage cost? I kind of suspect the reduction of crit severity by 1 might make the worth it.

With the wording:
the Severity of any critical hit to the protected space is reduced by -1 (to a minimum of Severity 1),

You have to wonder. It doesn't prevent a Sev 1 critical, which you can likely get from direct combat or accumulated hits, so not useful for that. But if you get critically hit in the same location again, even if Sev 1, then it would become Sev 2. If it doesn't then reduce that to Sev 1 again, there's only marginal utility there - and I don't think that is the intent, so I'd rather invest in more armour up front. Again, an example combat to put the concepts into use would make it easier to answer.

(Note to self: Make sure you clarify this stuff in the Vehicle Handbook... I did already for Critical Hits and Called Shots, but I need to look at other scenarios where the intent is foggy. Plus sometimes just writing out the example lets me figure out that I did something potentially unintentional or likely to be subject to a long thread of posts by people who disagree with one another)

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Sigtrygg]

How would TL stage effects work? Is that an already existing rule for them or something we wish was in the rules for them?

A TL 15 jump 4 drive should have 2 advantages.

 

[Sigtrygg]

There's an intrinsic conflict of interest in Traveller. The NPCs *in game* want tough survivable warships. The game designers want fast, playable space combat that resolves in the same session it starts. Which generally means papier-mâché ships that blow up in a suitably prompt fashion.

Let me know when they write the rules for that, I may buy them. Until then i will stick with my rpg ship combat simulator...

 

[Condottiere]

Burn karma points when the spacecraft gets hit.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It would be interesting to see that played out. I'm not sure it would be as clean.

Two identical-ish TL fleets, but one fleet with a 25% number advantage - you have 4 capital spinal armed ships I have 5, you have 8 cruisers with light spinals I have 10, you have 20 escorts I have 25...

I'll take you on no problem.

 

[Condottiere]

Large particle accelerator bay, and torpedoes.

 

[Sigtrygg]

For all we know, the lesson of the Battle of Two Suns was that more missile ships trumps tougher bigger ships. Or, at least, that's what some theorist in the Imperial Navy decided and was persuasive about.

That particular battle no longer exist, or at least needs an extensive retcon.

"Battle of Two Suns, 1084: The final battle between Imperial forces and the barbarians in the Fourth Frontier War. Losses on both sides were heavy, but the lmperium held the field and the barbarians were unable to continue their advance due to their lengthening supply lines. Had the battle gone the other way, the loss of both Yres and Menorb (the encounter occurring midway between those two locations) would have forced the evacuation of Efate and meant the collapse of the entire coreward end of the Regina subsector.
Allamu (BC-9516)(*) was caught in the van at the Battle of Two Suns, 1084, and withstood over four hours of steady attack before suffering screen failure. Lost with all hands. On 117-1085, the Emperor personally memorialized the name Allamu, which will henceforth be assigned to dreadnaught-class ships and above(**). To date, no ship bearing the name has been constructed.
The battlefield is still posted as a dangerous area, littered with debris, and avoided by interstellar transportation."

* a Kinunir class battlecruiser equipped with a black globe
** the things you notice after 40 years - what do the Imperium have dreadnaught-class ships and above?