I dont understand how ISA players say they dont have enough options. They have more ship selection and therefore a better diversified fleet then any other. Why give them another one. I agree with a previous post that they should lose allies all together and it should be Army of Light only. After all, why should League lose it and ISA keep there.
White Star Enforcer
- Thread starter dag'karlove
- Start date
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Jetbaker said:
Better diversified fleet than any other? Hardly. It is pretty modest. Very capable ships, but a very modest selection until you include League allies. The ISA should keep its allies option. It makes the ISA what it is supposed to be, the umbrella organization of a grand alliance. Perhaps the amount and numbers of League ships could be tweaked some.
Well compared to most if not all other fleets out there, Yes I would say they have a better fleet list. With the current fleet list the ISA have now they can plan and compensate for any fleet in the game. They can be fighter heavy if they want to be, they can be more resilient, etc etc. A short list of ships to choose from are Shadows, Vorlons, Drazi, Abbai. Also having them be the only fleet in the game to now be able to take allies makes them extremly tough and therefore not in need of another ship selection. As we see there is no longer a combined league, why do we need an ISA list with allies as well. ISA has excellent choices at all levels. To allow them to be able to have emines from Narn, throw away fighters with Gaim, etc just makes them the jack of trades army that can function against anything out there. I know that all fleets should be competitive but ISA would be competitive without the allies. To give them another ship as well while neglecting other fleets just seems ridiculous to me.
David said:
That is our point also a larger and better selection than some other fleets :?
its the most diversified fleet list with allies in the entire game. I don''t see why the ISA should get it if the League loose it. It was my understanding that the ISA was a peacekeeping force - do we ever see the ISA co-opt League ships except against the Ancients - (the Army of Light list ) maybe it should be just Minbari allies allowed - which to be honest is already a very powerful option.?
just a game play that I have seen with the ISA is taking the throw away Gaim ships and putting them on a Whitestar as interceptors. I cant begin to explain to you how nasty Whitestars are with dodge and interceptors. Makes them damn near invincible against any weapon system in the game.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Jetbaker said:
Shadows and Vorlons are on the short list? Huh?. New one to me. The amount of allies is pretty small, so their affect isn't all that you might think it could be unless you are playing a fairly large game. I for one and not thinking that the League fleet is on its way out. There is no rational reason for that to happen.
dag'karlove
Mongoose
Well Im glad to see that i spawned some discussion. However, (Pause for effect here) none of the questions were answered. Also For those of you who say the white stars are losing dice they arent. They only loose the dice if you use BOTH weapons systems. Something to think about.
Yes I do think Shadows and Vorlons are on the short list for fleet selection. Shadows have 4 ships for all priority levels and Vorlons have 4 as well. That is pretty small compared to what the ISA gets in comparison. Shadows need a skirmish ship and the Vorlons need a raid ship worse than the ISA needs another ship type.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Jetbaker said:
Sorry. Misinterpreted what you had written. It wasn't clear to me.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
The playtest document is just that, a playtest document. When it becomes "da rules" then I'll worry about it. I'm am simply stating that it would be a silly thing to remove the League fleet, and that they still have a place in the B5 universe.
The "ability of an Ashinta or a Leshath or an Avenger, etc, has no effect on a game" line is provocative on your part, I made no such assertion. What I do assert is that ISA allies are still a very small part of the fleet and while they do add a great deal of flexibility they, as a rule, are not game makers or breakers. Of the three of us who play ISA locally, we almost never use allies. In 5 or 6 raid point games they just seem unnecessary. In 5, 6 or 10 War point games, hell yeah they show up.
As to Shadows and Vorlons. I misread the line which intimiated to me that they were on the allies list. Yes, poorly written, and even more poorly read by me. My head aches from working in the rain for the last two nights. I'll write more when I put in some medicinal scotch.
Note. You probably shouldn't get fired up when Jetbaker and I aren't. So far we've been having a friendly exchange.
"Love, love, kiss, kiss"
Citizen G'Kar, Legend of the Rangers
The Job of the game developers, is to make a game that represents the property it is based on. The Interstellar Alliance would ally with local militias for peace keeping operations. We get one point at the level of the game, to bring in allies. In a five point raid game, that gives me room to bring in quite a few things. Assuming everything is balanced based on its Priority Level, then having allies helps us use more than just an all White Star force, which seems to be popular. Granted I'm no veteran player, but it just seems fluffy to allow us to take allies. If everything remains balanced, it shouldn't be an issue.
Much like Earth has "The Early Years" this should simply be the evolution of the League. Setup three years, The League of Non-Aligned Worlds, The Army of Light, and then the Interstellar Alliance. It is the same force, at different time periods, and different evolutions. The League of Non-Aligned Worlds, as chaired by Jeffrey Sinclair, the Army of Light, as shepherded by Delenn, and the Interstellar Alliance, lead by President John Sheridan.
Granted the league existed before that, but the list wouldn't be any different. The Interstellar Alliance always had allies. If we had variants, or Ranger versions of popular ships that we currently call on as allies... then maybe.
Centauri ships have no place in the Army of Light. They were allied to the Shadows at the time, and wouldn't have supplied any ships to that fight, especially not the size of ship in this playtest list.
Let us work towards a game that both satisfies the fluff, and feel of the series, while at the same time is balanced and fair. 5 Raid Points vs. 5 Raid Points, with each side having an even shot at the win.
That said... in all games, there are flavors that trump other flavors. In Warhammer 40,000 I play Tau, and the right fast assault army just walks all over me. That doesn't mean I am underpowered, or that they are overpowered, it just means that in most games, scissors still beats paper, and paper still beats rock.
Rock is fine right? Nerf paper!
Granted the league existed before that, but the list wouldn't be any different. The Interstellar Alliance always had allies. If we had variants, or Ranger versions of popular ships that we currently call on as allies... then maybe.
Centauri ships have no place in the Army of Light. They were allied to the Shadows at the time, and wouldn't have supplied any ships to that fight, especially not the size of ship in this playtest list.
Let us work towards a game that both satisfies the fluff, and feel of the series, while at the same time is balanced and fair. 5 Raid Points vs. 5 Raid Points, with each side having an even shot at the win.
That said... in all games, there are flavors that trump other flavors. In Warhammer 40,000 I play Tau, and the right fast assault army just walks all over me. That doesn't mean I am underpowered, or that they are overpowered, it just means that in most games, scissors still beats paper, and paper still beats rock.
Rock is fine right? Nerf paper!
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
The fluff is quite clear, national fleets remain and on occasion supplement or support the primary ISA fleet. The AoL fleet list is anemic and rather arbitrary. If you want to restrict what is available for allies I suggest comeing up with a dice table to randomly select ships. You get allies but perhaps not quite what you were expecting.
The League may no longer be extent but the fleets do not disappear nor will anyone want to shed the "for sure" security of having their own ships in exchange for the "maybe" security of depending on the ISA to be there always.
The League may no longer be extent but the fleets do not disappear nor will anyone want to shed the "for sure" security of having their own ships in exchange for the "maybe" security of depending on the ISA to be there always.
My issue with that, is when it comes to buying ships. I just bought two Dag'Kar's for use as allies in an upcoming Battle 5 campaign. So as we redefine what is and is not an ally, the minis I bought are no longer legal.
So from a new player perspective, pulling miniatures out of my fleet, and telling me I can no longer use what I purchased, is obnoxious.
As I understand the early days of the Interstellar Alliance, the Narn's were enlisted by G'Kar to bollster the security forces of Babylon 5. When my local group recomended the Dag'Kar I jumped at the option as it allowed me to represent the Narn's support of Sheridan, in exchange for his help in freeing the Narn Homeworld. That support for Sheridan would not soon be forgotten.
Also - E Mines are neat =)
So would I want Centauri allies? Of course not. Earth Alliance, Narn, and Minbari ships all aided the White Star Fleet at one time or another, and some smattering of League craft as well. I would support a restricted list, maybe nothing above Raid priority, or something similar. You're not likely to find a fleet of Q'Quon cruisers, but a handful of fighters, or smaller craft (did I mention I really like my E Mines?) would make sense.
So from a new player perspective, pulling miniatures out of my fleet, and telling me I can no longer use what I purchased, is obnoxious.
As I understand the early days of the Interstellar Alliance, the Narn's were enlisted by G'Kar to bollster the security forces of Babylon 5. When my local group recomended the Dag'Kar I jumped at the option as it allowed me to represent the Narn's support of Sheridan, in exchange for his help in freeing the Narn Homeworld. That support for Sheridan would not soon be forgotten.
Also - E Mines are neat =)
So would I want Centauri allies? Of course not. Earth Alliance, Narn, and Minbari ships all aided the White Star Fleet at one time or another, and some smattering of League craft as well. I would support a restricted list, maybe nothing above Raid priority, or something similar. You're not likely to find a fleet of Q'Quon cruisers, but a handful of fighters, or smaller craft (did I mention I really like my E Mines?) would make sense.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Hindsight said:
Ministalker
Mongoose
I fully agree. ISA is far much powerfull by itself and now there is the AoL.Mr. Blobby said:
This rule was a good thing back to SFOF time when the ISA was only made of White Stars and Victory Class, but now they really can stand on their own.
Having played against and with ISA in smaller games the ability to take allies is extremely useful and powerful - the ships I listed can change a game dramatically - Leshath against a Minbari fleet, Avenger suddenly gives the White stars fighters as Interceptors, Command and Fleet Carrier for recovery and +1 dogfight for its Nials. Ashinta is very durable, stealthed and can lend W stars Antifighter- then there is the whole Gaim/ Narn allies leaverage.
I don't think it is wrong at present - however if the League can not have allies from other League than the ISA should not either - or perhaps if they do so they have a similar penalty to Iniaitive as sggested in the other thread - a -1 penalty per ship used? A restricted lsit may be ok
If however the League stays as a option then by all means the ISA should keep its allies, if it does with a penalty same should apply to the ISA
I don't think it is wrong at present - however if the League can not have allies from other League than the ISA should not either - or perhaps if they do so they have a similar penalty to Iniaitive as sggested in the other thread - a -1 penalty per ship used? A restricted lsit may be ok
If however the League stays as a option then by all means the ISA should keep its allies, if it does with a penalty same should apply to the ISA
