Which race is
- Thread starter skavendan
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Tzarevitch
Mongoose
As I recall that is correct. The Shadows are one of the older ancients and the vorlons are one of the youngest.
As I recall, Lorien was first then the Triad. Either the Walkers or the Shadows came next. The Kirishiac were the last of the First Ones and I think the Vorlons came just ahead of them.
Tzarevitch
As I recall, Lorien was first then the Triad. Either the Walkers or the Shadows came next. The Kirishiac were the last of the First Ones and I think the Vorlons came just ahead of them.
Tzarevitch
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Odd. I thought that the Shadows and the Vorlons were of an age.
mrambassador1
Mongoose
While the shadows are older the "youth" of the Vorlons doesn't take into account that they are from the future and travelled back to ensure their (our) history. While they came after most of the first ones they had an unspecified time in the future before travelling back.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
mrambassador1 said:
Makes the head ache...
mrambassador1
Mongoose
Start thinking about this sort of stuff too much you will start talking like Zathras.
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
No, not Zathras. Zathras.
mrambassador1
Mongoose
I knew someone would say that
I think the different races choose different paths - the Shadows whilst able to phase, retain corporeal forms and choose not to become immortal - as this is against their Chaotic ideals (at least in D+L).
Apparently humanity or at least some of it, follows the Vorlon path............to become energy beings.
Apparently humanity or at least some of it, follows the Vorlon path............to become energy beings.
mrambassador1
Mongoose
Yeah, the vorlons developed technology to become immortal, but their society has become rigid and unchanging as a result, "They don't respond well to change, and are very unforgiving of mistakes". The Shadows on the other hand espouse rapid and constant change, there is no evidence or indication in the show they are immortal and may have very well rejected the society fixing (halting of change) that comes with immortality.
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
mrambassador1 said:
you say that like it a bad thing. Zathras worry about you.. Zathras thinking, maybe you hit your head when child?.... so much to do, so much to do... never forget, Zathras finite; you are finite; this, is wrong tool.....
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
HappyDaze said:
Maybe. Or maybe it's just that Vorlons inhabit others minds for a while to have their fun
... kinky little bastards for energy beingsWhere does all this stuff come from?
The show had very little to say on either race, AoG had only a little to say on the history of warfare between them (and the order in which they came to be)... is all the rest Darkness and Light?
Specfically...
Where does it say Vorlons are from the future?
Where does it say Vorlons are infertile?
Where does it talk about the shadows being mortal vs vorlons immortal?
Not being snarky, just interested in the sources.
Second question, what do we mean by immortal? We know Vorlons can be killed just like shadows, do we mean unaging? And since we know the shadow queen is different in at least some ways, is she different in longevity?
AoG had made a point of the idea that the kirishiac lords were the only First Ones that didn't become energy beings, so maybe they were wrong there... but shadows did seem able to accompany Morden anywhere without bumping into folks... hmm...
Anyway, thanks for any answers...
Ripple
The show had very little to say on either race, AoG had only a little to say on the history of warfare between them (and the order in which they came to be)... is all the rest Darkness and Light?
Specfically...
Where does it say Vorlons are from the future?
Where does it say Vorlons are infertile?
Where does it talk about the shadows being mortal vs vorlons immortal?
Not being snarky, just interested in the sources.
Second question, what do we mean by immortal? We know Vorlons can be killed just like shadows, do we mean unaging? And since we know the shadow queen is different in at least some ways, is she different in longevity?
AoG had made a point of the idea that the kirishiac lords were the only First Ones that didn't become energy beings, so maybe they were wrong there... but shadows did seem able to accompany Morden anywhere without bumping into folks... hmm...
Anyway, thanks for any answers...
Ripple
mrambassador1
Mongoose
My info comes from the shows. I haven't used AOG stuff.
Vorlons being from the future - This is alluded to in many episodes from all over the show. The most glaring is in the last episode of season 4, the one with the snippets of future history 100, 500 1000 years in the future. At the end of the episode far, far into the future (I think it was 1 million years but can't remember off hand) a human looking man says "we will create the world you wanted for us" then turns into a sphere of energy and enters what looks like a proto vorlon encounter suit.
The vorlons have used time travel before (granted courtesy of the great machine on epsilon) to send B4 back in time to when they really needed it. Time travel seems to be part of their repetiour of tactics, at least they seem familiar with the technique.
There are other more sublte references and just the pervading mood of the vorlons. They seem not just interested in beating the shadows, but in a certain course of events playing out, they often speak of things to come, "if you go to Z'ha'dum you will die". They seem to know of things that will happen or even should/must happen. Dukhat said the vorlons told him the Minbari will encounter a race known as humans, they will be very important in the coming shadow war, how did they know humans would be important. Kosh was very interested in Sheridan the moment he arrived on B5, he began training sheridan to fight legends. Why so interested in sheridan, he was a good officer and did brilliantly in the minbari war, but he wasn't that legendary that the vorlons should think he was the one and only man to lead the fight against the shadows. It seemed as if they knew not what he had done, but what he was going to do. When Sheridan was captured by the Streib he dreamed of Kosh who said "We have always been here". The Vorlons are very cryptic, but have you ever noticed that if it ever comes out what they mean, they mean exactly what they say. "If you go to Z'ha'Dum you will die" sounds very forboding but that is exactly what Kosh meant, simply and exactly that. "When you reach the end return to the begining", if you look at things the vorlon say and do thinking they are from the future, much of what they say and do makes more sense, and they almost say exactly what they are doing.
I may be wrong but next time you watch the DVD's have "the Vorlons are us from the future" in the back of your mind, so much of what they say and do take on an even clearer meaning. It almost seems they have tried influencing the future/past several times, sometimes it goes one way, sometimes the other, some things may always turn out or at least start a certain way. Sinclair said he had to go back with B4 "I have to go back because I have always gone back" would seem to indicate the several timelines the vorlons have seen he is always valen, while some other things don't alway's go the same way, B5 could have been destroyed at several points in history and in some timelines did, Ivanova's message of B5 being destroyed in Babylon Squared. It seems time isn't set, some things can be changed but some things always seem to happen.
Marcus once jokingly said Kosh was Merlin, "they said he aged backwards and could fortell the future by remembering it", while just a joke he may have been more right than he knew JMS often seemed to like to hide big things in plain sight. As I said I may be wrong, but watch the shows again with that in mind, alot of what the vorlons do make more sense this way.
Vorlons being from the future - This is alluded to in many episodes from all over the show. The most glaring is in the last episode of season 4, the one with the snippets of future history 100, 500 1000 years in the future. At the end of the episode far, far into the future (I think it was 1 million years but can't remember off hand) a human looking man says "we will create the world you wanted for us" then turns into a sphere of energy and enters what looks like a proto vorlon encounter suit.
The vorlons have used time travel before (granted courtesy of the great machine on epsilon) to send B4 back in time to when they really needed it. Time travel seems to be part of their repetiour of tactics, at least they seem familiar with the technique.
There are other more sublte references and just the pervading mood of the vorlons. They seem not just interested in beating the shadows, but in a certain course of events playing out, they often speak of things to come, "if you go to Z'ha'dum you will die". They seem to know of things that will happen or even should/must happen. Dukhat said the vorlons told him the Minbari will encounter a race known as humans, they will be very important in the coming shadow war, how did they know humans would be important. Kosh was very interested in Sheridan the moment he arrived on B5, he began training sheridan to fight legends. Why so interested in sheridan, he was a good officer and did brilliantly in the minbari war, but he wasn't that legendary that the vorlons should think he was the one and only man to lead the fight against the shadows. It seemed as if they knew not what he had done, but what he was going to do. When Sheridan was captured by the Streib he dreamed of Kosh who said "We have always been here". The Vorlons are very cryptic, but have you ever noticed that if it ever comes out what they mean, they mean exactly what they say. "If you go to Z'ha'Dum you will die" sounds very forboding but that is exactly what Kosh meant, simply and exactly that. "When you reach the end return to the begining", if you look at things the vorlon say and do thinking they are from the future, much of what they say and do makes more sense, and they almost say exactly what they are doing.
I may be wrong but next time you watch the DVD's have "the Vorlons are us from the future" in the back of your mind, so much of what they say and do take on an even clearer meaning. It almost seems they have tried influencing the future/past several times, sometimes it goes one way, sometimes the other, some things may always turn out or at least start a certain way. Sinclair said he had to go back with B4 "I have to go back because I have always gone back" would seem to indicate the several timelines the vorlons have seen he is always valen, while some other things don't alway's go the same way, B5 could have been destroyed at several points in history and in some timelines did, Ivanova's message of B5 being destroyed in Babylon Squared. It seems time isn't set, some things can be changed but some things always seem to happen.
Marcus once jokingly said Kosh was Merlin, "they said he aged backwards and could fortell the future by remembering it", while just a joke he may have been more right than he knew JMS often seemed to like to hide big things in plain sight. As I said I may be wrong, but watch the shows again with that in mind, alot of what the vorlons do make more sense this way.
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Well personally Id always assumed it was a case of humans following a similar evolutionary path in the long run (in fact JMS said as much at one point, I cant remember the exact quote but in some post he made somewhere he said something along the lines of several species eventually make it to the vorlonesuque energy level, the humans first, then the Minbari, not sure if he mentioned the centauri but I recall him saying the Narn never quite get there).
So Id have to say though its a nice idea, I dont think the Vorlons are meant to be us from the future. Thats not to say they havent travelled ahead at any point to see what happens hence their prophetic knowledge to an extent (though Id say most of their prophesies are more just a case of vast understanding of the way things work in the universe...)
Still its a nice idea
As for age, it goes:
Lorien's Race, Triad, Walkers, Shadows, Mindriders, Vorlons <-> Torvalus, Krishiak
I believe (not sure whether the Vorlons came before or after the Torvalus).
The Krishiak are actually ALOT younger than any of the other 'first ones' and are in fact not really true first ones, they bascially evolved long after them and rose to similar technological levels before they came to the other races notice (and caused all kinds of trouble) in that they were very advanced by the time they invented hyperspace engines. In fact this is the reason the Vorlons then seeded jumpgates all over the place, they figured that the level of advancement needed to operate/build jump technology was ALOT lower than that needed to INVENT it, and thus new races would enter the galactic scene at a much lower level of development (before they were a true threat, the Krishiak basically tried to take over the galaxy until the rest of the first ones beat the crap out of them). AoG's Wars of the Ancients book is a really interesting read if you can find it (and probably the most extensive resource on the first ones out there).
So Id have to say though its a nice idea, I dont think the Vorlons are meant to be us from the future. Thats not to say they havent travelled ahead at any point to see what happens hence their prophetic knowledge to an extent (though Id say most of their prophesies are more just a case of vast understanding of the way things work in the universe...)
Still its a nice idea
As for age, it goes:
Lorien's Race, Triad, Walkers, Shadows, Mindriders, Vorlons <-> Torvalus, Krishiak
I believe (not sure whether the Vorlons came before or after the Torvalus).
The Krishiak are actually ALOT younger than any of the other 'first ones' and are in fact not really true first ones, they bascially evolved long after them and rose to similar technological levels before they came to the other races notice (and caused all kinds of trouble) in that they were very advanced by the time they invented hyperspace engines. In fact this is the reason the Vorlons then seeded jumpgates all over the place, they figured that the level of advancement needed to operate/build jump technology was ALOT lower than that needed to INVENT it, and thus new races would enter the galactic scene at a much lower level of development (before they were a true threat, the Krishiak basically tried to take over the galaxy until the rest of the first ones beat the crap out of them). AoG's Wars of the Ancients book is a really interesting read if you can find it (and probably the most extensive resource on the first ones out there).
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