When animals attack

slaughterj

Mongoose
Animal descriptions often list 1 Claw for an attack, but then say 2 Claws, 1 Bite, or some such under Full Attack - does this mean animals get 3 attacks total, 1 bite and 2 claws, or are the two claws a single attack? If they are 2 separate claw attacks, what attack bonus are they at, the same?
 

tagnetti

Mongoose
I think it would be one bite, 2 claws for full, I had a panther attack and that is what he did, The bite was +6 and both claws were at +1. They were also Finesse going for open spots ( so I added DEX as modifier and if you roll high enough that the attack roll is >= the opponents DV+DR then you bypass the armor all together.

I think I said that right, hope that helps
 

slaughterj

Mongoose
tagnetti said:
I think it would be one bite, 2 claws for full, I had a panther attack and that is what he did, The bite was +6 and both claws were at +1. They were also Finesse going for open spots ( so I added DEX as modifier and if you roll high enough that the attack roll is >= the opponents DV+DR then you bypass the armor all together.

I think I said that right, hope that helps

Thus, the panther gets 3 attacks, bite at +6, claw at +1, and another claw at +1?
 

sanseveria

Mongoose
This is all assuming the animal takes a full attack action. If he moves at all (more than 5') he's limited to 1 attack only.
 

Johannixx

Mongoose
sanseveria said:
This is all assuming the animal takes a full attack action. If he moves at all (more than 5') he's limited to 1 attack only.

Most of the big cats have an ability that lets them make a full attack if they charge.
 

Iron_Chef

Mongoose
Johannixx said:
sanseveria said:
This is all assuming the animal takes a full attack action. If he moves at all (more than 5') he's limited to 1 attack only.

Most of the big cats have an ability that lets them make a full attack if they charge.

And where is the Armor Piercing score claw/bite attacks for most animals?
 

Yuan-Ti

Mongoose
Iron_Chef said:
Johannixx said:
sanseveria said:
This is all assuming the animal takes a full attack action. If he moves at all (more than 5') he's limited to 1 attack only.

Most of the big cats have an ability that lets them make a full attack if they charge.

And where is the Armor Piercing score claw/bite attacks for most animals?

I am thinking most claws would have AP 0. The larger animals, with powerful jaws, like "lions and tigers and bears, oh my!", probably would have 1 or 2 AP plus STR mod when melee attacking... Obviously, for mystical beasts, you might rule that a dragon has extra sharp or even magical claws, granting higher AP bonuses.
 

argo

Mongoose
Natural Attacks (attacks like "claw" "bite" and "slam" that creatures make with their limbs but not including "unarmed" attacks or attacks made with the "improved unarmed strike" feat) work a little differently than normal attacks. They are designed to have a more favorable progression than normal itterative attacks, one of the little perks that monsters get.

First, a monster will have a "primary attack form". This may be a single attack such as "1 bite" or several attacks such as "2 claws" but you will know which attack routine is its promary because it will be at the highest attack bonus. All primary attacks are made at the same bonus regardless of how many there are (ie: there is no "off hand penalty" as there is no such thing as a off hand natural attack) The rest of its attacks, if any, will be "secondary attacks". All secondary attacks are made at -5 regardless of how many there are, unless the creature has the Multiattack feat in which case they are made at -2 . A creature never gets to make itterative natural attacks regardless of how high its BAB is. Primary attack damage gets full strength bonus while secondary damage gets half strength bonus.

On a Standard Attack (ie: the creature moved and attacked in the same round) the creature makes 1 attack from its primary attack routine at its primary attack bonus. It makes only one attack even if its routine is something like "2 claws". On a Full Attack a creature makes all the attacks listed at the bonus listed.

So, on a Standard Attack a Panther makes one Bite at +6 and on a Full Attack it makes one Bite at +6 and two claws at +1 each. Meanwhile a Stygian Warhorse can, on a Standard Attack, make one Hoof at +7, and on a Full Attack can make two Hoof attacks at +7 each and one Bite at +5 (it has Multiattack). Got it?

As for the AP value of natural attacks. The Bestiary section seems to be a bit spotty on the inclusion of such things. However the trend seems to be that claw, slam and most other natural attacks don't have an AP value and thus can't penetrate armor regardless of strength (probably a good idea considering the strength of some monsters) while most Bite attacks do get AP. I think that makes sense, claws strike at the armored midsection while bites tear at the throat/joints.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I was going through the SRD & converting all the animals. The hardest parts are determing what feat to replace Weapon Finesse with (Weapon Focus if 2HD or larger, or else Toughness or Alertness or even a Skill Focus seem apropriate) or what value to assign AP. In the Conan Core book, Boars get 6 AP for Gores, Bears get 9 AP for Bites, and Sabre-toothes (-teeth?) get 12 AP for Bites. Since we mostly have a progression of 3's, I broke it down this way: Medium-sized Gores have AP 6, Large Gores or Bites- AP 9, Huge Gores or Bites AP 12. Any critter that uses finesse attacks loses the AP (therefore eliminating most snakes). A sabre-tooth has the equivalent of Improved Natural Attack, therefore qualifying it for the Huge AP. Looking through the SRD, that leaves Elephants & some fantastic animals (Kraken) with gore or bites of AP 12. Your average Lion, Bear, Tiger has a bite of AP 9. And then any medium-sized animal with a gore attack would get AP 6 but Boars are it.

Now, if you look athe Fantastical section of the Bestiary, all the Garagantuan Elementals get AP. Probably because it just doesn't matter if you're wearing Plate or Leather when they sit on you. Humanoid-like monsters (which I'm throwing in the Grey Ape from the animals section) may get some kind of AP for what may be a rending atack. Grey Apes gore at AP 4, Ghouls bite at AP 4. Therefore maybe being Medium or Large humanoid & having a more savage attack qualifies you for that AP 4.

Think this even close to how Mongoose figured it?
 
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