When Amu's go BOOM!

[Da Boss]

I don't undertsand the question.

If you have it can you use your dodge trait to attempt to avoid some / all of the damage from a "ramming" skin dancer - Ramming says no - Skin dancing does not say........

oh and I did put all these on rulemasters but never answered..............

I will admit the rule doesn't say, but that doesn't pass the smell check. The ship just Crashed into you. That's why it's dead. Kind of hard to dodge something that already hit you.
Unless you want to open it up and say that a successful dodge means the skindancer is still alive.
Or you could dodge the skindance attempt. Then roll to see if you dodged Into the dancer or away...

No. That's a new rule altogether. Be interesting to try as a house rule...

Actually thats what I did in the version we use in our campaign - if you dodge a Skindancing / ramming fighter its still alive. But then apart from fighters - Skindancing is a special order which is easier to attempt against big ships, harder against agile/ SM and not as easier to ram. It also clarifies the what happens if you try to skin dance a ship that has not moved.

Dodging usually negates part of a hit not the full hit (except as noted above with fighters hitting) - hence my - can you roll with the impac and reduce the damage thought...........

 

[Taran]

Dodging usually negates part of a hit not the full hit (except as noted above with fighters hitting) - hence my - can you roll with the impac and reduce the damage thought...........

I would say No. You can't wait till you see he's going to fail the attempt and hit you. You have to dodge the Attempt to skindance. Skindancing, by definition, puts the ship so close to your hull that either your weapons cannot depress far enough to fire on him, or he's moving so fast across their arc that your gunners have no time to fire. Or both. So he already Looks like he's going to collide when he starts the attempt.

"So you Dodge the attempt. Pass the Dodge and negate the attempt roll. Roll again and see if you dodged INTO him or away. If the former, roll for damage as for failed Skindance. If the latter, both ships, no damage."
It's really the only logical application of Dodge to the Skindance.


And I still don't see why you would use Skindance as an easy Ram. Especially in a Campaign (except for fighters). Completely losing a ship for a return of (max) 10AD, no special. Is not a good trade when that WS or BS can probably get off the map and escape intact to return at a later battle as opposed to being replaced out of your RRs...

 

[Burger]

And I still don't see why you would use Skindance as an easy Ram.

In a non-campaign game. You have a White Star that has suffered a 6-4 crit. It can never fire its weapons again. It only has 1 damage left, and will be killed next turn by that Frazi flight that has been following it all game. What you gonna do with it?

 

[Da Boss]

yep - seen it both camapign adn non camapign - as skin dancing takes place before firing - you can do something with a ship that is going to die

White stars on 1 damage and 1 crew and with a Liati about to finish it - er - free ram

ISA ships that have lost dodge and/or AA and are going to die..........

as Burger said "why would you not?" its easy and even if you succeed you are pretty safe - win - win situation..............too good as it is written at present

 

[Nomad]

I'm sort of responsible for this thread. I was standing around heckling at Hiff's game and suggested (mischevously, TBH) to his opponent that he try ramming something with his crippled Corumai...well, he did.

So the CQ 6 Corumai easily passed its test and kamikazi'ed a Drakh Strike Cruiser. A couple of turns later a Kaliva needed a '6' to do the same thing to Hiff's Amu, and needless to say, it made the roll.

Whoops. Er, sorry, Hiff.

It did seem a bit much. Maybe Narns vs Centauri (a warm and genuine hatred) or EA vs Minbari (simple desperation) or the Dilgar vs anyone at all (nutters) but otherwise ramming should not be common or easy.

EDIT - That said, the Brakiri player did choose to sacrifice a CQ6 War PL fleet flagship, and rolling a '6' just when he need it with the Kaliva was a bit flukey.

A fix might be to delay the resolution of ramming damage until after firing.

If a ship makes the CQ to ram during the Movement phase, place her in contact with the intended victim.

However, the damage is not assesed until after firing - giving the ramee a chance to destroy the (already crippled) rammer before impact.

As for Skin Dancing, I'm not really familiar with this (though I have had Blue Stars try and do this to my fanheads before now). You could say that a failing Skin Dancer hits its target at a very shallow, grazing angle, therefore causing only superficial damage while destroying itself. Simply a fudge to make an (IMHO) abusive tactic less attractive.

 

[Taran]

And I still don't see why you would use Skindance as an easy Ram.

In a non-campaign game. You have a White Star that has suffered a 6-4 crit. It can never fire its weapons again. It only has 1 damage left, and will be killed next turn by that Frazi flight that has been following it all game. What you gonna do with it?

1 damage? Ram.
Frazi? Means Narn. Means mostly Hull6 targets. 10AD nothing special on a failed skindance or 5AD TD SAP plus the 5 AD nothing special for when I go BOOM.
Not a tough choice.

 

[Da Boss]

Although it still remains - I have seen people attempt and complete skin dance rams and never manage a normal ram - which I find more telling........ I don;t want to loose Skin dance just make it what it is intended to be a special form of attack run.............

 

[Burger]

1 damage? Ram.

1 crew, lost flight computer? Can't ram. Even if you can, ramming is muc harder.

 

[Da Boss]

And of course if you skeleton crewed - to CQ - which makes it easier to "fail" the skin dance roll and ram......... whilst you can't normally ram - no special actions............

Which would you do then - oh wait its not actually a choice as only one is possible

 

[Da Boss]

And I still don't see why you would use Skindance as an easy Ram.

In a non-campaign game. You have a White Star that has suffered a 6-4 crit. It can never fire its weapons again. It only has 1 damage left, and will be killed next turn by that Frazi flight that has been following it all game. What you gonna do with it?

1 damage? Ram.
Frazi? Means Narn. Means mostly Hull6 targets. 10AD nothing special on a failed skindance .

As I read it its 10AD double damage?

 

[Taran]

nope. Ships get a number of AD equal to their starting damage with no weapons traits. If it was DD, it'd be more of a debate for me.

...wait. Just broke out the book to confirm. You may be right. It's another of those poorly worded passages.

 

[Burger]

"Roll 1 AD with Double Damage if the attacking craft was a fighter, and as many AD as its starting Damage score, if it was a ship"

Could be interpreted both ways.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Dodging usually negates part of a hit not the full hit (except as noted above with fighters hitting) - hence my - can you roll with the impac and reduce the damage thought...........

I would say No. You can't wait till you see he's going to fail the attempt and hit you. You have to dodge the Attempt to skindance. Skindancing, by definition, puts the ship so close to your hull that either your weapons cannot depress far enough to fire on him, or he's moving so fast across their arc that your gunners have no time to fire. Or both. So he already Looks like he's going to collide when he starts the attempt.

"So you Dodge the attempt. Pass the Dodge and negate the attempt roll. Roll again and see if you dodged INTO him or away. If the former, roll for damage as for failed Skindance. If the latter, both ships, no damage."
It's really the only logical application of Dodge to the Skindance.

Except that Dodge is a handwave for the manouvrability of the ship. Given that you're dodging AD hits, it can be handwaved as the ship manouvring to try and lessen the blow if nothing else.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Dodging usually negates part of a hit not the full hit (except as noted above with fighters hitting) - hence my - can you roll with the impac and reduce the damage thought...........

I would say No. You can't wait till you see he's going to fail the attempt and hit you. You have to dodge the Attempt to skindance. Skindancing, by definition, puts the ship so close to your hull that either your weapons cannot depress far enough to fire on him, or he's moving so fast across their arc that your gunners have no time to fire. Or both. So he already Looks like he's going to collide when he starts the attempt.

"So you Dodge the attempt. Pass the Dodge and negate the attempt roll. Roll again and see if you dodged INTO him or away. If the former, roll for damage as for failed Skindance. If the latter, both ships, no damage."
It's really the only logical application of Dodge to the Skindance.

Except that Dodge is a handwave for the manouvrability of the ship. Given that you're dodging AD hits, it can be handwaved as the ship manouvring to try and lessen the blow if nothing else.

The idea of 'dodging' into someone is kinda... dumb. Its a successful dodge roll, wouldn't that mean you successfully dodged away from and not into the attacker? It would be like successfully failing.

And of course if you skeleton crewed - to CQ - which makes it easier to "fail" the skin dance roll and ram......... whilst you can't normally ram - no special actions............

Which would you do then - oh wait its not actually a choice as only one is possible

That just kinda makes the case for a broken rule/rules change right there.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

I would say No. You can't wait till you see he's going to fail the attempt and hit you. You have to dodge the Attempt to skindance. Skindancing, by definition, puts the ship so close to your hull that either your weapons cannot depress far enough to fire on him, or he's moving so fast across their arc that your gunners have no time to fire. Or both. So he already Looks like he's going to collide when he starts the attempt.

"So you Dodge the attempt. Pass the Dodge and negate the attempt roll. Roll again and see if you dodged INTO him or away. If the former, roll for damage as for failed Skindance. If the latter, both ships, no damage."
It's really the only logical application of Dodge to the Skindance.

Except that Dodge is a handwave for the manouvrability of the ship. Given that you're dodging AD hits, it can be handwaved as the ship manouvring to try and lessen the blow if nothing else.

The idea of 'dodging' into someone is kinda... dumb. Its a successful dodge roll, wouldn't that mean you successfully dodged away from and not into the attacker? It would be like successfully failing.

Look at it like the dodge roll representing turning and/or rolling the ship so it's a glancing blow rather than a full-on collision.