What would you do to improve/change MGT combat system?

[apoc527]

Hello all,

I've been browsing these forums for quite a while and I've seen a number (though by no means an overwhelming number) of posts that tend to express some level of dissatisfaction with the MGT combat mechanics. I'm about to start a game where, frankly, combat will play a heavy role.

I'd like to pick the brains of the forum for improvements to the MGT combat system and/or to at least identify the weak areas so that I can potentially come up with my own fixes, if necessary.

I have not really played that many versions of Traveller (limited to GURPS, T20, and MGT--not exactly the classic set), so I'm wondering what people like about those versions compared to MGT.

Let me set out two points so that I don't get tons of posts addressing them:

1. The damage system (including the armor mechanics and numbers) are more or less fine with me and my group. I have no need to mess with the damage of weapons and I like the rules presented in CSC for alternate forms of ammo, etc. So, this aspect of the system is not broken for me. Similarly, the exact numbers used for primitive armor, broadsword damage, etc. also don't concern me that much. I can make tweaks like that easily enough. I'm looking for more major concerns.

2. I like the Significant Action/Minor Action mechanic and definitely don't want an "action point" system that requires insane bookkeeping. Ultimately this will be an RPG, not a tactical combat simulation. (This is not to say that I'm not open to other, less drastic modifications of the action system.)

So with those too caveats, what would you change about the combat system?

 

[rust]

While I have a couple of problems with the space combat system, this is
probably not what you are asking.

As for the character combat system, I do not see any serious problems.
I think it is a bit more complicated than I would need it for my campaign,
but it seems to work well enough, especially with the optional rule that the
damage from the first hit does not have to be subtracted from Endurance.

So, as far as I can judge it without too many combat scenes played, I see
no need for any major modifications, only for some spot rules for unusual
situations here and there.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'll start with the beginning. Initiative. I don't mind the possibility of a slower, less experienced character somehow 'getting the drop' on a faster (higher dex) more experienced (higher skill level - which is not even part of the initiative roll) character. I however do not think the single, breaking the odds random roll should last throughout an entire combat nor do I think ambushers should get an automatic 12 for their roll for the entire combat.

So, since I have ideas but none tested, I'd like to see a good alternative to initiative that someone has used and likes. Or even alternatives that didn't work for you and why.

 

[Rick]

I'll start with the beginning. Initiative. I don't mind the possibility of a slower, less experienced character somehow 'getting the drop' on a faster (higher dex) more experienced (higher skill level - which is not even part of the initiative roll) character. I however do not think the single, breaking the odds random roll should last throughout an entire combat nor do I think ambushers should get an automatic 12 for their roll for the entire combat.

Just a very quick reply to the last bit - looking at the rules for initiative, it mentions prepared characters getting a 12 for their roll. Imho, this should only last for the first round, as after that point, surprise has been lost, and the initiative should be rolled for as normal.

 

[Stainless]

Carrying out a per-round initiative role (including carryover DMs) should be a simple and pretty uncontroversial houserule.

I have no further specifics other to say that I would change the autofire rule (it seemes too underpowered to me) and I would seriously tweak the damage and armour values (I know you're fine with them). I beleive Golan2072 did some house rules to that effect some time ago. Golan, are you there?

 

[apoc527]

I actually have some house rules for Burst and Autofire that I like. Basically, you get 1/2/3 hits for Effect 0/1-5/6+ on each pair of auto dice or with the burst attack. Additionally, on Autofire, you roll an additional 2d6 as a totally normal attack. So, for an Auto 4 weapon, you can potentially hit up to 7 times.

 

[Sturn]

These probably won't be helpful to the original poster, but I used to extensive modifications. One hasn't been tested yet.

For initiative, I have fallen back on a system more similar to the original rough draft Mongoose Traveller system. I won't get into it because this was discussed ad nauseum long ago. I used the past discussion ideas to create a system that I find great for myself. But, it's more of a total modification then a house rule.

If anyone recalls past posts of mine, I've been trying to come up with a character wound system more to my liking. After trying multiple ideas, I've finally settled on what I think is a realistic wound system that is still simple enough to use. I haven't play-tested it yet however. Not going to post anything here since it might derail the original poster's thread.

I also have notes (posted on this forum before) on a morale system that includes benefits for veterans of combat. It makes changes to the Leadership and Tactics skills.

I too would prefer a change to autofire. I have some notes, but haven't settled on anything new.

 

[srogerscat]

Possible autofire change:

Give an autofire attack a bonus to hit equal to the autofire rating, causing an additional hit for every two points rolled over the hit number.

 

[apoc527]

These probably won't be helpful to the original poster, but I used to extensive modifications. One hasn't been tested yet.

For initiative, I have fallen back on a system more similar to the original rough draft Mongoose Traveller system. I won't get into it because this was discussed ad nauseum long ago. I used the past discussion ideas to create a system that I find great for myself. But, it's more of a total modification then a house rule.

If anyone recalls past posts of mine, I've been trying to come up with a character wound system more to my liking. After trying multiple ideas, I've finally settled on what I think is a realistic wound system that is still simple enough to use. I haven't play-tested it yet however. Not going to post anything here since it might derail the original poster's thread.

I also have notes (posted on this forum before) on a morale system that includes benefits for veterans of combat. It makes changes to the Leadership and Tactics skills.

I too would prefer a change to autofire. I have some notes, but haven't settled on anything new.

Actually this is exactly the kind of stuff I'm looking for. So please, post away, unless you have additional reasons not to share (but I encourage you to do so!).

I'll let everyone know how my autofire house rules work. I'll post again with my "attack house rules." I have playtested most of these rules and they worked for my group. It really gave you a feel of extreme danger, just like real life, where people shoot far more than 1 round in a six second period.

 

[apoc527]

These are my house rules for fire modes and melee attacks. When I say "approved," I mean "by MY players" not Mongoose obviously.

Burst Fire House Rules FULLY TESTED AND APPROVED
Instead of adding to damage, burst fire allows one of two fire modes: wide burst or narrow burst. A Wide Burst grants a +1 DM on the attack and Effect adds to damage, but no additional rounds may hit. A Narrow Burst grants no DM, and a number of rounds hit and inflict damage based on the Effect (0 = 1 hit, 1-5 = 2 hits, 6+=3 hits), but Effect is only added to damage for the first hit. Regardless of fire mode, a Burst uses up 3-4 rounds. Weapons with Auto 8+ that are capable of Burst Fire may make an extremely high rate of fire Burst Attack granting a +3 DM on a Wide Burst and a +1 DM on a Narrow Burst, with the same number of rounds hitting. Recoil is increased by 1 for this attack.

Burst fire has no capped skill and no limit on the Aiming or sighting aids DMs.

Autofire House Rules MOSTLY TESTED (slight variation, but the original was too weak, so this is the fix)
Roll 2d6 plus all normal DMs with full skill (this is the first few shots before recoil really kicks in). Then roll a number of dice equal to the weapon’s Auto Rating. You may pair the dice as you see fit. These attacks are capped at Skill 3-Effective Recoil. Effective Recoil = Recoil not canceled by Str DM, minimum value is 0. This attack expends 3xAuto Rating of ammunition. At Skill 4+, you expend only 2xAuto Rating rounds of ammunition per attack. DMs from Aiming and all sighting aids apply only to the first 2d6 thrown (not Auto dice). Additionally, if the first skill task fails, then all Auto dice have a -2 DM.

Note that some weapons use special rules for ammo expenditure—those always take precedence.

Effect does not add to damage for any attacks, but Effect 1-5 on any given pair of dice results in one additional hit that is rolled normally. Effect 6+ on an given pair of dice results in 2 additional hits. No more hits can be scored than the number of rounds fired. Recoil is increased by 50% or +2, whichever is greater, for this attack (otherwise Burst Fire has higher recoil).

Design Note: While brutal, this is necessary to keep Autofire relevant in the face of Burst Fire and Rapid Fire.

Example: Sgt. Jones has a SCAR-H rifle (Auto 4, 3d6+3 damage, Recoil 2) and really needs to kill the snakeman preparing to hose down his buddies with a plasma rifle. Sgt. Jones has Gun Combat (Rifle) 3, Strength 11 (+1 DM), and using his red-dot sight, Aims before firing, receiving a +2 DM on his first 2d6 roll, which is a 9 total. He then rolls 4d6 with his skill capped at 2 due to recoil and gets 4, 5, 2, 3. He pairs the 4,3 and the 5,2 and with a 2 skill receives four more hits. The snakeman now has to absorb five 7.62mm rounds or expire messily.

Suppressive Fire UNTESTED
Consider giving a +2 DM due to EASE of hitting cover and stuff around the target, rather than the target himself. After all, you are merely trying to get close enough to scare him. Surely this is eaiser than actually HITTING your target.

Rapid Fire TESTED AND APPROVED
Most modern semiautomatic weapons can be fired rapidly in a 6 second combat round. This method is not particularly accurate (unless very skilled) but is an effective way of getting multiple rounds into a target. Bolt-action or pump-action weapons may not use this rule.
Rules: You may fire a semiautomatic weapon once per level of skill by using both your significant and minor action on the attack (counting skill 0 as a level). The first shot is normal, but each subsequent shot has a cumulative -1 DM and Effect is not added to damage. Further, all subsequent shots are penalized by -1 for each point of Recoil in excess of Strength DM. Roll separately for each attack. If you switch targets, you receive an additional -2 DM. If you Aimed, that DM applies only to the first shot.

Example: Wild Bill has Gun Combat (slug pistol) 4. His Strength is 10 (+1 DM) and his Dexterity is 12 (+2) and he’s firing a heavy revolver (Recoil 2). He can fire up to 5 shots in a single round with DMs of +6/+4/+2/+0/-2 (not including range, conditions, or reactions).

Multi-attack in Melee UNTESTED
Similar to the above Rapid Fire rule for semi-automatic weapons, characters with high skill can attack multiple times per round in melee combat at a progressive penalty.
Melee (Unarmed) gains a bonus attack at a progressive -1 DM per additional attack at Skill 2, 3, and 4.
Melee (Blade) and (Blunt) gain a bonus attack at a progressive -1 DM per additional attack at Skill 2 and 4 with an additional -1 DM per point of “Effective Heft.” Effective Heft is calculated as Effective Recoil.

 

[srogerscat]

Apoc527,

Hey, I like those, I really do. I have my own mods to the combat rules (no REAL game master runs a rules as written campaign) but you cover some angles that I haven't. I will give your stuff a try.

 

[Jame Rowe]

1.) Improve weapon damage. Body pistols do 2d6 damage, pistols and laser pistols do 3d6, gauss pistols rifles and laser carbines do 4d6, gauss rifles shotguns and laser rifles do 5d6. Increase heavy weapon damage to match - i.e. an autocannon does 6d6 damage.

Yes, I know that makes combat more lethal. That Is The EnTiRe Point.

2.) Improve armor ratings, e.g. jack gives 3 points of protection and cloth gives 10. That way armor has some worthwhile protection against the better damage.

 

[apoc527]

1.) Improve weapon damage. Body pistols do 2d6 damage, pistols and laser pistols do 3d6, gauss pistols rifles and laser carbines do 4d6, gauss rifles shotguns and laser rifles do 5d6. Increase heavy weapon damage to match - i.e. an autocannon does 6d6 damage.

Yes, I know that makes combat more lethal. That Is The EnTiRe Point.

2.) Improve armor ratings, e.g. jack gives 3 points of protection and cloth gives 10. That way armor has some worthwhile protection against the better damage.

I have found that with the Rapid Fire house rules that I use above, that lethality really isn't an issue. Sure, an advanced laser rifle already does 5d6+3, but when you can shoot the badguy three times in a round, it really adds up quick. It's stunningly deadly, but I think not particularly unrealistic (unless you want to say that laser rifles have to charge up significantly between shots).

 

[TC]

Gonna swipe your modified melee rules, and wring em out a bit. I've been non-plussed by the hand to hand feel of traveller going back to mega, didn't have any issue before then in classic.

 

[rinku]

One rule I'd consider changing is the parrying one. In Classic you didn't have to actively declare parrying to get your skill applied as a -DM to your opponent. It was one of the neatest concepts of the system. In what way does leaving yourself wide open improve your chance of suceeding in melee combat anyway?

Also, perhaps give a +DM for an unskilled opponent? Equal to their unskilled penalty, perhaps (which would allow JoT to have an effect)?

One thing I would definitely address is the dumbing down of the attack mods. In effect all melee weapons and animal attacks come down to "large blade" or "small blade", and too many dissimilar weapons are lumped in together. Was it really too much effort to distinguish body pistols from laser pistols??

 

[zero]

The only thing I would modify would be the surprise attack rules, PCs I have had (and myself when I game) tend to go for these types of attack whenever possible, and I feel just maxing Initiative when other games give you critical hit type things, is well, rather disappointing.

I'd have some kind of critical hit/sneak damage boost dynamic added while reducing defence by an amount aswell. Its what other games do, so I'd add that to character combat.

Otherwise, I'm pretty happy with combat as is.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

1.) Improve weapon damage. Body pistols do 2d6 damage, pistols and laser pistols do 3d6, gauss pistols rifles and laser carbines do 4d6, gauss rifles shotguns and laser rifles do 5d6. Increase heavy weapon damage to match - i.e. an autocannon does 6d6 damage.

Yes, I know that makes combat more lethal. That Is The EnTiRe Point.

2.) Improve armor ratings, e.g. jack gives 3 points of protection and cloth gives 10. That way armor has some worthwhile protection against the better damage.

Doesn't this all cancell out then, unless you can't afford any armour at all?

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

I have found that with the Rapid Fire house rules that I use above, that lethality really isn't an issue. Sure, an advanced laser rifle already does 5d6+3, but when you can shoot the badguy three times in a round, it really adds up quick. It's stunningly deadly, but I think not particularly unrealistic (unless you want to say that laser rifles have to charge up significantly between shots).

I tend to think that an advanced laser rifle would need a few seconds to charge the barrel, and so can only fire once per round. The trade off is the greater damage per shot

Egil

Edit for spelling and grammar!

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

**Long Post Warning*** Long Post Warning***

This seems very like a thread about MgT combat we were all involved a few months ago! Hi guys!

Since then have done a few more Trav combats, and so have tried some house rules etc.

My basic starting point is, IMHO, the core rules as written give a good, playable game that is fairly realistic and slots in with the use of other skills and attributes in MgT. What follows are simply how we deal with some specific issues;

Initiative
Largely as written, like the idea that once the order in a combat is established, a sense of action/reaction develops. However,
1. in an ambush type situation the attackers get one "free attack", ie one major action before everybody rolls for initiave, then as normal.
2. when a combatants init is over 12, he upgrades his minor action to a significant action, so can run further, jump higher and, usually, shoot twice. (This rewards tactics rolls, high dex and combat drugs), we did try putting the extra action at the end of the combat round, but, quite frankly, that was a needless complication, so the combatant with Init 14 get his two attacks before anyone else moves. If weapon recoil is an issue, the effects are, obviously, applied twice.

Minor Actions
as written but changing a magazine requires 3 minor actions, i.e. one to unload the empty, one to reload and one to make ready ("cock") the rifle.

Types of fire
1. Standard, rules as written, one shot.
2. Rapid fire, those with revolvers or semi-automatic or automatic slug throwers can fire one extra round per level of skill above one, i.e. gun combat 3 can fire two extra rounds, at the same target, and adding to damage as in burst fire. Increase recoil by one, regardless of how many extra rounds fired. In any event, no more than 4 rounds may be fired (as I pretty much cap "physical skills" at 4 anyway, the max likely will be 3 rounds fired in 6 seconds by someone with slug rifle/pistol 4)
3. Burst fire, as written (uncomplicated, and provides a useful damage bonus to overcome armour etc).
4 . Autofire, as written, but no individual target can be hit more than once by an autofire attack from the same weapon in the same attack.

Explosions
Blast in an enclosed space rebounds, measure the distance to a firm wall/side of trench etc then back to the target, he may be damaged two or even three times, e.g. grenade rolls into a foxhole, explodes for 5d6 dam, the blast then rebounds, for another 3d6, and (a very tight hole) then for a final 1d6. However, if the tactical situation is such that the target could get out of a direct line of blast with suitably hard cover intervening, then no damage at all, e.g, grenade rolls into foxhole, target jumps out of foxhole and lies down, blast travels upwards and out, causing no damage (in that situation I would probably require a dodge and a successful dex or athletics roll to get out in time).

Stance
Move at half speed when crouching, quarter speed when prone (crawling, actually pretty fast crawling speed, if done over a long distance would start to ask for end rolls, reduce speed etc)

Common Modifiers
Pretty much as written, but we give a one handed pistol an extra -2 at long range. (actually, this is still very generous for pistol accuracy, but don't want to discourage space cowboys too much)

Equipment, ranges and CSC
Have very mixed feelings about CSC, so use the core book weapons stats, but with the addition of SMG-TL5-ranged (pistol)-dam 3d6-3-Auto 4-recoil 1- mass 3- magazine 30- 400Cr-ammo cost 20cr per mag. Note that as a smg is used two handed, the extra -2 range penalty above does not apply.
Edit (forgot to add) We limit auto pistols to No Auto, but, of course, if you want extra rounds, can apply the rapid fire rules above.
Also (now, anyway) disallow the various "improved" ammunition types for calibres below 10mm, so if you want your super duper discarding sabot uranium tips nuclear explosive round, you need a bigger barrel. (this came out of some playtesting where it became apparent that ACRs and gauss rifles with improved ammunitions were too powerful in relation to energy weapons, IMHO)

Skills
Someone suggested that MgT lumped too many different weapons together in one skill, personally don't agree, if you are a good shot with a M14 you will be a good shot with a M16, or an AKM or even a musket, after you have familiarised yourself. Even with bladed weapons, though I can see that, at the extremes, rapiers and broadswords will have different techniques, I still tend to think that there will be enough commonality to put them togeter as large blade skill. Just a point of view!

And that's that, obviously many of these ideas are similar to, or identical to, points already posted, I make no claim to originality!

Egil

 

[DFW]

Hmm, considering some of the the recent advances dealing with muzzle climb and recoil for auto fire weapons, may need to change a rule or two for TL8+ assault rifle type weapons.