What is an "average commercial shipyard"?

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Improvements in manufacturing technologies. More and better automation.

Consider the development of microchips over the last 60 years. There are some of the more successful 8 bit chips still having variants built. They are most certainly built faster now than when they were first built due to the manufacturing being vastly more efficient, yields are far higher and they make more in a batch at higher yields. Even modern chips have much higher yields than those simpler chips had when they were designed and again they can make larger batches.

Apply the same to say a Model T Ford. If we had reason to make them now in volume don't you think that with a modern production line we wouldn't build them faster (and better quality) than they were made by Ford back in their time?

Given those things being true then ship construction over the TLs should become more efficient as well.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Improvements in manufacturing technologies. More and better automation.

Consider the development of microchips over the last 60 years. There are some of the more successful 8 bit chips still having variants built. They are most certainly built faster now than when they were first built due to the manufacturing being vastly more efficient, yields are far higher and they make more in a batch at higher yields. Even modern chips have much higher yields than those simpler chips had when they were designed and again they can make larger batches.

Apply the same to say a Model T Ford. If we had reason to make them now in volume don't you think that with a modern production line we wouldn't build them faster (and better quality) than they were made by Ford back in their time?

Given those things being true then ship construction over the TLs should become more efficient as well.

That was kind of my point.

 

[Limpin Legin]

In statistics, "average" could refer to the mode, mean or median from a set or a table of numbers.

mode is the number that occurs the most frequent in the data set. So where your quote starts by saying "On average, ...", I would interpret that as meaning "On the most frequent occurrences (modal average), ..."

mean is the the number found by totalling all the numbers in the set or table, and dividing the result by two. So where your quote starts by saying "assume that it takes one day per million credits", I would interpret that as being a mean type of average.

median is the number that separates the higher half from the lower half. So, where you have a set of six starport ranks, the median average is the third one in the list. Ie, "Class C" is the third rank in the table of six starports.

 

[tytalan]

CRB pg 257
Class A build all ship types
Class B build Starships
Class C build small craft only
They are not clear about class B Starports for some reason

 

[Condottiere]

Now, I would look at the description as minimum facilities, not Michelin Stars.

 

[Galadrion]

CRB pg 257
Class A build all ship types
Class B build Starships
Class C build small craft only
They are not clear about class B Starports for some reason

Class B starports can build spaceships, but not starships (officially). Starships - those ships which can jump (or exceed lightspeed by other, exotic, methods) - can only be built at Class A starports (except they can also be built by appropriately equipped ships/stations with the right shipyard components).

 

[Condottiere]

That's the starport.

Then you have spaceports, and, presumably, marinas.

 

[rinku]

To clarify, turning the page to p258:

Facilities: These are the starport’s repair and construction ability. A shipyard allows for the construction of new vessels. A shipyard capable of building all types of ships can construct small craft (less than 100 tons), spacecraft (100 to 5,000 tons) and capital ships (more than 5,000 tons). However only a Class A starport can construct jump-capable spacecraft.

So ignore that 200 ton shipyard on the class C ports. That's just building small craft and the rule about building components in parallel to reduce time is much less likely to apply, although I guess you might have one port just churning out cutter modules and another one churning out the base cutter. In practice, the overall time to produce two cutters with a module would likely be similar to two ports just making both parts.

 

[tytalan]

Class B starports can build spaceships, but not starships (officially). Starships - those ships which can jump (or exceed lightspeed by other, exotic, methods) - can only be built at Class A starports (except they can also be built by appropriately equipped ships/stations with the right shipyard components).

Good catch I was half asleep

 

[Maxijohndoe]

Much like the real world there would be many Starports and Orbital facilities capable of building small space and starships - say up to 400 tons - but has the size gets larger the number of shipyards able to construct them gets smaller.

A Class A Starport on a major trade route surrounded by multiple Industrial systems may have hundreds of construction yards churning out big ships on a production line style basis.

A frontier Class A Starport away from major industrial systems may only have a handful of construction yards and only makes ships to order.

But as always it is what the Referee decides.

 

[rinku]

Population is usually a good rule of thumb for things like local production capability.

 

[Endie]

But as always it is what the Referee decides.

Absolutely. The Class rating for star ports is a handy rule of thumb that would probably be true less often than it was false.

The idea that a starport with sizeable shipyards can’t build starships because it doesn’t have enough commercial space for shopping in isn’t really supportable.

Luckily for Terra in the Interstellar Wars they weren’t prevented from building jump-capable ships due to lacking a starport with a big-enough hotel on it.

 

[Maxijohndoe]

Military is different from civilian. In time of war all available resources will be diverted to production. For example the USA was producing more ships and aircraft a day than they produced in a year if you compare 1945 to 1920.

Civilian ship construction is more constrained by the need to make a profit or at least break even. There is a huge market for small ships but big ships are probably limited to a handful of shipyards run by the megacorporations.

That would be the 3I at least. Other polities may have Government controlled civilian ship building.

 

[Condottiere]

It's possible that building a jump drive needs certification, within the Imperium.

 

[Condottiere]

It's possible you can build a spacecraft in your own backyard, if you can get hold of the right parts.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Absolutely. The Class rating for star ports is a handy rule of thumb that would probably be true less often than it was false.

The idea that a starport with sizeable shipyards can’t build starships because it doesn’t have enough commercial space for shopping in isn’t really supportable.

Luckily for Terra in the Interstellar Wars they weren’t prevented from building jump-capable ships due to lacking a starport with a big-enough hotel on it.

If it is more often false than true, than WTF is it the mechanic for the game? High Guard lists the minimum for starports to have their class rating. Class A Starport? Minimum of 25,000 tons of shipyard and 100,000 tons of Docking Space. (That Docking Space thing needs changed because it is stupid and confusing. I understand that they meant to say docking for 100,000 tons of ship, but in the same book, Docking Space is a specific component. Had they used a term like "berthing" it would not have been confusing and then would have included Full Hangars and Docking Facilities in the minimum required tonnage of "Docking Space") So, if it doesn't have at least 25,000 tons of shipyard which can produce jumpdrives, it cannot be a Class-A Starport.

Is it a bad rule? Yes, but it is the rule as written. Obviously, I change it in My campaigns. What is also obvious, is that you don't need a shipyard to build ships. You can use a Construction Deck and build jump-capable ships up to the TL of the Construction Deck. Once they published the Construction Deck, the whole shipyard thing didn't make sense anymore.

 

[HalC]

There is a Mongoose publication titled "Starports" page 51 that discusses modules. Shipyard (small craft) for 100 dTons per week, Shipyard (Spacecraft) for 500 dTons pe week, Shipyard (Capital Ships) for 2000 dTons per week, Shipyard (Full Commercial) for 2000 dTons per week.

Looking at HighGuard pg 62 we have:

"A shipyard consumes two tons for every ton of the largest ship it is capable of building or the total tonnage of ships it can build at any one time (so, a 10,000 ton shipyard can build ships totalling up to 5,000 tons).

For every ton they consume, shipyards cost MCr0.5 and require 1 Power. They also need 1 crewman for every 10 tons."

Ultimately? Modular Ship building should NOT be able to by pass the hard limits of manufacturing posted above. Put another way? Your "factory" requires sufficient material to build X units per week. If you try to manufacture your items 3x faster, you will require 3x the materials. If you can build modular sections of a hull, you still need space to build the modules, then a place to assemble the modules together as one "dock" area.

Now, what specifically is a shipyard? Is it a manufacturing center? Is it an assembly line that manufactures items - then passes those items down the line much as cars are manufactured? Where are the jump drives manufactured? Are they built at a specialized factory and the final product is shipped in pieces by maglev rail to the shipyard proper? Are the Jump Drive manufacturing facilities built adjacent to the shipyard to facilitate easy transport? Page 62 suggests that a Class A starport has a shipyard capacity of at least 25,000 dTons. A class B requires at least 10,000 dTons (but note that the class B starport can't manufacture Jump capable ships!).

Ah well, musings as I try to find a way to answer the original question. Now that ROBOTS has come out, the question that comes into play is - can a single robot take the place of a single worker as required (1 crewman per 10 dTons of the shipyard).

Classic Traveller had rules for how many dTons a shipyard can produce based upon the workforce for the world. I would expect a realistic answer to the question would be a function of max production capabilities, max labor required, and max resources required for producing hulls and equipment.

 

[ross]

Which leaves Me severely confused as to what any of this is supposed to mean. Which takes me back to my original question...

What is an "average commercial shipyard"?

That’s a very broad question, but shouldn’t that be a GM decision? IMTU an average shipyard is capable of building or servicing ships up to 5,000 dtons. While these are commonly Class A, the capability is also very common in Class B starports. The main difference between the two IMTU is the size of the orbital facility.

Although it is possible, functionally no ships are built planetside. The technology exists, but zero gravity construction is much easier and more efficient.

Ships larger than 5,000 dtons are not commonly built in traditional facilities. naval vessels are built at Naval Depots, and larger traders and liners are built in special facilities. Usually there are only one or two of larger facilities in each subsector.

 

[MasterGwydion]

That’s a very broad question, but shouldn’t that be a GM decision?

I would say it should be the decision of whomever built the setting. They are the only ones who actually know what they considered an "average commercial shipyard" when they wrote it.

IMTU an average shipyard is capable of building or servicing ships up to 5,000 dtons. While these are commonly Class A, the capability is also very common in Class B starports. The main difference between the two IMTU is the size of the orbital facility.

Although it is possible, functionally no ships are built planetside. The technology exists, but zero gravity construction is much easier and more efficient.

Ships larger than 5,000 dtons are not commonly built in traditional facilities. naval vessels are built at Naval Depots, and larger traders and liners are built in special facilities. Usually there are only one or two of larger facilities in each subsector.

The book lists an output for an average commercial shipyard though. 1MCr/day

 

[ross]

I would say it should be the decision of whomever built the setting. They are the only ones who actually know what they considered an "average commercial shipyard" when they wrote it.

The book lists an output for an average commercial shipyard though. 1MCr/day

That’s a fine opinion, but it’s not generally how RPGs have worked in the last 50 years. The setting is only a starting point and we each make it our own.