What If?

alex_greene said:
Traveller is not just a science fantasy: it is, in fact, a Space Opera. And if it isn't, what's The Pirates of Drinax about? It's like running a scenario based on Dune: certain things, you have to accept as a given within the setting - FTL, the humanoid sophonts, the Ancients, grav, a girl who becomes a Duchess aged 16, wins a war at 17 and is an Empress at 18 ... and psionics.

I know you can't accept telepathy..

Actually, I did accept telepathy. And no it isn't really fantasy genre on the tech stuff. You still don't understand science fiction vs. fantasy. We'll just leave it at that until a possible future understanding is gained.

Just because they can't describe the intricacies of future science possibilities doesn't move it out of those realms any more than Verne not being able to describe future nuc subs... As far as Varg, we can't even read the genetic programming language yet so not sure what you are referring to there.
 
F33D said:
alex_greene said:
Traveller is not just a science fantasy: it is, in fact, a Space Opera. And if it isn't, what's The Pirates of Drinax about? It's like running a scenario based on Dune: certain things, you have to accept as a given within the setting - FTL, the humanoid sophonts, the Ancients, grav, a girl who becomes a Duchess aged 16, wins a war at 17 and is an Empress at 18 ... and psionics.

I know you can't accept telepathy..

F33D said:
Actually, I did accept telepathy. And no it isn't really fantasy genre on the tech stuff. You still don't understand science fiction vs. fantasy. We'll just leave it at that until a possible future understanding is gained.
I ran a science fiction book readers club for a number of years. If it was in paperback, hardback, comic book, television, radio, audio book, PDF or injected directly into the bloodstream, I have read it and critiqued it. Traveller is a fantasy on the technical stuff, compared to the books I've read. It is still Hollywood scifi, all glossy covers by Chris Foss and Jim Burns.

F33D said:
As far as Varg, we can't even read the genetic programming language yet so not sure what you are referring to there.
We've decoded the complete genomes of dozens of species already, including human. They're all based on just the four pairs of nucleotides Adenosine, Thymine, Guanine and Cytosine, and even Grandfather would have had to work with those four nucleotide bases when he was manipulating his uplifted dolphins, his Zhodani and his pet wolves-soon-to-be-Vargr.
 
As you can tell, I am kind of a big fan of science. Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Einstein, Dirac, Mandelbrot (aw, geez, I just reminded myself - every last one of them's dead!) - they inspired me, but I was heavily into the Periodic Table of the Elements, its history and development, without anyone having to tell me anything.

I studied the EM spectrum, calculus, the basics of quantum mechanics, and am still reading up on number theory, mathematical developments, primes, the ABC conjecture and similar exotic branches of maths and physics. I followed the CERN developments with intense curiosity, wondering what the supposed discovery of the Higgs boson will mean for the Standard Model; and the latest discoveries from Cassini and Curiosity fascinate me as much as the Dawn probe and the recent eclipse and the transit of Venus earlier this year, and the anticipated arrival of New Horizons at Pluto.

So I love science, hard science; I know Einstein's postulates are going to take one hell of a beating, but it would be great to test them out with a robot probe sent to Pluto FTL and brought back in one year or whatever, instead of twenty; and I would love to see NASA start sending out the first FTL probes to the farthest corners of the universe within my lifetime.

I know how hard science fiction can get. And practically none of it is nearly as hard as real science is. Every sf author has fudged and handwaved on some of the details somewhere, and it's only science that has later come along and actually proven a scant few of the hypothetical technologies invented for some of these shows.

Hells, there was a mathematical proof written for Futurama that turned out to be rigorous. And Arthur C Clarke never really expected his idea of space communication satellites to be taken at all seriously. Until it was.

Traveller might feel like hard sf, but believe me - it isn't. It's right up there along with The Stainless Steel Rat and Judge Dredd.
 
alex_greene said:
dragoner said:
Red Mars is hard? huh
Is it on a level with the Disney Mission To Mars, or like Childhood's End by Arthur C Clarke?

Never read Disney Mission to Mars and it's been almost 30 years since I read Childhood's End, so I can't say. Comparitive analysis isn't exactly how science is done, science depends more on empiricism; which to say terraforming Mars, a planet with low gravity and almost no magnetosphere, pretty close to fantasy. Coming from a hard science background, I'd put 99% of science fiction firmly in the fiction category, which doesn't necessarily bother me as long as science doesn't get used as a deus ex machina plot device or take on aspects of religion. It is good to rewind a bit to remember that Traveller takes place in the far future, around 3600 years or so, which makes it impossible to state what changes in scientific knowledge there will be. Traveller is a bit on the conservative side in many ways, such as with quantum entanglement opening the door to teleportation or even with CERN isolating anti-matter for all it's purposes. However, the TL's in Traveller are really a game-ism, and aren't a part of science or engineering; the future will bring what advances in science that it does, ours is just to sit back in wonder.
 
dragoner said:
Coming from a hard science background, I'd put 99% of science fiction firmly in the fiction category, which doesn't necessarily bother me as long as science doesn't get used as a deus ex machina plot device or take on aspects of religion. It is good to rewind a bit to remember that Traveller takes place in the far future, around 3600 years or so, which makes it impossible to state what changes in scientific knowledge there will be. Traveller is a bit on the conservative side in many ways, such as with quantum entanglement opening the door to teleportation or even with CERN isolating anti-matter for all it's purposes. However, the TL's in Traveller are really a game-ism, and aren't a part of science or engineering; the future will bring what advances in science that it does, ours is just to sit back in wonder.
And play the sorts of people who refuse to do that, and who climb into their scout ship and go out there and find out stuff.

And as we have all been discussing these issues, and wondering what level of reality to put into Traveller - not as much as you imagine - when it comes to psionics, it really does behoove me to want to put the thing into perspective, to make psionics look and feel as plausible as grav plates, to create options for psi in non-OTU games, and generally to give psionics the kind of treatment that could make gamers sit up and look and think "I could play one of those," so you could indeed enjoy a Traveller game where you have psions present. Even if they are as rare, in your game, as horse feathers, you'll know that they are a part of the environment and setting.
 
alex_greene said:
And as we have all been discussing these issues, and wondering what level of reality to put into Traveller - not as much as you imagine - when it comes to psionics, it really does behoove me to want to put the thing into perspective, to make psionics look and feel as plausible as grav plates, to create options for psi in non-OTU games, and generally to give psionics the kind of treatment that could make gamers sit up and look and think "I could play one of those," so you could indeed enjoy a Traveller game where you have psions present. Even if they are as rare, in your game, as horse feathers, you'll know that they are a part of the environment and setting.

lol at roping me into the psionics thing. Well I'll go out on a limb here and call psionics from a scientific standpoint, pure gibberish. It is what it is, but hell, I use 'em in my TU; right now there is a NPC Guard Major and she is pulled straight from the old Zhodani module. The issue with psionics is that I don't think there needs to be more written when they are already in the CRB and the Psion book, but if you want to do it, go for it. In the old days we didn't use it too much because it was too much like having Uri Gellar in space, I only recently started throwing it in there as something different, and one thing I found is it isn't the special powers that that psions have that is the deal, it's the overall societal effects of having psions around, that is the real unknown-unknown question about psionics.
 
alex_greene said:
As you can tell, I am kind of a big fan of science. Carl Sagan, Richard Feynman, Einstein, Dirac, Mandelbrot (aw, geez, I just reminded myself - every last one of them's dead!) - they inspired me, but I was heavily into the Periodic Table of the Elements, its history and development, without anyone having to tell me anything.

I studied the EM spectrum, calculus, the basics of quantum mechanics, and am still reading up on number theory, mathematical developments, primes, the ABC conjecture and similar exotic branches of maths and physics. I followed the CERN developments with intense curiosity, wondering what the supposed discovery of the Higgs boson will mean for the Standard Model; and the latest discoveries from Cassini and Curiosity fascinate me as much as the Dawn probe and the recent eclipse and the transit of Venus earlier this year, and the anticipated arrival of New Horizons at Pluto.

So I love science, hard science; I know Einstein's postulates are going to take one hell of a beating, but it would be great to test them out with a robot probe sent to Pluto FTL and brought back in one year or whatever, instead of twenty; and I would love to see NASA start sending out the first FTL probes to the farthest corners of the universe within my lifetime.

I know how hard science fiction can get. And practically none of it is nearly as hard as real science is. Every sf author has fudged and handwaved on some of the details somewhere, and it's only science that has later come along and actually proven a scant few of the hypothetical technologies invented for some of these shows.

Hells, there was a mathematical proof written for Futurama that turned out to be rigorous. And Arthur C Clarke never really expected his idea of space communication satellites to be taken at all seriously. Until it was.

Traveller might feel like hard sf, but believe me - it isn't. It's right up there along with The Stainless Steel Rat and Judge Dredd.
I teach Physics for a living. I still wouldn't dismiss Traveller as not being science fiction though. There is a lot of good stuff in there that, certainly for kids, gets people to think in scientific terms a lot more than some other material I be can't bothered to mention. You're mileage will vary as to how much real science you want to bring into the game, but the avenues are there for you to do that, with the caveat that it is a fictional universe it is representing.
 
TrippyHippy said:
I teach Physics for a living. I still wouldn't dismiss Traveller as not being science fiction though. There is a lot of good stuff in there that, certainly for kids, gets people to think in scientific terms a lot more than some other material I be can't bothered to mention. You're mileage will vary as to how much real science you want to bring into the game, but the avenues are there for you to do that, with the caveat that it is a fictional universe it is representing.
You could teach kids about mathematics, logic and science in Legend, given the right scenario. Even in a rampant fantasy, cause always precedes effect - even if the connection, the means, is outlandish, such as a spell or telekinesis. The cause is weird, but it's still a cause - someone did something, and something else happened as a direct result.

In Traveller, for example, the reason why there are staterooms rather than acceleration couches on board Starships is because deckplates, and they work because magic. It's fiction. But it's consistent. The workings are pure technobabble - you might rip open one of those deckplates and find that they contain nothing but flour sacks stuffed with Cavorite.

A man waves his hand upon a rooftop, and a King dies. Magic - or a perfectly mundane code signal sent to an assassin observing the man through high powered lenses? A young woman predicts that the crops will fail in the Autumn. Sorcery, or a solid understanding of local weather patterns and ecology, and the knowledge that the local farmers have not been rotating their crops and letting fields lie fallow as they are supposed to?

I've read fantasy stories where the character manages to solve a puzzle based entirely on the knowledge of how metals expand and contract with changes in temperature. He used science to reason how to release an iron metal pillar from the brass collar holding it, by cooling one so it would contract. He then used magic to reduce the temperature.

In another part of the same story, he summoned a demon from the netherworld, a tiny little mote of an imp, and set it a task to channel hot air out of one end of a tube, and icy air out of the other. The imp revealed that it had last been summoned to serve "a great wizard" called Maxwell.

And need I go into The Phantom Tollbooth, and its long, wonderful paean of praise for mathematics, as well as Lewis Carroll's legendary Alice fantasies?

The other day, one of my oldest friends told me that he roleplays World of Darkness stuff to get away from science. All his player characters are scientists.

The thing about Traveller is that while a lot of the correspondents immerse themselves in the setting and think that it's about the science, nobody's realised that the other half of the phrase "science fiction" has to have its due, too. There is a narrative flow to a Traveller adventure, things get done not through following some scientific principle but because drama.

Drama, the part that brings the game to life, follows its own rules, its own logic. It involves people - the players, the NPCs - and the story is about what the player characters do unto others and what those others do unto the player characters.

People. Not things. Not concepts. Traveller is not a scientific laboratory. It is a story about adventure; about people who, against all rationality, derelict their duties and head off to explore the universe and maybe seek their fortune. And against all rationality, the Referee has to ensure that they get what they want - all the happily ever afters the human imagination can deliver.

You might as well put full stops between the first three words of "Science Fiction Adventure In The Far Future," because inasmuch as Traveller focuses on science, those other two elements - fiction and adventure - have to have equal time on stage, too.

So stuff happens in Traveller that looks like nonsense to you. Fine. The universe of Traveller just did something it shouldn't. A lightning storm in space. A hole opening up into the past, or another dimension. A man waving his hand, and his enemy flies back against a wall, pinned there by a force he cannot see.

The fiction part, the part that seems to defy science, is stuff happening that should not be happening - but it does, so what are your characters going to do about it?

Or maybe it isn't defying science - it's using some principles of a science you are not currently aware of. The biggest part about suspending disbelief is the knowledge that you do not know everything there is to know - that nobody does, or even can, know everything there is. Suspension of disbelief, the essential component of getting into Traveller and into roleplaying games and science fiction as a whole, comes from indulging in that gap in your understanding; in wholeheartedly exercising the faculty for fabrication and fabulation to imagine how something can happen that doesn't seem to have any logic behind it ... but which nonetheless still has a cause.

A psionic phenomenon has to have had some psionic agency or mind behind it, whether present, past or future; and the laws of drama - like Chekhov's Gun - pretty much require that the Referee reveal the cause to the player characters during the course of the adventure, so even if you the player don't know how it happened, the player characters do, the psion does, and you the player can have your characters respond accordingly - such as pumping five rounds rapid into the man who slammed your team buddy against a wall with telekinesis.

The one thing that Referees have to do, in Traveller as in any other roleplaying game or work of fiction, is to keep it consistent. If someone uses telekinesis through a solid wall in one story, you know that it can be done - so if you encounter a locked room mystery in the next story you would have to show that there is no way that the murder could have been done via telekinesis through a solid wall like last time. If you encountered teleporters in one story, you have to show that the killer in the locked room mystery could not have used teleportation. Tough row to hoe, but that's the way it is.

You're thinking like real world scientists, and not letting go of your disbelief enough. The universe you and I live in is crazier than Traveller can ever be - if anything, psionics isn't crazy enough for this real world. But because it's consistent, it's a useful narrative tool in fiction, which is useful for Traveller because it adds an exotic element to your roleplaying adventure.

If you want adventure that is pure science and no "hogwash" ... book a visit to the Adler Planetarium or something, or go and watch Neil deGrasse Tyson or Mythbusters.

And let's not forget one other thing.

You don't play Traveller to teach people about science! If you're a scientist or an engineer, why do you think you'd want to drag the laboratory home with you and into your imagination? Roleplaying games are about adventure, nor learning. Don't expect the stuff I write about in Traveller to have to teach the players anything. I write stuff that will make their hearts pound against their sternums with excitement, if I pitch the adventure right and the Referee is half awake. When I write stuff for Traveller, I leave the agendas at home.
 
Alex thanks for both this and the Psionics thread. I don't have much time to post in detail or argue back and forth, but I noticed a long time ago that Traveler suffered from the "Hard Sci Fi Only" syndrome amongst many fans. I never approached it from that viewpoint playing it in the late 70's early 80's. To me it was a simpler vehicle for telling the same stories as you would with Space Opera by FGU. The mechanics were simple and quick, and adding what I needed to tell my version of the Lensman series, or the CoDominium and Empire of Man. I don't run a science fiction game to be scientifically accurate, I run it for the excitement and to tell a story with a much larger backdrop, and if that requires some handwavium or a lot of it so be it, as long as everyone at the table is having a good time.
 
It's a generic rule-set.
The thing is, 90% of RPGs and playable universes fall foul of 'science fantasy/space opera' to some greater or lesser degree.

F33D's position on psionics is a good example - macro-scale kinesis, teleportation, etc, needs a power source. Warhammer 40,000 makes no bones about being especially realistic but when you get right down to it, the difference between the unapologetic "chaos did it" and some more supposedly realistic universe saying "it's all because of quantum, don't ask" is pretty minimal.

Someone made a reference to dune earlier. I'll actually stick my neck out on the block and say that I do think it falls mostly across the line to science fiction - it's just that, like Foundation, the science in question is politics/psychology; the 'physical science' is less important to the story and hence considered (and explained) with less rigour. Herbert specifically created 'handwave' technologies to achieve particular plot effects rather than worrying about how they worked:

Foldspace: Some sort of FTL is obviously a prerequisite for a useable interstellar setting
Shields: The fast/slow shield covers a lot of problems with the tech (i.e. how do you breath) but the core reason was to make lead characters want to fight with swords on a battlefield

Ultimately, that's the kind of logic for a GM to pick up; "I want to see what happens in a universe where...". Artificial gravity is a common trope in sci-fi because it makes the filming cheaper. Transporters were invented for the same reason (model sequences for the shuttle cost too much). These are bad reasons for a GM - you have no 'budget' you need to satisfy; give it a try.

Ultimately, I agree with alex_greene - it's not a science degree, but put some thought into it and stay consistant you're fine.


The key with good science fiction is that the non-plot-relevant science should (a) feel logical and (b) not intrude on the awareness and you're fine. Some of the re-imagined battlestar galactica is a good example. I don't need a detailled essay on how FTL works - I just need to know the limits and that it'll work each time in the same manner. Equally, you don't need to tell me what DRADIS stands for (I don't think they ever do?) because a reasonably intelligent viewer can make a reasonable guess, and - more importantly - because it would feel bloody stupid for one qualified military officer to stand around explaining acronyms to another qualified military officer in the middle of a battle when the battle is the story you're trying to tell.


Would be nice to have a scientist book to go with scoundrel, mercenary, agent, etc, though......
 
Consider The X-Men comic. You happily accept that a man can shoot a ray carrying about 2 gigawatts of power per second out of his eyes, or that a man can alter magnetic fields to create an unbreakable forcefield about his body.

So where do those characters get their power from? The answer is Elsewhere.

Perhaps, on some quantum level, psion characters can tap into some sort of Casimir effect that yields sufficient power to create macroscopic effects and feats, and even to do things such as adjust his physical location so as to tunnel through some subspace domain and materialise elsewhere (Teleportation). Wherever that power source is, whether it's something inherent in the fabric of the universe or brought about by an intersection with some sort of Psi-plane existing in parallel with the domain where Jump ships go, the power behind psionics comes from that place and is channelled and made manifest by the psion into desired the physical effects.

And perhaps it is the first fumblings into Jump-drive which create the conditions that allow for psionics, by connecting minds to the Psi-plane in Jump-space for the first time. Perhaps the first children born in Jump-space, between the stars, outside the universe, were the first psions, and they brought their abilities back with them on emergence into the Einsteinian universe.

And maybe, just maybe, that force of psi is itself a sentient being, perhaps a manifestation of The Abyss, seeking to infiltrate itself into the universe to infect it with psi, like a virus, or an injection of poison into the deep tissue that is reality, warping the laws of physics to supplant them with its own ... But if you're not into Mage: the Awakening you can easily ignore that option.
 
alex_greene said:
Consider The X-Men comic. You happily accept that a man can shoot a ray carrying about 2 gigawatts of power per second out of his eyes, or that a man can alter magnetic fields to create an unbreakable forcefield about his body.

Strangely enough this question was central to a fantasy setting I am working on. I wanted the "magic" of the setting to have a well constructed and somewhat logical framework on which individual effects could be based. Certain effects were essentially low powered, and involved altering ones pervceptions, or body to a degree, basically personal effects. The ones which affect things outside of the individual naturally have to get their juice from somewhere like the air around them. So essentially the caster would use the heat in the air around him. Naturally this causes a variety of effects from a drop in temperature to a constant breeze of varying degrees, depending on the speed of the change. Take your time and keep it subtle or do it quick and dirty and have ice form seemingly form nowhere. Also the less you have to work with externally the likelier you are to go into hypothermia if you push things.

In many games the energy issue is resolved by allowing for psionic disciplines which allow the conversion of stored energy into a usable format, such as sucking your laser pistols battery dry for extra psionic juice.
 
Faelan Niall said:
alex_greene said:
Consider The X-Men comic. You happily accept that a man can shoot a ray carrying about 2 gigawatts of power per second out of his eyes, or that a man can alter magnetic fields to create an unbreakable forcefield about his body.

Strangely enough this question was central to a fantasy setting I am working on. I wanted the "magic" of the setting to have a well constructed and somewhat logical framework on which individual effects could be based. Certain effects were essentially low powered, and involved altering ones pervceptions, or body to a degree, basically personal effects. The ones which affect things outside of the individual naturally have to get their juice from somewhere like the air around them. So essentially the caster would use the heat in the air around him. Naturally this causes a variety of effects from a drop in temperature to a constant breeze of varying degrees, depending on the speed of the change. Take your time and keep it subtle or do it quick and dirty and have ice form seemingly form nowhere. Also the less you have to work with externally the likelier you are to go into hypothermia if you push things.

In many games the energy issue is resolved by allowing for psionic disciplines which allow the conversion of stored energy into a usable format, such as sucking your laser pistols battery dry for extra psionic juice.
An approach favoured by Lyndon Hardy in Master of The Five Magics - a fantasy book which featured a noted Caltech and Berkeley physicist's logical engineering approach to magic, and name checked Maxwell's Demon to boot.

One of my favourite series, by the way, and Lyn Hardy is one of my favourite physics heroes, since he thought about this sort of thing a long time before many of us did, I should imagine - and yes, I do reference Lyndon Hardy when I think of where the energies for Psi come from.

For amusement, I also wish to draw everyone's attention to the recent XKCD what-if piece, "Yoda." You're not the only ones thinking about energy and psionics. :)

Also, this ... :)

806_561346213890810_1816578172_n.jpg
 
Thanks for the book recommendation, always looking for a good read. I go to book stores these days and keep finding myself picking up older stuff. I don't know if there is a glut of sci fi/fantasy these days or if so much of it is just poorly written, that trying to find the gems is almost not worth the effort.
 
Yoda's source of power is the Force. Since the power to destroy a planet is insignificant compared to the Force, he should easily have enough power to lift a small fighter out of a swamp. The consequences of a badly failed skill roll could be amusing, unless you're standing on the same planet. :)

Power issues aside, telekinesis basically involves using your mind as a sort of lever to direct that power. Get it wrong and your brain flips out of your ears. Remember that if your psionicist player fails his skill roll. :lol:

Teleporting also has its problems. For one thing, if you teleport to a different height, you gain or lose potential energy, and that energy gain or loss will manifest itself as heat. Also, if you teleport far enough round the planet, the ground is pointing a different direction and so is the direction of its movement. Imagine you're in a spaceship looking at Earth; a person in the UK has his head pointing at the top of your viewscreen and Earth's rotation is moving him to your left, a person in Australia has his head pointing at the bottom of your viewscreen and Earth's rotation is moving him to your right. The guy in the UK teleports to Australia, and unless the teleport corrects both orientation and velocity, he briefly stands on his head and then is smeared across the landscape. Something else to think about when your player rolls badly. :D

Teleporting can also be done by machines rather than psionics. Exactly how it works will determine what happens when your imaginative players abuse the system or when a roll fails. One way is for matter to be converted to energy, beamed to the other site and converted back again, in which case e=mc^2 means the energy equivalent of a human-size object is pretty big and a teleport malfunction has a blast radius that can level a city. Another way is to dismantle the object at subatomic level, analyse the result, then send a signal to the device at the other end which then rebuilds the object out of some spare matter. Then you send the same signal repeatedly and now your teleporter is also a replicator and cloning facility. It also means that a failed skill roll means the signal wasn't quite properly encoded, so what comes out at the other end is either missing something or is inside out, which isn't too serious if it's a consignment of beans but is very serious if it's one of your player characters. :twisted: (And whichever type of teleport device you use, don't forget to remind your players about "The Fly"...)
 
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