What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

[Oly]

D20 IS a rules light game. It has a lot of options in the character generation system, but in play even the PCs will be using little more than the stat block above.

No it is not a rules light game, at least not by any objective standard that I can think of.

I've just lent over to my bookshelf and counted the combat pages for a number of my favourite systems.

Original Star Wars D6: 6
Call of Cthulhu: 7
Stormbringer: 9
Fudge: 19
Pendragon: 20 (including a skirmish battle system)
Conan: 35

On top of that raw page count you've then got all those lists of feats and special abilities that, as Clovenhoof says, provide exceptions and then exceptions to those exceptions. None of the systems above have that.

As you say there are no doubt heavier systems, you mention Chivalry and Sorcery and memories of vehicle combat in Twlight 2000 sends shivers down my spine, but that doesn't make D20 "rules light".

On a more subjective level I game in a group of four where three of us are experienced D20 gamers who each GM at least one D20 based game. However we all need rules summary cards and a whole lot of page flipping at certain points to make the game flow. That simply doesn't happen with any other system that we use, D20 is heavier.

D20 definitely sits on the "rules heavy" end of the spectrum when compared to many other games. If you call D20 rules light then what label would do you apply to something like Call of Cthulhu or even a really stripped down system like the original Ghostbusters?

Please note that "rules heavy" isn't a bad thing. The rules, options and details are why I chose to run my Conan game with it.

 

[Ranzadule]

No, really. I guess I am going to leave it. Happy threading!

I thought you left. :twisted:


I always find it funny that people think rolemaster is more complex than d20. It takes a bit more effort to design a character, but the system is easy. D20 core mechanic for skills and attacks is pretty easy but some people have trouble with the feats and special rules. Still far from complex, but gives players some options. d20 sux in 3.5 but Conan has made it playable and fun.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Problem is, a novice player/DM has no idea that he has the "power" to do so, since no where in the books is written that the DM has absolute power, instead being handled a huge amount of rules.

I consider that helpful to novice GMs. Not D20 specific but mechanical RPGs in general. A freshman GM doesn't have a real idea how to properly master a game anyway. He _needs_ the rules in order to understand what can and cannot happen. The rules can help him to find the right degree of challenge.
Sure, this also works with systems like Savage Worlds or D6 or whatever, but the important thing is that you do give the GM some mechanics to work with, rather than just tell a complete newbie "Do whatever feels good to you".

I always find it funny that people think rolemaster is more complex than d20.

Urgh. Rolemaster is a horrible, horrible slugfest of tables. It may not be complex, it may not be difficult, it is just an awfully cumbersome hulk of a rulebook filled with an idiotic amount of tables that bog down every farting action to a gooey crawl. "288-3: Daily defecation table. 67: soft and brown."
Rolemaster was indeed one of the systems that brought me to the conclusion: the more realistic a system wants to be, the more UNrealistic it actually feels in-game.

 

[kintire]

I've just lent over to my bookshelf and counted the combat pages for a number of my favourite systems.

Which is not a very good way to assess complexity at all. Do you consider that worked examples make rules more complicated for example? They add extra pages...

On top of that raw page count you've then got all those lists of feats and special abilities that, as Clovenhoof says, provide exceptions and then exceptions to those exceptions. None of the systems above have that.

As you say there are no doubt heavier systems, you mention Chivalry and Sorcery and memories of vehicle combat in Twlight 2000 sends shivers down my spine, but that doesn't make D20 "rules light".

I am not suggesting that d20 is the most rules light system. But its way down at the rules light end. Most of those pages you complain about are combat feats, which no one player will be using more than a few of. Compare this with C&S, Harn, Rifts, Rolemaster or even GURPS or White Wolf. Splitting dice pools, multiple dice pools and so on. There are simpler systems out there, but d20 is way down the rules light end. To describe it as one of the most complex systems is way WAY off.

I always find it funny that people think rolemaster is more complex than d20. It takes a bit more effort to design a character, but the system is easy. D20 core mechanic for skills and attacks is pretty easy but some people have trouble with the feats and special rules.

The system is fiendish. I suspect you know it very well and have little trouble with it because of that, but just compare a single combat attack:

d20: Attacker: Select feat use. Roll d20, add attack bonus. If greater than defence value, roll damage. Defender: Deduct damage from hit points. If hit points are 0 or less, fight over, if not, resume.

Rolemaster: Attacker: Divide OB between your attack and your defences, bearing in mind that your Defense Bonus is a pool that is reduced as you allocate defences to attacks. Defender: Allocate your defenses against the attack from your remaining DB. Attacker: Roll d100, rerolling if over 95 or under 5. Add your OB, deduct defenders DB. Determine defenders Armour Type (from 1-20). Look at the attack table for your weapon (yes, there's a seperate attack table for each weapon, and when I say each weapon, longswords, shortswords and scimitars are different weapons. There's an entire rulebook full of these things). Cross reference your net attack result with the defender's armour type on your weapon table, and determine the hit points, the critical and the critical type, and the secondary critical and critical type (if any). Defender: Deduct the hits from your opponent's total and calculate the effects on your skills and so on for crossing a hit point milestone. Attacker: locate the appropriate critical table for the type of critical you did (there are fewer of these: usually bash, pierce or slash, less commonly impact or unbalance plus a whole load of more exotic ones, which are not often used except for magic. Your secondary critical may be one of these, as they often come from weapon properties like Flaming or Holy). Look at the appropriate column for the severity of your critical result (A-E) and roll d100 again. Cross reference your result with the appropriate column, and determine the results. Repeat for secondary criticals if appropriate. Defender: apply the critical result. This can include skill penalties, loss of use of limbs, stunning, loss of hit points, loss of hit points per round, permanent maiming, unconciousness, death or a number of other effects. If still in the fight, hit back.

I'm claiming Rolemaster as more complex than d20. I don't really think that's too contentious...

 

[Hervé]

As I already explained 10.000 times before (see above) my reasons for refusing to buy any non-d20 Conan products are different. Most of us Conan d20-lovers spended considerable amounts of money on rpgs (especially Conan rpg) and now it happens we are and which, therefore, cannot afford wasting more money on useless sourcebooks.

Do you really think the others didn't do the same? I've bought all Conan MGP products so far and I bet I'm not the only one, from what I've read on these forums... At 43, I have wife (and ex wife!), kids and job, so I suppose that makes me too a “real-world adult with real-world concerns on money”…

This pools is indicative, not a realistic staistical mean...otherwise we should assume that only abou 60 people in the world play Conan rpg!

I completely agree on this. Hopefully for Mongoose, the Conan game isn't only played by the 60 or so old geeks (that's including me! :wink that write on this forum. Maybe it was the poll that was too narrow at first, proposing only two drastic choices: Do or die… Maybe a broader range of possibilities would have helped to elevate the debate a bit above “D20 is great/D20 sucks”.

Anyways, it sounds more like an ultimatum to Mongoose than an open debate on the possible future of the game…

I can’t really agree also on the “Do It Yourself RPG” matter. Of course, in theory you could just read the novels/pastiches/comics and use whatever system you like. Actually, being a Conan GM is already time consuming (as I’m a “real-world adult with real-world concerns”, remember?:wink and I can really afford to study every book word by word, compiling notes and translating them in game terms. Everything has been so nicely compiled and expanded by the Mongoose boys and the stuff is really worth the price to me, even with the crunchy parts I won’t probably never use.

As for non stats books, I suppose from what they say that the D20 supporters (to make it short) didn’t buy books like (Return to the) Road of Kings, as they hold almost no system data… :mrgreen:

 

[LucaCherstich]

I propose a poll for this thread: most useless thread ever!

Not really, forums are made to talk and a thread which get to 13 pages in two weeks is worth its existence!

 

[Krushnak]

Herve i was actually about to say that. I have the road of kings but not the 'return' and it has very lttle in the way of d20 crunch(90% fluff really), most of which is for monsters that occur in a specific region. having stats printed in a system you dont use isnt a bad thing anyway, if you know where they are coming from with them(with d20 i assume most people do) then it makes it easier to convert to whatever system your using.

too me d20 is an easy system to use. the core mechanic is as simple as you can get and its up to the players to memorize their own exceptions(ie feats and skills) just like in any other game system.

 

[Oly]

I've just lent over to my bookshelf and counted the combat pages for a number of my favourite systems.

Which is not a very good way to assess complexity at all. Do you consider that worked examples make rules more complicated for example? They add extra pages...

It's not a bad way, if a system can include the entirety of the combat system (with examples) for which there are not then lots of exceptions and additions (via feats, talents or whatever) in less pages than D20 then I think it goes a fair way to show that the system is "lighter" than D20 is.

I could also add that in my opinion all of those systems are lighter than D20.

Edited to add: Also if I recommended D20 to someone because I said it was "simple" or "light" then I'd expect a stout beating. However I will, and do, praise the detail and options that it gives.

I've had longer discussions about the grapple rules of D20 alone than I've taken to explain pretty much the entirety of the CoC system.

I am not suggesting that d20 is the most rules light system. But its way down at the rules light end. Most of those pages you complain about are combat feats, which no one player will be using more than a few of. Compare this with C&S, Harn, Rifts, Rolemaster or even GURPS or White Wolf. Splitting dice pools, multiple dice pools and so on. There are simpler systems out there, but d20 is way down the rules light end. To describe it as one of the most complex systems is way WAY off.

Even ignoring the feats and abilities, which to me a big part of why I like D20, the base combat rules are still among the most complicated (and therefore to me "heavier") of the games that I own.

If I had to stick a "heavy" or "light" label then D20 would definitely get "heavy" based upon the complexity of the rules, the time it takes me to teach the game to a player, the number of times I've seen the books have to be consulted in play and the books that I've had to lend to players between sessions so they can look into character options.

I've been GMing for over 20 years and using D20 for about 10, this isn't a question of experience or learning but of something simply being more detailed and therefore more complicated.

One thing I am quite keen to point out though is that the complexity and "heaviness" isn't, in my opinion, superfluous. It's a result of the options and detail that the system goes in to, all of which are things that I like.

 

[LucaCherstich]

As I already explained 10.000 times before (see above) my reasons for refusing to buy any non-d20 Conan products are different. Most of us Conan d20-lovers spended considerable amounts of money on rpgs (especially Conan rpg) and now it happens we are and which, therefore, cannot afford wasting more money on useless sourcebooks.

Do you really think the others didn't do the same? I've bought all Conan MGP products so far and I bet I'm not the only one, from what I've read on these forums... At 43, I have wife (and ex wife!), kids and job, so I suppose that makes me too a “real-world adult with real-world concerns on money”…

This pools is indicative, not a realistic staistical mean...otherwise we should assume that only abou 60 people in the world play Conan rpg!

I completely agree on this. Hopefully for Mongoose, the Conan game isn't only played by the 60 or so old geeks (that's including me! :wink that write on this forum. Maybe it was the poll that was too narrow at first, proposing only two drastic choices: Do or die… Maybe a broader range of possibilities would have helped to elevate the debate a bit above “D20 is great/D20 sucks”.

Anyways, it sounds more like an ultimatum to Mongoose than an open debate on the possible future of the game…

I can’t really agree also on the “Do It Yourself RPG” matter. Of course, in theory you could just read the novels/pastiches/comics and use whatever system you like. Actually, being a Conan GM is already time consuming (as I’m a “real-world adult with real-world concerns”, remember?:wink and I can really afford to study every book word by word, compiling notes and translating them in game terms. Everything has been so nicely compiled and expanded by the Mongoose boys and the stuff is really worth the price to me, even with the crunchy parts I won’t probably never use.

As for non stats books, I suppose from what they say that the D20 supporters (to make it short) didn’t buy books like (Return to the) Road of Kings, as they hold almost no system data… :mrgreen:

I'm very sorry, Hervè, if you felt offended.
Possibly my reference to "real-world adults" was a bit out of place but I said it only because in the real world I met and I know too many rpg-idealistic/maniacs which are definitvely adults 30 or 40 years old but which are maybe not married, or have no concerns about jobs, or have no responsabilities regarding family, etc or anything you could label as "real-world concerns for adults"... and spend tons of money of rpgs!
I do not want to say that I'm better that these people!
I STILL LIKE TO SPEND money on rpgs, I still do it, but I cannot afford doing it at the rates I used to do when I was a teenager in the early 1990s.
So I cannot allow myself to follow the Conan line if it leaves d20 and, if I could afford to buy more Conan sourcebooks, I like them to be compatible with the books I already have.
I simply cannot (and do not want to) manage another change of system, I just feel happy with d20 ( I think I played 80% of all the rpg systems created between the age of Gary Gygax' D&D and today).
At the end, all the rpg systems have their faults, and it is just a matter of what you feel adapt more to your style or better, which faults you feel the less....for me Conan rpg (modified d20) is perfect....and yes, I always thought Rolemaster with all its bloody tables was the most boring system in the world!!! But maybe somebody likes it....

 

[rabindranath72]

No, really. I guess I am going to leave it. Happy threading!

I thought you left. :twisted:


I always find it funny that people think rolemaster is more complex than d20. It takes a bit more effort to design a character, but the system is easy. D20 core mechanic for skills and attacks is pretty easy but some people have trouble with the feats and special rules. Still far from complex, but gives players some options. d20 sux in 3.5 but Conan has made it playable and fun.

I am a masochist and like to inflict the punishment of my presence to others :twisted:

Regarding Rolemaster...never liked it, but there is people who swears by it, it seems, and after all these years...whereas I wonder where the 3.5 variant of d20 will be in 2 or 3 years from now. From what I can tell, only d20 Conan and Pathfinder are still "alive" as 3.5-derived games.
Oh well, only time will tell.

 

[kintire]

I could also add that in my opinion all of those systems are lighter than D20.

Possibly. Fudge certainly is, d6 arguably is, and the cut down version of RQ without the locations that CoC uses probably is too. I note that you have listed CoC and Stormbringer as different systems, though, which is verging on double counting... I don't recall Pendragon so well, but my recolection is that it had quite a bit of added complexity.

But there are many MANY more which are far more complex. And I also think you are in danger of confusing complexity with options. I would describe d20 as a rules light system in actual play, while noting that the large variety of options can make character generation rather overwhelming for beginners.

 

[Oly]

I note that you have listed CoC and Stormbringer as different systems, though, which is verging on double counting...

Stormbringer is more complicated and detailed than CoC, it being tuned up for a fantasy melee combat heavy RPG, so I think that it is listable.

I don't recall Pendragon so well, but my recolection is that it had quite a bit of added complexity.

Pendragon is basically the CoC BRP system tweaked even further so as to be turned into a D20 based game. Yes there's some complexity but it's still a very simple and fluid game. An example is that all melee combat is turned into a single opposed role.

After only a few sessions my players basically understood the entirety of the combat rules and there are no real feat/ability exceptions to complicate it.

And I also think you are in danger of confusing complexity with options. I would describe d20 as a rules light system in actual play, while noting that the large variety of options can make character generation rather overwhelming for beginners.

In a way complexity is options, because those options by there very existence add complication that other systems don't have because they in turn do not have those options.

As I've already said not only are the base combat rules of Conan D20 far more complicated than any of the other games that I list but then the feats and abilities, which as you say does make character creation complicated, then impact on those combat rules with lots of new rules and exceptions.

It's those feats and abilities that often end up jotted down onto an index card to help the players out.

And it's those same feats and abilities that then complicate combat even further.

So yes the options that Conan D20 gives people (which are why I like the system) slows both combat and character creation/improvement down.

Personally I'm more than happy with that trade off, but I still wouldn't consider to call Conan D20 "light".

 

[Ichabod]

There's hundreds of game systems out there, lots lighter than d20, lots heavier. Some are more notable than others, of course. Others that could be used for comparison could include Hero, Unisystem, Tri-Stat, L5R, and so on. I assume Unisystem and Tri-Stat don't get much attention due to lacking a significant fantasy presence and L5R tries to model something very different from typical fantasy.

But, whatever. I do think that Conan is more likely to see arguments over what sort of system someone wants to use to model a game because it can fall in the middle to where different groups can go in different directions. A high fantasy genre isn't going to be modeled well by a crunchy system any more than a low fantasy genre would be modeled well by a fluffy one. Still, worrying about what system is lighter than another system is beside the point.

The breakdown of system popularity in the RPG/FRPG market is whatever it is, but it seems clear that it isn't nothing but d20 with some fringe lunatics, like it felt five years ago or whatever. Whether someone prefers d20 or not for a campaign is dependent upon what is desired out of a system. d20 is good for providing structure, for providing benchmarks, while not going overboard in simulationism. If those things are important to the group, I can see why it would be a top choice.

We have people in our group who consider it very important to follow rules and to know where their characters stand in terms of ability. Narrative flow and being able to go beyond the rules to make the story cooler aren't things that are remotely important to the majority, in fact they are discouraged. The mechanics form the story.

For people who want flexibility in their mechanics or to ignore them all together in the interest of furthering the story, who don't care where their characters stack up numberswise, or on the other end of the spectrum, want something highly simulationist, d20 isn't going to be as attractive. It still might get used for campaign play because character improvement is much easier to track when a character's abilities are well-defined.

One system isn't going to satisfy everyone. I can't even find one system to satisfy me as I want something incredibly light resolutionwise but heavier for character creation and experience to make building characters meaningful.

 

[Sutek]

I do not like D20 more than Conan, it is just that I do not want any other Conan that d20.
Furthermore it looks like even a few of d20 dislikers do not values enough the Conan fluff.....

Funny to mention that when all we got from this poll is a bunch a d20 lovers who will stop to buy Conan books if it moves to another system.
:lol:

And a lot of people are still missing the point about the user base and a possible switch to a more user friendly system.

W.

You read "newbies had trouble" and think "change to user friendly system."

I read "newbies had trouble" and think "dummass kids, probably, that spend too much time of friggin Facebook and WoW and have trouble adding without using their fingers, who think Conan is so goth, and very likely have some ammount of hair hanging in front of thier face. They also probably have no knowledge of what Conan is outside of the movies, but they were born more than a decade after even that came out."

Seriously, to have trouble grasping this game has nothing to do with it's complexity. This game is so bloody easy to understand that one would have to try to "not get it." Roll a die, look at the bonuses, add them up, and try to roll higher than another number. Hard? Complex? Not at all, and not the reason that Mongoose would be considering switching systems.

They want to see what 4e does versus other 3.5 support out there. Period. What is being discussed I would imaging is tantamount to part "fall back plan" part marketting strategy and part realistic acquiescence to the RPG trends in place since the 80s. 2-3 years is about the life of any system, with 3.X being one of the few exceptions.

Why?

Because it's good.

(I used the word, Herve - lol)

 

[warzen]

Seriously, to have trouble grasping this game has nothing to do with it's complexity. This game is so bloody easy to understand that one would have to try to "not get it." Roll a die, look at the bonuses, add them up, and try to roll higher than another number. Hard? Complex? Not at all, and not the reason that Mongoose would be considering switching systems.

DD3x and closely related games are systems with "build" in mind. A large majority of players want to have a powerfull character (else, we would just have level 1 described) and to do that, you need to plan in advance what you'll do with this PC. Because of the way d20 is working, with feats and prestige classes, you even have to know when the campaign is supposed to stop because what's the point of building a PC that will shine when reaching level 14 if the campaign will stop around level 10 ?

Of course, you can forget all that and don't plan anything but this is not why d20 was designed for, and you have to pray that the other players are doing the same, else you'll soon feel useless in the group.

The complexity of a system has nothing to do with rolling dices and adding numbers : every possible task in the world would be easy, because you just have to use your brain and move your body.

W.

 

[Hervé]

I'm very sorry, Hervé, if you felt offended.

No problem, pal. We're just exchanging ideas and nobody's life is at stake. That what forums are made for, aren't they? This would kinda boring if everybody always agreed on everything. We'll get conversations like these:

"I think this is great."
"Yeah, me too."
"You're right."
"I agree..."

At least we can discuss on primordial matters like "your system sucks, mine is great" and get answers like:

"I think this is great"
"I don't"
"you don't understand anything"
"No you're wrong and I'm right"

Very different, ain't it?

:wink:

 

[kintire]

After only a few sessions my players basically understood the entirety of the combat rules and there are no real feat/ability exceptions to complicate it.

After only a few sessions? I recently saw a new player intorduced to d20. She understood the combat system after a few rounds.

As I've already said not only are the base combat rules of Conan D20 far more complicated than any of the other games that I list

I'm sorry, this is false. The only way a case can be made that d20 is complicated is by bringing all the feats into it. The basic mechanic, roll 1d20, add bonus, get higher than difficulty number, is just as simple as any of the systems above and simpler than Fudge.

A large majority of players want to have a powerfull character (else, we would just have level 1 described) and to do that, you need to plan in advance what you'll do with this PC. Because of the way d20 is working, with feats and prestige classes, you even have to know when the campaign is supposed to stop because what's the point of building a PC that will shine when reaching level 14 if the campaign will stop around level 10 ?

We've never played like this. Usually, we've had characters who are essentially one class, with maybe a few dips into others, and we've never had any problems.

 

[warzen]

After only a few sessions my players basically understood the entirety of the combat rules and there are no real feat/ability exceptions to complicate it.

After only a few sessions? I recently saw a new player intorduced to d20. She understood the combat system after a few rounds.

She's brilliant to have understood and memorized all the AoO rules, the speciale maneuvers, usage of the bluff skill...etc in a few rounds.
But I fear you we're talking just about the basic mechanic of the system and not about all the option that gives d20 this special feel.

I sense she's like a new chess player: she memorized how to move the pieces on the board but haven't even heard the word "opening".
If I continue with the chess comparison, your line is "chess is easy, you just have to understand how to move 6 differents pieces" and I'm saying "chess is complex, you have to master openings, how to react to them..etc" (I'm taking an example, I'm not saying chess is simple or complex).

We'll never be able to agree if we're not talking about the same thing

A large majority of players want to have a powerfull character (else, we would just have level 1 described) and to do that, you need to plan in advance what you'll do with this PC. Because of the way d20 is working, with feats and prestige classes, you even have to know when the campaign is supposed to stop because what's the point of building a PC that will shine when reaching level 14 if the campaign will stop around level 10 ?

We've never played like this. Usually, we've had characters who are essentially one class, with maybe a few dips into others, and we've never had any problems.

Never ever go to DD4 then. You'll be quiet displeased by this new version of D&D.

W.

 

[Oly]

After only a few sessions? I recently saw a new player intorduced to d20. She understood the combat system after a few rounds.

When I say "understood" I mean that the players know all that there is to know about the combat system. They know every option that their character has and how it works. They don't need index cards with rules summaries on them and there's no flipping through books.

After 10 or so years of GMing D20 I still don't know all of the base combat rules by heart.

Of course in those other systems that's because there are less options for their characters but my point still stands.

As I've already said not only are the base combat rules of Conan D20 far more complicated than any of the other games that I list

I'm sorry, this is false. The only way a case can be made that d20 is complicated is by bringing all the feats into it. The basic mechanic, roll 1d20, add bonus, get higher than difficulty number, is just as simple as any of the systems above and simpler than Fudge.

Sure that very basic mechanic is simple. However look at all the other options in the Conan base combat rules. We've got flanking, attacks of opportunity, variable reach weapons, grapples, tripping, bull rushes, disarms, feints and so on and so forth. And that's not even touching upon all the combat manoeuvres.

Basically CoC manages to have it's entire combat system in about 7 pages to which there are no real exceptions in, Conan requires 35 not including the exceptions made by feats and abilities.

There are simply more rules for Conan, so it's more complicated, I don't see what the problem with saying that is. If you claim it's false to say that a 35 page partial combat system is no more complicated than a 7 page complete combat system then how would you compare them?

I would never praise the Conan system to a gaming friend by saying "oh it's rules light, you've love it." They'll have a quick look at the book and knowing a true rules light system, like CoC or something even lighter, and never take Conan seriously.

However what I can and do praise it for is it's detail and options, it's a meaty system that's not overly complicated. At it's heart there is a very simple and logical system, however layered over it are rules and exceptions to those rules, and then exceptions to those exceptions all of which will pop up in pretty much every combat you run.

The complexity and detail to me aren't a problem and I don't see why we should try and hide from them. It's not like we've got a Rolemaster type of game with tables of tables of tables or Twilight 2000 with it's calculator driven vehicle combat.

We have a detailed game with lots of tactical and character options for combat compared to something like CoC where pretty much your only option in combat is to just attack someone using your base combat skill.

If you're facing an armoured character in complicated Conan you might feint him to buy some time for a friend to come up, then you trip him, then you grapple him, then you pin him, then your friend does a finesse attack around his armour and kills him.

Great stuff! There's real rules and advantages and disadvantages to each of those tactical moves.

In simple CoC you roll against your weapon skill until one of you drops.

Exciting... (Please note that I also love the CoC system, though it's just not the one for me to run gritty melee combats with)

That is the Conan systems strength and let's be proud of it.

Yes it's big, yes it takes time to learn, yes there is lots of rules flipping and referencing for even experienced players and yes we can discuss exactly how attacks of opportunity work for hours but by Crom we love it!

 

[kintire]

She's brilliant to have understood and memorized all the AoO rules, the speciale maneuvers, usage of the bluff skill...etc in a few rounds.

Not really. They all boil down to the same thing. You roll a d20, add the bonuses, beat the DC... or not. The only differences are the results.. damage or an advantage in combat.

If I continue with the chess comparison, your line is "chess is easy, you just have to understand how to move 6 differents pieces" and I'm saying "chess is complex, you have to master openings, how to react to them..etc" (I'm taking an example, I'm not saying chess is simple or complex).

We'll never be able to agree if we're not talking about the same thing

Yes but we are taling about the system, which is how to move 6 pieces. Battlefield control and positioning is much more complicated, but that's true under any rules system (that can handle it). The system is really easy.

Never ever go to DD4 then. You'll be quiet displeased by this new version of D&D.

I have gone to DD4, and its even more like that. You can't even multiclass as much.

When I say "understood" I mean that the players know all that there is to know about the combat system. They know every option that their character has and how it works. They don't need index cards with rules summaries on them and there's no flipping through books.

And thats exactly what I mean.

But actually, you don't mean that. You mean know every option that exists in the entire system anywhere ever. Knowing every option that their character has is all you need.

Sure that very basic mechanic is simple. However look at all the other options in the Conan base combat rules. We've got flanking, attacks of opportunity, variable reach weapons, grapples, tripping, bull rushes, disarms, feints and so on and so forth. And that's not even touching upon all the combat manoeuvres.

And almost all of those things work exactly the same way. Roll d20, add bonus, beat difficulty. The only exceptions are flanking, which is easy, reach weapons, which are obvious and Attacks of Opportunity, which I've never seen anyone have trouble with.

There are simply more rules for Conan, so it's more complicated, I don't see what the problem with saying that is. If you claim it's false to say that a 35 page partial combat system is no more complicated than a 7 page complete combat system then how would you compare them?

More rules = more complicated does NOT follow, not in the sense of more page count in the rulebook. Because actually, there aren't more rules, there are more things you can do with the same rule. Yes there's lots of combat options, but they all work the same way. All you have to do is evisage the scene, decide what your best move is and do it. And then roll d20, add bonus, beat difficulty.

One caveat: grappling is a bit more complicated.

At it's heart there is a very simple and logical system, however layered over it are rules and exceptions to those rules, and then exceptions to those exceptions all of which will pop up in pretty much every combat you run.

No they won't. A specific subset of them will crop up based on what feats you yourself have, and you'll be familiar with those.