What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

[kintire]

In my thirty years or so of gaming, I've never encountered such a situation, where so many people thought the game engine didn't suit to the setting.

Now, i thought this was an odd quote, given the huge prevalence of system complaints throughout the hobby. But then, we plunge into bizarro world...

I never head of people wishing to change the system when playing Warhammer, Rifts or whatever... You only see this in D20.

:!: :!: :?: :shock: :shock:

RIFTS? You never heard of people wishing to change the system when playing RIFTS? Were you playing it in a space base on Pluto? Its one of the most complained about systems in history!

neither Chaosium, Ice, Palladium or White Wolf chose to abandon their game engine foe a new one. Never before a game system has been so much criticized (and not only on these forums!).

It gets worse... Chaosium has re-written its system over and over, ICE has (finally) abandoned TableMaster for the (even worse) HARP and White Wolf has also taken its base system and rewritten it... even worse. And this has been done among a steady volley of people pointing out the rather obvious fact that all these systems are rubbish. heck, its a measure of the degree to which the Conan system is loved that a full half of the people in this thread like it! Good luck getting that for pretty much any other.

My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)

Nothing. I am pointing out what is actually wrong with the rather simple D20 system. And I've answered your points before. Character generation takes hours only if you are using all of the ten thousand splatbooks, and is actually very simple. The time is taken by the large number of options, not the difficulty of doing those things. As for creating NPCs... lets see how long it takes.

Attack +10, AC25, 1d8+6 damage 40 HPS. Spot/listen +6, Sense motive +2. Feats used: Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise, Improved Trip.

Bingo. About forty seconds.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Quote:
Too many people have an " a priori" attitude vs D20.

Quote:
Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!


Quite contradictory, ain't it?

Not at all.
"Too many people" and "how much Conan d20 is loved" are not exact numbers (which we still do not know).
No trustable statistics are here presented for lovers/haters of d20.
This pools is indicative, not a realistic staistical mean...otherwise we should assume that only abou 60 people in the world play Conan rpg!
In internet polls some people are more visible than others.

Quote:
Half of the people in this thread (like me!) will stop buying Conan if not d20...

It just proves something. These people like more D20 than they love the Conan setting.

Never said that.
As I already explained 10.000 times before (see above) my reasons for refusing to buy any non-d20 Conan products are different. Most of us Conan d20-lovers spended considerable amounts of money on rpgs (especially Conan rpg) and now it happens we are real-world adults with real-world concerns on money and which, therefore, cannot afford wasting more money on useless sourcebooks.

Quote:
In my thirty years or so of gaming, I've never encountered such a situation, where so many people thought the game engine didn't suit to the setting.


Now, i thought this was an odd quote, given the huge prevalence of system complaints throughout the hobby. But then, we plunge into bizarro world...

Quote:
I never head of people wishing to change the system when playing Warhammer, Rifts or whatever... You only see this in D20.




RIFTS? You never heard of people wishing to change the system when playing RIFTS? Were you playing it in a space base on Pluto? Its one of the most complained about systems in history!

Quote:
neither Chaosium, Ice, Palladium or White Wolf chose to abandon their game engine foe a new one. Never before a game system has been so much criticized (and not only on these forums!).


It gets worse... Chaosium has re-written its system over and over, ICE has (finally) abandoned TableMaster for the (even worse) HARP and White Wolf has also taken its base system and rewritten it... even worse. And this has been done among a steady volley of people pointing out the rather obvious fact that all these systems are rubbish. heck, its a measure of the degree to which the Conan system is loved that a full half of the people in this thread like it! Good luck getting that for pretty much any other.

Quote:
My points are completely lost, I see (I would really like to understand what magic has to do with the complexity of the system...)


Nothing. I am pointing out what is actually wrong with the rather simple D20 system. And I've answered your points before. Character generation takes hours only if you are using all of the ten thousand splatbooks, and is actually very simple. The time is taken by the large number of options, not the difficulty of doing those things. As for creating NPCs... lets see how long it takes.

Attack +10, AC25, 1d8+6 damage 40 HPS. Spot/listen +6, Sense motive +2. Feats used: Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise, Improved Trip.

Bingo. About forty seconds.

I agree!!
This is how an old, expert player should speak!

 

[warzen]

Nothing. I am pointing out what is actually wrong with the rather simple D20 system.

d20 system is one of the most complex one as it is working by exception. There's no rules in d20, just a book of exceptions.

To quote DD4:
"Every class, race, feat, power, and monster in the D&D game lets you break the rules in some way. These can be very minor ways: Most characters don’t know how to use longbows, but every elf does. These exceptions can also appear in very significant ways: A swing with a sword normally does a few points of damage, but a high-level fighter can use a power that can fell multiple monsters in a single blow. All these game elements are little ways of breaking the rules—and most of the books published for the D&D game are full of these game elements."

This is true for the d20 in general, not DD4 specific.

Compare that to some simpler system like the old Starwars D6 (which have been complexified after multiple editions) and you'll know what I mean.

W.

 

[rabindranath72]

It gets worse... Chaosium has re-written its system over and over, ICE has (finally) abandoned TableMaster for the (even worse) HARP and White Wolf has also taken its base system and rewritten it...

BRP is practically always the same: core skills on a percent basis, core attributes on 3d6, roll under on a % dice, plus "setting specific" rules. The new BRP book shows it all, as it was and actually is now. (note: I do not like BRP very much)
Regarding RoleMaster...you must be confused, ICE has re-issued Classic Rolemaster and essentially abandoned HARP, since it was too similar to d20 for its users, it seems.

Attack +10, AC25, 1d8+6 damage 40 HPS. Spot/listen +6, Sense motive +2. Feats used: Power Attack, Cleave, Expertise, Improved Trip.

Oh, that's nice. Which class is it? Which level? Is it a "legal" character? (as in: built according to the rules).
Because if it is not, I too can concoct something similar in probably the same or less time, being a long-time AD&D player. And if you are going to build things as you like, then you do not need 50% to 80% of the book, then you may well be playing a rules-light game (which also takes less space and weighs less!).

Well, what can I see...we will live, and see what Mongoose does.

 

[Sutek]

....Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!

Except MGP needs to switch to a more user friendly system to extend the user base.
And I fully support them on this move.

W.

No they don't. You need to find a system you like and make it work with all of the Conan fluff material that's out there.

 

[LucaCherstich]

we already have a good system with good crunch and furthermore Mongoose mixed with it a lot of good Conan fluff....anybody guess which system I'm talking about?

 

[flatscan]

....Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!

Except MGP needs to switch to a more user friendly system to extend the user base.
And I fully support them on this move.

W.

Did you not listen to the Matt Sprange interview posted earlier in this thread? He said the Conan books were still selling WELL. You d20 dislikers are apparently already buying the books regardless of the system and as I and several others have voted and said, Mongoose will LOSE customers by changing systems. The bottom line supports keeping the game in the system as is.

 

[rabindranath72]

....Mongoose people, please notice how much Conan d20 is still loved!!!!

Except MGP needs to switch to a more user friendly system to extend the user base.
And I fully support them on this move.

W.

Did you not listen to the Matt Sprange interview posted earlier in this thread? He said the Conan books were still selling WELL. You d20 dislikers are apparently already buying the books regardless of the system and as I and several others have voted and said, Mongoose will LOSE customers by changing systems. The bottom line supports keeping the game in the system as is.

Apparently you too missed something:

Running Conan at our club this week, I noticed some of the Conan virgins having trouble with the character creation system. D20 is great if you know the rules inside out, as you can focus in on many parts of your character - but all those options are just confusing for newbies.

Not necessarily a deal breaker, but this is something we have to at least take note of. What raised the issue, however, is that we are currently working on some tweaks to the RuneQuest rules. If they turn out as good as they look (think Traveller amounts of awesome), then we are going to have to do some serious soul-searching about changing the system. After all, Conan does deserve the best.

And not all d20 dislikers are buying the books. I am not buying them, for example.

 

[Strom]

rabin - listen to the podcast - Mongoose isn't looking to do anything for 2-3 years. This poll certainly isn't moving that date up any, IMO.

Lets hope we are all still here in 2-3 years. :lol:

 

[lastbesthope]

I spoke to Matt recently and mentioned this thread, hed gave no indication that Conan was going to move systems.

LBH

 

[Hervé]

we already have a good system with good crunch and furthermore Mongoose mixed with it a lot of good Conan fluff....anybody guess which system I'm talking about?

No I don't. It's probably because of the word "good" in your sentence...

 

[LucaCherstich]

Quote:
Half of the people in this thread (like me!) will stop buying Conan if not d20...

It just proves something. These people like more D20 than they love the Conan setting.
Quote:
...another half will keep on buying WHATEVER the system...

These people just prove they're playing the game BECAUSE it's Conan, not only because a silly set of rules (be it D20 or not...).

I do not like D20 more than Conan, it is just that I do not want any other Conan that d20.
Furthermore it looks like even a few of d20 dislikers do not values enough the Conan fluff.....

And not all d20 dislikers are buying the books. I am not buying them, for example.

In any case these are good news:

I spoke to Matt recently and mentioned this thread, hed gave no indication that Conan was going to move systems.

LBH

 

[flatscan]

Apparently you too missed something:

And not all d20 dislikers are buying the books. I am not buying them, for example.

I did not miss that. He said take note, and there's thought of changing systems. Whether you buy or not is irrelevant as the Conan line is currently selling well without you. There's no need to fix what is not broken (regarding the bottom line, not opinions on the d20 system mechanics). I've bought every book in the line so far and intend to continue doing so unless Mongoose abandons the current system. As will my players, whom all have a copy of the main book and some of the others as well.

 

[warzen]

I do not like D20 more than Conan, it is just that I do not want any other Conan that d20.
Furthermore it looks like even a few of d20 dislikers do not values enough the Conan fluff.....

Funny to mention that when all we got from this poll is a bunch a d20 lovers who will stop to buy Conan books if it moves to another system.
:lol:

And a lot of people are still missing the point about the user base and a possible switch to a more user friendly system.

W.

 

[rabindranath72]

rabin - listen to the podcast - Mongoose isn't looking to do anything for 2-3 years. This poll certainly isn't moving that date up any, IMO.

Lets hope we are all still here in 2-3 years. :lol:

Ah sure, but my faith is not limited to here and now, I plan in advance :lol:

Aw come on d20 guys, you have had toys with which to play for the last years, will you let us non-d20-ers have our toys, too?

 

[rabindranath72]

Furthermore it looks like even a few of d20 dislikers do not values enough the Conan fluff.....

Hmmm...I suppose I have not been clear on the topic. It's not the fluff (which I can take from Howard's tales). It's the interaction of fluff with rules. That I would like to see under a different system.
That's all.

 

[rabindranath72]

I propose a poll for this thread: most useless thread ever!



No, really. I guess I am going to leave it. Happy threading!

 

[Clovenhoof]

d20 system is one of the most complex one as it is working by exception. There's no rules in d20, just a book of exception
This is true for the d20 in general, not DD4 specific.

Compare that to some simpler system like the old Starwars D6 (which have been complexified after multiple editions) and you'll know what I mean.

This is pretty much true, and it can sometimes be complicated / confusing / annoying, but at the bottom line it is a good thing. Exceptions are what makes conflict resolution interesting. A straight system without any special stunts eventually result in "rolling down" your opponent, sort of like two guys standing toe to toe and taking turns at slapping each other until one falls over. It's boring.

I find it much more interesting if everyone has one or two aces up their sleeves, because that's the spice that makes a fight worth fighting.

However, designers should be careful not to go overboard with exceptions. That is indeed a problem of certain D20 supplements.
A rule and an exception to that rule is fine. Exceptions to Exceptions (X2X) are bad juju. An example:
Rule: starting a Grapple draws an AoO
Exception: Improved Grapple or Improved Grab negate this AoO
Exception to Exception: Feat XYZ allows an AoO even if the attacker has an ability that normally negates the AoO.

The first exception is fine, but the X2X is just plain cheesy and I simply wouldn't allow it, neither for PC, NPC or monster. Once you go there and introduce X2Xs, there's nothing that prevents anyone from making an exception to an exception to an exception. Bah.

 

[kintire]

Oh, that's nice. Which class is it? Which level? Is it a "legal" character? (as in: built according to the rules).

Who cares? It is, roughly, a 5th level soldier. He's going to be in game for one roll if the PC's stealth beats his spot or bluff beats his sense motive, or maybe 2 combat rounds if not. Who on the planet actually bothers with more than this for 99% of all NPCs? Sure, use the full generation system for the major NPCs if you really want to, but the vast majority need no more than this.

Because if it is not, I too can concoct something similar in probably the same or less time, being a long-time AD&D player.

well, why aren't you then?

And if you are going to build things as you like, then you do not need 50% to 80% of the book, then you may well be playing a rules-light game (which also takes less space and weighs less!).

D20 IS a rules light game. It has a lot of options in the character generation system, but in play even the PCs will be using little more than the stat block above.

d20 system is one of the most complex one as it is working by exception. There's no rules in d20, just a book of exceptions.

Oh nonsense. There are piles of systems out there FAR more complex than D20. Try Chivalry and Sorcery for example. And as for all these exceptions, they are explained in each feat, and any player will only care about a couple of them.

 

[rabindranath72]

Oh, that's nice. Which class is it? Which level? Is it a "legal" character? (as in: built according to the rules).

Who cares? It is, roughly, a 5th level soldier. He's going to be in game for one roll if the PC's stealth beats his spot or bluff beats his sense motive, or maybe 2 combat rounds if not. Who on the planet actually bothers with more than this for 99% of all NPCs? Sure, use the full generation system for the major NPCs if you really want to, but the vast majority need no more than this.

Because if it is not, I too can concoct something similar in probably the same or less time, being a long-time AD&D player.

well, why aren't you then?

And if you are going to build things as you like, then you do not need 50% to 80% of the book, then you may well be playing a rules-light game (which also takes less space and weighs less!).

D20 IS a rules light game. It has a lot of options in the character generation system, but in play even the PCs will be using little more than the stat block above.

d20 system is one of the most complex one as it is working by exception. There's no rules in d20, just a book of exceptions.

Oh nonsense. There are piles of systems out there FAR more complex than D20. Try Chivalry and Sorcery for example. And as for all these exceptions, they are explained in each feat, and any player will only care about a couple of them.

We are on the same boat w.r.t. needless complexity when it comes to DM-handled things, then. In fact, that's exactly how I do things when I am tired of "following the books" (i.e. 99% of the time).
Problem is, a novice player/DM has no idea that he has the "power" to do so, since no where in the books is written that the DM has absolute power, instead being handled a huge amount of rules. The book itself defies this kind of (reasonable and workable) logic: what's the point of having NPC classes at all?