What if Conan leaves d20 for anotehr system?

[Sutek]

That's why we start with the NPC classes when playing D&D. It's like a tabula rasa, and then the players get to really shape their characters from the ground up, and get extra HP and Skills to boot.

Personally, I prefer the D20 3.5 generation to most games for Fantasy. I think all the griping about it is being done by people who just want to trash the system for it's (very few) faults, instead of just playing the game within the system and dealing with the inconsistencies (or ignoring them outright).

Now, if Mongoose were to release a second alternate mechanic, that's fine. But I feel that the investment has been made on their part and ours, and that I'd be in favor of Mongoose developers taking a long, hard look at 3.5 and bringing it up to a true D20 4.0. Not "True D20", mind you, but a "4.0" upgrade for the system, rather than a system re-think or simple house cleaning re-print like Conan 2.0 is.

 

[Oly]

Personally, I prefer the D20 3.5 generation to most games for Fantasy. I think all the griping about it is being done by people who just want to trash the system for it's (very few) faults, instead of just playing the game within the system and dealing with the inconsistencies (or ignoring them outright).

I like D20 but even I have to admit that it's character generation and improvement process is complicated, involved and requires a degree of planning and foresight to build your character.

Compare that to the other fantasy game that I'm playing at the moment, Pendragon. Character generation in that is incredibly simple and there is no hidden "dead end" that you can take your character down that in time blocks a development that you wanted.

So to say the only "griping" is done by D20 detractors just isn't accurate and it dismisses perfectly valid arguments out of hand.

However it is important to realise that D20's complexity of character generation and improvement is due to the options that it offers you.

In Pendragon characters can, and do, end up much alike and fight in very similar styles.

In D20 with the feats and abilities characters develop a unique combat style and feel very different from one another.

To achieve that there's a price, and that is the pain for newbie players and the in depth knowledge that the system encourages players to have to make the most of their character.

Personally I couldn't imagine doing Conan in anything other than D20, though that's not to say that I don't gripe about it

 

[Sutek]

Yeah, Pendragon is Columbia Games, isn't it? For a more realistic Feudal type RPG I like their system (in the more specific form of Hârnmaster). It's very tight. But for more fantastic adventures, I prefer D20 for a lot of reasons. For me it's just the right mix of complexity and flexibility. Then again, I don't ever worry too much about "building" and instead pick a race/class that Im interested in and see where the adventure takes me.

 

[Oly]

Yeah, Pendragon is Columbia Games, isn't it? For a more realistic Feudal type RPG I like their system (in the more specific form of Hârnmaster). It's very tight. But for more fantastic adventures, I prefer D20 for a lot of reasons. For me it's just the right mix of complexity and flexibility. Then again, I don't ever worry too much about "building" and instead pick a race/class that Im interested in and see where the adventure takes me.

Pendragon was published by Chaosium intially, then it passed through Green Knight to White Wolf.

I've got no idea if it's at all similar to Harnmaster. At it's hearts it's a much stripped down and amended form of Chaosium's BRP system. Somewhat interestingly it was written by the co-creater of Rune Quest who, amongst his other intentions, wanted it to be mechanically simpler.

For many D20 players they do have an idea of the character they'd like to become in their minds and it is incredibly frustrating when they realise they took a wrong option and now have trouble getting there.

Yes we as GMs can allow them to fiddle with their character but that then means even more bookwork as players try to find the right path to one ability, feat or prestige class.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't me knocking D20. It's just that I know it takes more "rule work" and book loaning for my players to shape their D20 characters than it does for other games.

So anyway right now I'm happy to see Conan stay as D20, I want the grit and detail of combat that it offers. However that said I did bring my last campaign to a close once we got over level 10 as it did become a real number crunching exercise.

That said I'm also curious though to see what Mongoose's Rune Quest has to offer. If it's a light system, like it's somewhat cousin Pendragon, then I don't think it's what I'll be wanting. However if it is grittier then I could be persuaded.

 

[Brisco]

... we are currently working on some tweaks to the RuneQuest rules. If they turn out as good as they look (think Traveller amounts of awesome), then we are going to have to do some serious soul-searching about changing the system.

Thanks for the heads up. When can we expect to see the tweaked RuneQuest? Will it be a new edition, or errata for the existing rules?

 

[Trantor]

<snip>
...
Running Conan at our club this week, I noticed some of the Conan virgins having trouble with the character creation system. D20 is great if you know the rules inside out, as you can focus in on many parts of your character - but all those options are just confusing for newbies.
...<snip>

As a decade long GURPS Player, I know the difficulties of bringing newbies beyond the "character generation border". GURPS took another way to solve this problem, they made pre-built standard characters with defined possibilities to fit th character to your needs. If you want to play a Scout, f.i., in GURPS Traveller, you can build one from the scratch OR you can take a template with a 80%-90% finished Scout and fit the rest to your needs.

In Conan's Players Guide, you did the same with equipment packages - why not use it with character packages? Could make a nice book (a bit like the appendix of the worlds largest city (or was it dungeon)), with all possible Characters on 1st Level, with infos for customization and little boxes with numbers for 3rd, 5t, 7th lvl etc. - so newbies can choose to play a Kithayan (spell?) bowman for instance, fit the name and some values to their likings and play.

Sorry for bad grammar/language, english is not my main language, it is early in the morning after a short night and a long and good Cthulhu game and lost sanity always kills my language skills ... (Iäääää)

 

[rabindranath72]

Hi guys,

Good little debate this, we are keeping an eye on it

As for our input, Conan is _never_ going to go 4e, and will continue in its present format for at _least_ the year and a half - we have absolutely no plans to change whatsoever.

That said. . .

Running Conan at our club this week, I noticed some of the Conan virgins having trouble with the character creation system. D20 is great if you know the rules inside out, as you can focus in on many parts of your character - but all those options are just confusing for newbies.

Not necessarily a deal breaker, but this is something we have to at least take note of. What raised the issue, however, is that we are currently working on some tweaks to the RuneQuest rules. If they turn out as good as they look (think Traveller amounts of awesome), then we are going to have to do some serious soul-searching about changing the system. After all, Conan does deserve the best.

At the end of the day, and as we have done before, we will likely leave this decision in the hands of you chaps. You'll get a chance to see what we are doing with RuneQuest, and will be able to make up your own minds as to whether Conan needs that treatment, or whether he is better off where he currently is.

All comments welcome, as always!

I have been talking with Gary Gygax before he died about using Lejendary Adventures for a Conan game, and he said that it could definitely be done, and he gave some precious ideas for the tweaks to apply to LA.
LA is a wonderful, easy-to-use and flexible system, and it would be nice if Conan was ported-over to this system. Now that Mongoose is going to print LA, it might be a nice choice.

 

[rabindranath72]

Yeah, Pendragon is Columbia Games, isn't it? For a more realistic Feudal type RPG I like their system (in the more specific form of Hârnmaster). It's very tight. But for more fantastic adventures, I prefer D20 for a lot of reasons. For me it's just the right mix of complexity and flexibility. Then again, I don't ever worry too much about "building" and instead pick a race/class that Im interested in and see where the adventure takes me.

Pendragon was published by Chaosium intially, then it passed through Green Knight to White Wolf.

I've got no idea if it's at all similar to Harnmaster. At it's hearts it's a much stripped down and amended form of Chaosium's BRP system. Somewhat interestingly it was written by the co-creater of Rune Quest who, amongst his other intentions, wanted it to be mechanically simpler.

For many D20 players they do have an idea of the character they'd like to become in their minds and it is incredibly frustrating when they realise they took a wrong option and now have trouble getting there.

Yes we as GMs can allow them to fiddle with their character but that then means even more bookwork as players try to find the right path to one ability, feat or prestige class.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't me knocking D20. It's just that I know it takes more "rule work" and book loaning for my players to shape their D20 characters than it does for other games.

So anyway right now I'm happy to see Conan stay as D20, I want the grit and detail of combat that it offers. However that said I did bring my last campaign to a close once we got over level 10 as it did become a real number crunching exercise.

That said I'm also curious though to see what Mongoose's Rune Quest has to offer. If it's a light system, like it's somewhat cousin Pendragon, then I don't think it's what I'll be wanting. However if it is grittier then I could be persuaded.

Pendragon (i.e. BRP) would be another nice choice. It's not only character generation in d20 that is cumbersome, it's also all the things around it, from clunky combat system, to handling of feats and skills. Definitely not a choice for people who would like a fast, immersive experience in the world of Conan without the game reducing to endless book referencing and book-keeping.

 

[Da Boss]

I have large portions of the D20 Conan range -for the fluff

I have played it wit those rules once and it confirmed my/our dislike for the system

I have since ran it with with my version of the BRP system and a tailored version of Eden's Buffy /Angel system which worked well as its very dramatic. I am not a fan of the complexity of the RQ system - hit locations/ fatigue etc but its preferable to D20.

I have now played 4th Ed - its OK I suppose - nothing great about it for me................some nice ideas here and there but prefer alot of other game systems. Its very inflexible I found and the GM has to work hard to adapt "interesting" ideas that are not part of the game make up.

Quite enjoyed Spirit of the Century which again may work. As you can tell I like fast and loose systems and not rules heavy so I am bias.

Stormbringer this weekend (using the GW edition and Elric with some bits and pieces of the other editions and BRP mixed in) - I'd better write the scenario tonight ! :shock:

 

[Oly]

Pendragon (i.e. BRP) would be another nice choice. It's not only character generation in d20 that is cumbersome, it's also all the things around it, from clunky combat system, to handling of feats and skills. Definitely not a choice for people who would like a fast, immersive experience in the world of Conan without the game reducing to endless book referencing and book-keeping.

There's not much of BRP left in Pendragon, Elric (mentioned by the poster below) is a much better example of fantasy BRP.

No D20's not fast but I would argue that it can be pretty immersive.

Pendragon's more about why the fight occurred than the fight itself.

Conan, to me, is more about the fight itself.

Quick and simple abstracted Pendragon style combat really doesn't feel like Conan to me.

I want detail, blood and tactics.

Even Pendragon's very low move scores somewhat hinder a free flowing dramatic fight.

I'm a big fan of Pendragon, Stormbringer and D20, they've each got their own flavour and to me their own purpose.

I really wouldn't want to see Conan go too rules light...

 

[rabindranath72]

Well, when you read an Howard story, you are not that immersed into tactics. It is all fast-flowing imagery. Not the sort of thing you get with d20, what with calculating positions, bonuses etc. Conan decides in split-seconds what to do. If a player gets the time to look at the map, position himself, look at the others, evaluate the best course for moving etc...When a combat lasts half an hour or more, you have not reproduced the feel of an Howardian fight at all. You may feel different, but for me, it is all about the immediateness and suspension of belief. And d20 is all except immediateness. YMMV of course, but rules light is the key for me.

 

[Trantor]

... then you should use Warhammer FRP Rules 1st edition (2nd got too sloww imho) for your battles - but the fatality rate will explode

 

[rabindranath72]

... then you should use Warhammer FRP Rules 1st edition (2nd got too sloww imho) for your battles - but the fatality rate will explode

I love it 8)

EDIT: actually, WFRP2e is not much slower than 1e, and is much more streamlined.

 

[SnowDog]

Actually, I would prefer another system. Something light and fast but maybe just a tad more crunch than in Savage World (for Conan).

 

[Kersus]

I did not vote as I don't agree with either option. I would prefer it to have it's own system or one more tailored to the setting at least. Either way, so many of the books could simply be labelled as universal supplements and they would have far more value.

Certainly for the rulebook and the adventures, one needs a system. Perhaps an in house system is better than another company's.

K

 

[Brisco]

... we are currently working on some tweaks to the RuneQuest rules. If they turn out as good as they look (think Traveller amounts of awesome), then we are going to have to do some serious soul-searching about changing the system.

Thanks for the heads up. When can we expect to see the tweaked RuneQuest? Will it be a new edition, or errata for the existing rules?

I last bought RuneQuest in 1993 (Avalon Hill). Has it changed much since then? I'm looking at the old book now. Character generation seem less involved than D20, not having to bother with feats. If the magic system for Conan remained the same, it looks like it would be a good marriage. I've always wanted to play a duck Barbarian.

 

[LucaCherstich]

Well, when you read an Howard story, you are not that immersed into tactics. It is all fast-flowing imagery. Not the sort of thing you get with d20, what with calculating positions, bonuses etc. Conan decides in split-seconds what to do. If a player gets the time to look at the map, position himself, look at the others, evaluate the best course for moving etc...When a combat lasts half an hour or more, you have not reproduced the feel of an Howardian fight at all. You may feel different, but for me, it is all about the immediateness and suspension of belief. And d20 is all except immediateness. YMMV of course, but rules light is the key for me.

I do not know if it is just me but I think that d20 (when all the bonuses are calculated BEFORE and written on the forms) is one of the systems when you get more the fast "rhytm" of the combat with its rapid sequence of attack roll - damage roll - fullstop!
Just two rolls: WHY do you find it slow?
Off course with the Conan modification one has to think about manouvres but, usually, my players know already from the beginning what they want or can do so they do not waste time in thinking about what to do...I do not think that my players are smarter than other people....or maybe they are?
With Conan Ogl there is also the problem of AP vs armor "slowing" the pace of combat....but does it really make the combat slow?
After the first combat my players get used to that and things run smoothly in any case.
And regarding maps: until 4 years ago I used to play without maps, I know it sound crazy but my players enjoyed it.
I now use them (with minis or with pieces of paper) and I find they are great to visualize complicated combats WHATEVER the system.

 

[Clovenhoof]

As opposed to many users on this board, I am not playing "Conan" in the Hyborian Age, I just use the Conan system because, while not perfect, it offers what I want in a sword&sorcery game. The main advantages being firstly, indepence from magical gadgets (as opposed to D&D) and secondly, attractive and exclusive special abilities (as opposed to classless systems, where everyone can learn anything).

 

[Oly]

I do not know if it is just me but I think that d20 (when all the bonuses are calculated BEFORE and written on the forms) is one of the systems when you get more the fast "rhytm" of the combat with its rapid sequence of attack roll - damage roll - fullstop!
Just two rolls: WHY do you find it slow?

Not all the modifiers are written down, there are a slew of additional modifiers that might come into use. I personally don't play a game where all the modifiers that always apply in combat aren't written down, that said I don't play a game where there are as many modifiers (well other than Twilight 2000 1st Edition, now that was a beast).

Aside from the combat manoeuvres and AP changes that you do mention you then get the great number of feats that can come into effect before or after any attack, each of those feats having it's own set of mini-rules. Then you've got attacks of opportunity as well, sometimes being triggered immediately sometimes depending on what someone does after their move.

And as for the grapple rules or the other "non standard" attacks such as "trip", oh my word...

I game with experienced D20 players and we have rules summary cards and another copy of the rulebook on their side of the table and it can still become clunky, mechanical and complicated.

Compared to systems like Pendragon, or something really light like Over the Edge, combat in Conan is slow and complicated. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. It's an inevitable consequence of comparison with systems that simply don't have that many rules.

Sure if two characters "just" stand there and hit each other with using basic attacks only and no other options it is pretty simple and quick, however D20 gives the characters lots of options, and people then tend to use those options.

I had a fight the other night in my Pendragon session that took about 30 minutes tops, I know that in my Conan game the equivalent "power level" combat would have to be allowed at least twice as much time to run and far more preparation time both to make the NPC and to prepare a few quick "powers" for them to use in return.

However as to if that slowness if good or bad, well that's opinions.

Personally in my Conan games I want options and detail, which means additional rules, which makes it slower.

That's neither good nor bad, just how it is.

Trying to say that one of D20's advantages compared to other systems is that it's quick and simple is not only wrong but really downplaying it's strengths.

 

[rabindranath72]

Just two rolls: WHY do you find it slow?

What Oly said.
Plus, I like a free-wheeling DMing style, where a character can attempt anything, and I set the chances of success based on circumstances.
I do not even need skills nor feats. Usually the basic definitions of a class, its core abilities and perhaps a system of secondary skills are good enough for me (like C&C or AD&D).
Doing this with d20 amounts to discarding about 80% of the book.
So, as Oly said, it is a matter of personal preference about the objective complexity of the system. Rules for me are the means to an end. If I can use an easier way of getting to that end, I prefer it.
The last Conan game I GMed was run using the Basic D&D rules, and the end result was the same as what we did with Conan d20, with 1/10th the complexity.

Anyway, I REALLY hope to see Conan under a different banner. I stopped buying supplements when the crunch to fluff ratio became too high.