What happens to the body during a spirit combat rd?

[simonh]

I've got my copy now (very pleased) and I am a bit concerned that the spirit combat rules make it far too easy for a shaman to take out his opponents. Although only High Shamans can personaly force-discorporate enemies, every Shaman's fetch can do this so it's available as a tactic to every Shaman.

The effects are that the targets lose control of their body leaving them physically defenceless, so the effect is similar to the results of a madness spell, both can be resisted using Persistence, but consider that a Madness spell can also be defended against using Countermagic Shield, or a Shield runespell, etc. Also the effects of a Madness spell can be neutralised e.g. by Countermagic and similar spells. There are no comparable defences or counterspells against being forcibly discorporated, and there's no effective way to counteract the effect once it's been applied.

On the other hand, of course we want to have spirit combat be an important part of the game. I can see why the ability to force-discorporate enemies was made easy to facilitate having spirit combats, but I don't think the practical consequence of making them completely helpless physically have been properly thought through.

The source of the problem is requiring that all participants in a spirit combat must be discorporate. I don't really see why this restriction has been applied.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Mongoose Pete]

I've got my copy now (very pleased)

Excellent.

I am a bit concerned that the spirit combat rules make it far too easy for a shaman to take out his opponents. Although only High Shamans can personaly force-discorporate enemies, every Shaman's fetch can do this so it's available as a tactic to every Shaman.

The discorporate ability of high shaman is somewhat limited in applicability, since unwilling victims need to wait around whilst he enters a trance. But it could be done as part of a trap I suppose. Even a shaman's fetch can only affect a single target though, so (clever roleplaying aside) its not really that much of an advantage if facing many enemies at once.

In addition, as you rightly observed, discorporation whether by spirit or high-shaman can still be resisted by an opposed test against Persistence. So from that perspective it is no worse than many sorcery and divine spells.

There are no comparable defences or counterspells against being forcibly discorporated, and there's no effective way to counteract the effect once it's been applied.

If you look more closely at the available spells, there is Spirit Resistance for sorcerers, Spirit Block for priests and other spirits to guard a spirit magician.

On the other hand, of course we want to have spirit combat be an important part of the game. I can see why the ability to force-discorporate enemies was made easy to facilitate having spirit combats, but I don't think the practical consequence of making them completely helpless physically have been properly thought through.

Like all things in a campaign, game balance ultimately comes down to what a GM wants to throw at the party, or vice versa. If you take a closer look at the revised magic, you'll see a multitude of ways characters can be incapacitated by a single spell or poison, so its not just spirit combat.

Realistically, this is why you don't go upsetting the shaman in Prax unless you've got the full support of your god, temple and community behind you. A lone character is subject to the fate of a lucky roll or how many hero points he has left. An adventuring gang, can cover each other in a situation where one or two might succumb to spirits.

The source of the problem is requiring that all participants in a spirit combat must be discorporate. I don't really see why this restriction has been applied.

Quite simply, it was designed to reflect real world shamanistic traditions, and more importantly, to make spirits very, very scary. Thus making them equal to the now much powerful Divine and Sorcery systems.

(That is to say, we were fed up with RQ shamanism being a second string magic tradition. )

Of course, as always, you can easily ignore the necessity for spirit combat to occur on the spirit plane. YRQMV.

 

[simonh]

There are no comparable defences or counterspells against being forcibly discorporated, and there's no effective way to counteract the effect once it's been applied.

If you look more closely at the available spells, there is Spirit Resistance for sorcerers, Spirit Block for priests and other spirits to guard a spirit magician.

My understanding is that those spells only protect during the ensuing spirit combat, they do not protect against being forcibly discorporated, leaving your body helpless.

Like all things in a campaign, game balance ultimately comes down to what a GM wants to throw at the party, or vice versa. If you take a closer look at the revised magic, you'll see a multitude of ways characters can be incapacitated by a single spell or poison, so its not just spirit combat.

Sure, but the checks and balances in the game provide for defences from and recovery from those attacks. Being discorporated is a one-shot instant physical incapacitation with only a bare resistance roll and no countermeasures available. There should be some way to be able to actively protect yourself against this.

(That is to say, we were fed up with RQ shamanism being a second string magic tradition. )

Of course, as always, you can easily ignore the necessity for spirit combat to occur on the spirit plane. YRQMV.

Sure, I must say overall I love what I'm seeing here. I hate to be negative in my first responses to what's clearly a dramatic step forward for RQ. Overall the game now looks like it has the polish of RQ3 together with the sheer fun and exuberance of the old RQ2.

I'm particularly interested in Shamanism because my longest played and most loved character in my history of Gloranthan gaming was an RQ3 Shaman. I've got an eye for these issues because I can see exactly how I would exploit these options in play.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Mongoose Pete]

My understanding is that those spells only protect during the ensuing spirit combat, they do not protect against being forcibly discorporated, leaving your body helpless.

Ah. You should consider any spell which prevents harm or contact by a spirit, also blocks its discorporation ability too. That was the intent.

When it says (something along the lines of) the spirit dragging your soul into the otherworld, it was supposed to imply that the spirit literally reaches into you, grabs your soul by the short and curlies, and drags it into/onto the Spirit Plane.

Does that clarify it a bit better?

 

[gran_orco]

Now that we are talking about spells that protect the recipient from be damaged by a spirit, I want to do a question, if you let me.
My players (how must I translate to your language "the players who play with me"? I do it like in spanish, is the sentence correct? ) are debating about the spirit resistance spell and its functionality...
It says that the spell blocks spirits from coming into contact with the recipient. If the recipient has a spirit bound in an enchantment that is in contact with the skin -like a ring, or a tatoo-, should the spirit leave it?
Does the same thing happens with shamans who has fetishes or nature spirits possessing him?

Or maybe is this spell used only for prevent damage or discorporate intents?

 

[simonh]

Does that clarify it a bit better?

Much, thanks. That makes excellent sense.

Simon Hibbs

 

[andyl]

"My players" is fine in English and most GMs would say either my players or my group.

If Spirit Resistance blocked all spirits rather than malign (and I note that Spirit Block explicitly says malign in its writeup) then it can also be an interesting offensive spell to cast on spirit worshipers.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Perhaps followed up by 'Holdfast'?

 

[dbhoward]

Ah. You should consider any spell which prevents harm or contact by a spirit, also blocks its discorporation ability too. That was the intent.

When it says (something along the lines of) the spirit dragging your soul into the otherworld, it was supposed to imply that the spirit literally reaches into you, grabs your soul by the short and curlies, and drags it into/onto the Spirit Plane.

Does that clarify it a bit better?

Thanks for clearing this up. I was under the same misapprehension that involuntary Discorporation could not be defended against. Rereading the rules, yes, it is clear that it can, although it is not spelled out directly.

I have never had to do so much exegesis on a rulebook before!