What happens if... we double or 1.5x the listed armor values

[rust]

I'm curious if any of you gents have changed armour values in your game to make it more effective, and if so, how?

I have not changed the armour values, for two reasons. First, in my
setting only a limited number of types of comparatively low techno-
logy weapons and armours are available, and the RAW data for them
seem fine. Second, I actually want the characters to be vulnerable,
because this encourages the players to think of more creative uses
of their characters' skills than to start a fight whenever there is any
problem. I would perhaps think differently if my setting would be fo-
cussed on combat with high technology gear, but for my purposes
increased armour values would almost certainly be counterproduc-
tive.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Dont think we're seeing eye to eye Shawn because you seem to question my players intent/scenario whenever we come to a disagreement; which has no relevance on my discussion/the reason we discuss this as a gaming group.

There is still some validity in questioning play style to better answer your problems.

And what does all this added toy stuff have to do with the story or role-play? What are the goals of the PCs and NPCs in your game group?

Are good questions. But I agree

How did the players paint themselves into a corner where their only option is to shoot their way into another painted corner?

Some questions seam a bit critical, but if you've side stepped answering the questions, ones only option is to start guessing and make assumptions.

As I pointed out earlier, from comments made in the publication and just the results of armor vs damage math, the author of the CSC had the opinion that weapons should be better than armor. Combat is deadly and something to be avoided. Perhaps more role playing and less die rolling. To me, that may be part of their personal or gaming groups playing style.

Yours (the OP) and/or your groups preference seams to lean in the opposite direction. Preferring better armor values because you like longer battles where tactics may play a bigger role than just who has the bigger gun and gets in the first shot (and thus not who has the best armor needs to be an issue too)? Characters that are licensed mercenaries vs traders? Something else?

 

[Nerhesi]

An ax or WWII gun would not penetrate such armor.

Let's say I hit the suit with my ax and nothing happens. Do you seriously expect me to get another chance to swing it at the guy? And why would I even be going after such a guy at close range without a suit of my own?

Actually both have very realistic chances of penetrating. A bolt action ww2 rifle will penetrate more than half the time (this is non DSAP ammo. AP ammo). 14 damage, 4 pen, + effect. That means, youre usually damaging the guy inside. The axe is 4 points less but that still means above a 10% chance. Looks like Zee Germans (of both Gothic and WW2 variety) have just outdone combat/power/battledress armour.

As for the Tank - thats the point I was making. Shooting something significantly out of your league with a certain weapon does not result in lucky strikes. Again, this is just our take on things.

 

[Nerhesi]

Yours and/or your groups preference seams to lean in the opposite direction. Preferring better armor values because you like longer battles where tactics may play a bigger role than just who has the bigger gun and gets in the first shot (and thus not who has the best armor needs to be an issue too)? Characters that are licensed mercenaries vs traders? Something else?

They are definitely more explorers and mercs then traders. We've sometimes went sessions without a single firefight - some characters are less scrupulous than others and sometimes they decide to be a little darker...

It's not so much about what happens on a regular basis as it is about "will this be a good investment? Am I paying $$$ for barely more protection? Does this make sense that a 3.5 mil or even a 350000 super high tech suit isn't much better then some ballistic flak and armored cloth? Or that it's completely defeated by basic TL5-8 weaponry??

That is the reasoning/questions - not "well I'm going to fight so I don't want to die so Mr GM please raise my armor stats"

 

[barnest2]

Well at that point... where are they getting their hands on this stuff? Battledress, combat armour, DSAP rounds, these are all High end military gear, not explorer grade. Look in the CSC, there are a set of rather basic rules on weapon licenses which can help you control what they and their enemies get their hands on. Of course, the black market is different, but then where are the black marketeers getting it

Yes, combat is lethal. But that's traveller I'm afraid. Characters can die an awful lot if they're not behind cover and even then sometimes

 

[Old timer]

The battle dress in the core and the CSC are both frankly under armoured anyway, i believe that some time ago on one of these thread, Matthew himself suggested adding two points to the value of battle dress (making the core examples 18 and 20 points). Using the vehicle book rules for building power armour, you can make suits with much more armour for less then the 3 or so million for battle dress in the MRB (i built one that had 24 points of armour for just over 2 million).
I think the CSC AP rules are poorly thought out, and the new armour rules in that book for layering are also poor. A simple solution might be to allow such armours as TL10 cloth, protect suits and diplomatic vests to be worn under armour with no penalty, which is a cheap way to give you a bit more armour and protection (+3, 4 or 5 extra points).
The tech level thing is a bit misleading as well, AP rounds for TL8 or less personal weapons, ok, but DSAP for a modern assault rifle (TL7-8) not sure those exist. Also, a bolt action rifle of WW2 penetrates modern body armour (Lee Enfield No 4 for example), so one of those penetrating TL8-10 armour not so much a stretch, especially if provided with AP or some how DSAP.
Higher tech weapons, well lasers can be protected from by ablative armour, or the oddly described reflec armour (which is assume does not actually reflect the laser bolt, but scatters it) which is an option for many types of armour, Gauss rifles are meant to be for punching through heavy armours like TL14+ combat armour and even battle dress to some extent. And for the big boys, like PGMP, better to be in a TL14+ tank, or no where near some one wielding such a weapon

 

[CosmicGamer]

Does this make sense that a 3.5 mil or even a 350000 super high tech suit isn't much better then some ballistic flak and armored cloth? Or that it's completely defeated by basic TL5-8 weaponry??

I'm not sure what you mean by "isn't much better". From the core rules, the lowest tech combat armor is twice the protection of the highest tech flak jacket and provides many more features.

You mention 3.5 mil which would be 18 armor Battle Dress. Personally I think it doesn't make sense to say Battle Dress isn't much better than flak armor when it provides three times the armor. 12 points more protection. That would be an average of over 3d6 more damage protection!

Here is one view to perhaps consider. Are modern combat planes all that much better armored than lower tech ones?

Perhaps a view from a different angle? Part, perhaps not a small part, of the purpose and cost for the higher tech armor is the gear that goes into it. Military grade secure communications, built-in computer running an Expert Tactics (military) program, sensors, environmental protection, the increase in user’s speed and strength, the interfaces with medical to automatically apply first aid and so on. Your not just throwing on a version of medieval armor made with higher tech materials.

I'm not saying you can't do things your own way. I'm just answering your question. Yes, I do think it makes sense. Does it make 100% sense such that it should be this way in all systems in all TU's. Of course not. Peoples opinions may vary. I'm ok with whoever makes these decisions IMTU thinking it makes sense - perhaps being on the board of directors for one company or another or getting kick backs or thinking soldiers are easily replaced and not too concerned with the ultimate armor, or whatever. I do believe the typical (typical such as the every day armor for the troops vs specific purpose, use only in certain situations armor for a bomb squad or a swat team) highest tech armor of current day is far from impervious to a large number of low tech weapons. I have no problem with higher tech armor being susceptible to lower tech weapons. How about a good old pit trap dug really deep and armor without grav assist?

I can wrap my head around the gear being a big part of what makes it high tech and not just fancy new materials. I have no problem with someone thinking otherwise. I can even provide suggestions that I wouldn't even use myself.

 

[rust]

Part, perhaps not a small part, of the purpose and cost for the higher tech armor is the gear that goes into it.

Using the Vehicles supplement's battle dress chapter to design a
rather basic diving hardsuit, I found that I have to spend about
300,000 Credits for the chassis and the various electronics alone,
without any weapons and actually without any armour.

 

[Nerhesi]

I'm not sure what you mean by "isn't much better". From the core rules, the lowest tech combat armor is twice the protection of the highest tech flak jacket and provides many more features.

You're correct - my bad/hyperbole

More examples:

It is significantly more protection flak, but still paper vs weapons that are literally 3 times less TL and less than 100th of the cost. 3000 credits, TL 5, 4d6+6 + effect on burst. 20+ dmg on average.

LAG Rifle, 3500 credits, also TL 5, 6d6 + effect, 21+ dmg on average.

I'm glad someone pointed out that matt did say the values were low. I'm going to look at the vehicles book for power armor and see what results those give.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

And this will be applied to "archaic armors" as found in CSC as well? Yes, they are used in my games. OFTEN. Hmm...

Keeping in mind the highest Effect one can generate is 11
(Rolling 12 + Skill Level 4 (Generally best in the world) + 3DM (from STR or DEX 15) -8 )
but more likely just 1
(Rolling 7 + Skill Level 1 (trained with some skill) + 1DM (from STR or DEX 9) -8 )


My knight in Full Plate at x1.5 for 9 points of protection (5 from projectiles) will be on average:
Immune to Small Bows 1D6 (4.5 pts)
Immune to Unarmed and other 1D6/2D6 Melee Weapons (4.5/8 pts)
Maybe... :roll:

My knight in Full Plate at x2 for 12 points of protection (6 from projectiles) will be:
Immune to Small Bows 1D6 and Repeating Crowsbows 1D6+2 (4.5/6.5 pts)
Immune to Unarmed and other 1D6/2D6/3D6 Melee Weapons (4.5/8/11.5 pts)
Maybe not... :evil:

 

[Old timer]

LAG rifle, otherwise known as the anit tank rifle of WW1, and early WW2, so no surprise that thing punches through combat armour . I guess the TL8 version is an anti material weapon, so again no surprise it penetrates combat armour.

 

[rust]

... but still paper vs weapons that are literally 3 times less TL and less than 100th of the cost.

I do not really see a problem there, when the guy in advanced
armour fails to spot the guy with the LAG despite his suit's sen-
sors and fails to take him out in time despite his superior wea-
ponry, his death is primarily the result of his lack of vital skills,
not of the damage potential of the LAG.

 

[F33D]

What you are describing is an AP round, a far different thing from DSAP.

Due to reasons of physics with that size of projectile, there is no DSAP rounds for small arms. That's why that example.

 

[DickTurpin]

:lol: For small arms (what we are talking about) the equivalent is a jacketed round with a penetrator of hardened steel, tungsten, etc. The "jacket" peals away when hitting the armour and the penetrator continues on through the armour.

What you are describing is an AP round, a far different thing from DSAP. Yes, those are available and could be fairly common. They would only bypass 3 or 4 points of armor and do not cause the armor rules to break down. Putting Super-AP (or God help us all), Ultra-AP ammunition into general circulation is what makes body armor ratings seem to be insufficient.

There are many examples of cheap, easily available gear (both in core and supply catalogue) that will penetrate 3.5 Million credit battle-dress consistently.

Based on your statement, and somehow artificially limiting DSAP - would you still not think it would be several magnitudes more common than several-million-dollar battle dress? Which it would then defeat for near negligible cost?

More common? Yes. Several magnitudes more common? Definitely not! The ammo does not yet exist for small arms so your argument that TL 5 weapons can penetrate TL 11+ armors is inaccurate. However, a TL 5 weapon, using TL 8+ ammo, specifically designed to punch through vehicle armor, can indeed penetrate TL 11+ personal armor. This is not a rules design flaw IMO; it reflects that the ammo does indeed do the job for which it was designed.

Armor does not provide absolute immunity to weapons; it merely lessens the damage it causes. Take a look at ballistic vests available today. None of the manufacturers claim them to be "Bullet Proof". They are designed to limit penetration of handgun bullets and shrapnel. Rifle bullets, even standard ball ammo, will penetrate nearly every time.

Super-AP and Ultra-AP ammo are designed to defeat vehicle armor, originally in artillery and battle tank main weapons. The CSC assumes (with some justification) that in the distant future these technologies will be available for small arms as well. But that does not mean that everyone will be carrying Super-AP ammo exclusively. There is no need that justifies the extra cost in normal combat. The extra armor penetration would be wasted so why pay ten times the cost to get the same result?

Super-AP ammo is designed and built to penetrate heavy armor. It is the stuff you make characters hunt for in the (hopefully rare) instances where they actually need to fight something that heavily armored. Make them throw Streetwise rolls like crazy to find a source, make them pay through the nose and owe favors to shady underworld figures or devious government agents in return for access to a few clips of the exotic magic bullets that can actually defeat the berserk combat AI or the Battledress-clad guards around the secret installation that they have to explore.

 

[dragoner]

This is regarding Personal Armor.

From a previous thread (I believe it is on rpg.net open rpg forums), people were going through and talking about what would you want to change if there is an MgT 2.0.

One of the items that kept getting mentioned was armor. I'm curious if any of you gents have changed armour values in your game to make it more effective, and if so, how?

I'm considering a multiplier of 1.5 or 2.0. Thoughts?

I leave it RAW, in particular that I reward creative thinking over brute force, just like reality.

BUT, if what you are looking for is to make some armors tougher, you could just create special versions with higher AV.

 

[Nerhesi]

Well - thanks to my recent purchase of Supplement 5-6, I can see that the designers (along with Matts comment) realised the problem/changed the situation/call it what you want but did something.

Battle Dress (at TL 12-15) now ranges from 12 armor (ultra light battle dress for around $600,000 +1 str, +2 dex) to 38 armor (+7 str -1 dex for $3,500,500)

This is much much more comfortable for my group as it does not cause contorted facial expressions at the prospect of LMG bursts taking out battle-dress (except the lighter/less armored variants).

For comparison purposes for any who are interested:

Core Rule book TL 14 Battle Dress = 18 armor, +6 str +4 dex = 3.5 mil creds
Battle Dress base heavy armor TL 15 = 18 armor, +6 str, +4 dex = 1.7 mil. For 2.3 mil it becomes 28 armor (near max) for that chassis/tech level.

Tons of more modification options as well as.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And how much is a 4cm RAM grenade

HEAP - just what you need when you are a TL10 merc playing cat and mouse with a fire team of Impies, just because you have discovered their secret Ancient ship excavation in underground catacombs.

Their TL15 BD could shrug off all our small arms stuff, but that RAM grenade was a leveller.

 

[Nerhesi]

Funny enough, there is an armor option that increase Armor vs Plasma, Fusion and HEAP weaponry by a value equal to TL.

Which is great! But unless you're in a TL 15 ultra heavy, 55 armor suit, you'll probably still be penetrated

 

[F33D]

Battle Dress (at TL 12-15) now ranges from 12 armor (ultra light battle dress for around $600,000 +1 str, +2 dex) to 38 armor (+7 str -1 dex for $3,500,500)

This is much much more comfortable for my group as it does not cause contorted facial expressions at the prospect of LMG bursts taking out battle-dress (except the lighter/less armored variants).

MUCH better.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

An ax or WWII gun would not penetrate such armor.

Let's say I hit the suit with my ax and nothing happens. Do you seriously expect me to get another chance to swing it at the guy? And why would I even be going after such a guy at close range without a suit of my own?

Actually both have very realistic chances of penetrating. A bolt action ww2 rifle will penetrate more than half the time (this is non DSAP ammo. AP ammo). 14 damage, 4 pen, + effect. That means, youre usually damaging the guy inside. The axe is 4 points less but that still means above a 10% chance. Looks like Zee Germans (of both Gothic and WW2 variety) have just outdone combat/power/battledress armour.

As for the Tank - thats the point I was making. Shooting something significantly out of your league with a certain weapon does not result in lucky strikes. Again, this is just our take on things.

Which ax? Which page?

They are definitely more explorers and mercs then traders. We've sometimes went sessions without a single firefight - some characters are less scrupulous than others and sometimes they decide to be a little darker...

It's not so much about what happens on a regular basis as it is about "will this be a good investment? Am I paying $$$ for barely more protection? Does this make sense that a 3.5 mil or even a 350000 super high tech suit isn't much better then some ballistic flak and armored cloth? Or that it's completely defeated by basic TL5-8 weaponry??

That is the reasoning/questions - not "well I'm going to fight so I don't want to die so Mr GM please raise my armor stats"

Ok. So these are power gamers that min/max rather than role-play. Wargamers are not allowed in my Traveller games.