What about space mine

[cliffbates65]

Several places in the editions of High Guard and TCS from Mongoose (purchaced by DriveThruRPG lately by me) I have seen mention of mines and minesweepers. But in both High Guard and TCS not really much about them is given. I think this has been one of the most under-used tool in HG/TCS the mining of certain jump point locations to insure any invading fleet gets wackked big time as they jump into system. They might not kill the cap ships but they will do lots of damage to the Escorts and Auxiliaries and give the SDBs and System Monitors (or if Navy units are in system this gives them time to get up and going to deal with them) enough time to intercept and engage.

Specific rules about the design, types and effects of mines. 2-4 tons ought to be the norm. With avionics and comms and thrusters to keep pattern and be controlled. Weapon loads etc.

Then there needs to certain rules for ships, esp the escort and auxiliary ships tasked to deploy and sweep them. [And also 15 ton drone to deploy and collect and sweep]. There needs to be unit modules for such ships. Tools to control, deploy and sweep mines.

Repulsers would work.. but that would require 50ton bays and that would mean a 4-5000kt ship.

Just a thought.

 

[phavoc]

I would expect space 'mines' to be lightly modified torpedoes/missiles with a little something added to it for passive IFF sensors (or just plain movement or whatever they are set for).

Mines would really only be effective protecting specific areas that you want to force the enemy to come through. Otherwise the odds of encountering one should be small.

I'm not sure this will make it into the book, but it would make for a great article in say Freelance Traveller and let people use/adopt as they choose.

 

[Reynard]

I remember one of the Mongoose supplements mention naval forces will seed potential entry points with small asteroids. A very cost effective means to deter opponents by the use of their own movement against them and at least hampering movement.

 

[phavoc]

How would you seed entry points when there are no warp points or other specific arrival points. Ships that aren't arriving at high speed can easily dodge an asteroid.

 

[Condottiere]

Combination of active and passive systems.

Space is vast, though.

 

[Reynard]

We've had the discussion elsewhere about ships screaming in at full velocity yet we see the tactic seldom used. The mention of asteroid seeding explains why, cheap rocks making a barrier during times of war. Jump exits are somewhat predictable as a ship or fleet enters and exits in a relative straight line with an accurate jump. The possible starting systems a ship or fleet would use gives the possible exit regions. Those areas are widely seeded and rocks are far cheaper than manufactured mines and their tenders. They don't have to be huge rocks either, just enough that kinetic energy of a high speed collision can be disastrous while their size and inert qualities make them hard to detect.

All this forces ships and fleets to lose any element of surprise or tactical advantage by speed at the 100d mark and that's why most fleets enter at ranges far from the target allowing local defenses to prepare and engage. Ships exiting at very low velocities at the 100d become vulnerable with spotters pointing them out for nearby defense squadrons or orbital bases and fighters. Remember fleets don't always appear simultaneously.

All because of a few well placed rocks.

 

[phavoc]

I dunno how 'predictable' that could be. An opposing enemy could simply boost for a day on a perpendicular course and radically change the entry position. You would run out of asteroids before you could cover them all. An enemy player could easily spend time coming in from a different angle and render the sapce maginot line useless. Or just jump out 1 light hour further.

No, static defenses like that should never be of any help on the defense. Not unless they were very close to the planet you are trying to protect. And even then there's going to be a realistic distance at which it's pointless to try and place fixed passive defenses.

And lets not forget EVERYTHING is in motion, including the planets and systems. You'd probably have to continually nudge those asteroids to get them to maintain proper position in a shell around your world.

 

[Reynard]

Since Mongoose Traveller says it's possible then the reality of Traveller makes it possible to 'reasonably' predict approximate exit points to attempt such a tactic. You don't have to super saturate an area but being done frequently enough to achieve a significant amount of success over the centuries will make any fleet a little cautious. Also, unless there is very good recon and intel, your attacking fleet would not know where or IF there are rock fields. That's a lot like land based minefields or IEDs placed where there's the best predicted traffic of the enemy. Once again, this is why Traveller has always emphasized fleets exiting away from prime targets and you said it too, "Or just jump out 1 light hour further.".

"An opposing enemy could simply boost for a day on a perpendicular course and radically change the entry position."

If enemy vessels must vector in any direction other than at the target then the *threat* of a rock field also achieved its mission. They have lost time and probably surprise as they need to revector, hopefully not angling into the rock field they aren't sure is there.

Remember not every system is going to plant rock gardens unless there's an actual or potential threat, they are an important target and they have the resources such as a ready supply and the vessels to move and tend.

"And lets not forget EVERYTHING is in motion, including the planets and systems. You'd probably have to continually nudge those asteroids to get them to maintain proper position in a shell around your world."

Having cheap tenders repositioning a few rogues is a good buy. Most of those rocks will also be following planetary motions and orbits to 'stay on course'. And again, these rock fields are few in number denying or hampering the most significant exit points AND they are a threat by leaving an enemy never absolutely sure they are in fact there.

And I will agree the rock field is not perfect as it is static and useless once exited. It is a good strategic element.

Back to the space mine and minefield. CB65 is right, these are the active type field weapon similar to remote anti-tank or anti-aircraft ordinance launcher today. They could seed a jump point and hide waiting by themselves or be hidden within a rock field. Imagine going slow to avoid damage from asteroids then suddenly have a loud signal broadcasting your location or your escorts start taking hits from nowhere.

I looked over the MgT2 HG mine rules. You can also make great use of the Standard Mine around military starbases and weapon platforms by placing them to weapon ranges favorable to the base or used as a fighter screens. Screening a base or platform that actually defends a target object makes them more cost effective.

You really don't need a lot of detail about mines and minefields. They are static once placed and mostly that happens well before battles. I'm not sure how often in Traveller we expect to see the Romulan Nuclear Space Mine tactic. *cough*players*cough* Other than that, the mine rules feel complete except there should be a rule set for possible detection and mines around bases could also be controlled remotely. Would their size and passive, inert qualities make them near impossible to detect or might it be a Formitable Electronics(Sensors) skill check?

 

[AndrewW]

You really don't need a lot of detail about mines and minefields. They are static once placed and mostly that happens well before battles. I'm not sure how often in Traveller we expect to see the Romulan Nuclear Space Mine tactic. *cough*players*cough*

There's also the B5 Rangers tactic, could put a space mine in say that cargo you are sending over to the pirates.

 

[Reynard]

That definitely suggests hard to detect compared to maybe a rigged ship's missile or an explosive charge. Still, hmmm...

 

[phavoc]

I still don't know how you are supposed to 'reasonably' predict something that can't really be predicted. The prediction on where your emergence point is desired, sure. But trying to figure out the most 'likely' path an attacker might enter seems nigh impossible. The underlying question would be "how"? If you were prescient, sure. Otherwise... not so much. A badly worded statement in a rule book does not a good rule make.

And remember, Traveller doesn't have warp points. That was something I threw out to state that they did not. IF this was say Starfire, then oh yeah! Seeding warp points with mines would be totally reasonable! In the starfire universe you could not put them on the emergence points because of tidal forces.

Floating rocks that needed the occassional nudge are much cheaper than missiles/mines. You would only deploy mines if you felt threatened or if tensions were escalated (Maybe a front-line base could have some ready all the time). But it's an expense to maintain them because they are electronic and at some point have to be serviced. Old-school contact mines get deployed and often forgotten about - much to people's misery after the war is over. With space mines you could hopefully find them, but even so, you'd not want a few 'missed' for fear of it attacking a civilian ship (or a military one) if it malfunctioned after being left in space for a long period.

Intelligence gathering would be easy-peasy. Unless you were at war a regular civvy spy ship cargo run would find the rocks (though not mines). And attackers get to control the time of the attack, so really, boosting a day, or even a week to get a different emergence angle still means the defenders are surprised. If the asteroids purpose is meant to delay an attacking enemy from a high-speed entry, they will fail in that, too, because of how you can orient your entry angles. Plus a few well-placed nukes from the vanguard will blow a nice hole in the asteroid field. Being "forced" to pop into realspace just 1 light-minute further isn't much of a deterrent. And fleets emerge at a distance speciflcally because of the vagaries of jump space and not knowing which ships aren't going to arrive at the same time - even with fleet jumps there are stragglers. I think being able to catch a defender totally unprepared with their fleet at dock is pretty much an impossibility in the Traveller universe. No Pearl Harbors.

Yes, once you put a rock in place it will tend to stay there. Until it encounters another gravity field, which will nudge it off course. Depending on when/where planets are, this might be annual rock roundup, or less often. The joys of gravity!

You bring up a good point in regards to how do you detect them? Right now missiles are detected the turn they are launched. A mine is also a missile... but it's not using active sensors and it's a tiny thing compared to a ship. So until it's activated I would say it should be a difficult or formidable thing to find. Plus to find it would require ACTIVE sensors, as passive sensors should never be able to see it.

 

[Reynard]

Also remember a missile has a bright flare of a reaction trail while a mine... sits and watches passively. Even at visual ranges it is extremely tiny in the black of space and probably painted dark. That's why I think Formidable to find.

 

[Reynard]

Problem here about the predictability of jump points is my fault. I've gone through nearly all editions of Traveller and know where the references to jump mechanics, including jumps entry and exit rules, are which does also include Mongoose's reference. Mongoose, bless them, have tried to keep Traveller simple and easy so such things as we are discussing are conjecture, subjective and optional and reality has very little to do with any of this either! As such, if we decide jump points are too random and too spread then rocks are indeed useless and we forget Mongoose ever suggested in their game it is otherwise. Same for mines which are then solely for base defense.

 

[phavoc]

Also remember a missile has a bright flare of a reaction trail while a mine... sits and watches passively. Even at visual ranges it is extremely tiny in the black of space and probably painted dark. That's why I think Formidable to find.

Yes, exactly. Something as tiny as a missile, or even a torpedo, is pretty invisible in the vastness of space. A little extra anti-radar coating and it gets even harder to see.

Which actually might justify having a 'mine' being no more than a missile pod or some sort that has the passive sensors, controls, etc. as well as the anti-radar coating and then fires off a missile or three or five or however many it carries at the target. That would actually solve a number of technical problems too because you could offload all kinds of maintenance and responsibilities to the carrier pod and leave the missiles/torps alone from a rules perspective. I need to write a few ideas down..

Problem here about the predictability of jump points is my fault. I've gone through nearly all editions of Traveller and know where the references to jump mechanics, including jumps entry and exit rules, are which does also include Mongoose's reference. Mongoose, bless them, have tried to keep Traveller simple and easy so such things as we are discussing are conjecture, subjective and optional and reality has very little to do with any of this either! As such, if we decide jump points are too random and too spread then rocks are indeed useless and we forget Mongoose ever suggested in their game it is otherwise. Same for mines which are then solely for base defense.

Yes, here's what's in the core rule book:

Commercial starships usually make two Jumps per month. They spend one week in Jump, followed by one week in the star system, travelling from the Jump point to the local world, refuelling, marketing cargo, finding passengers, leaving the starport and proceeding to a Jump point again. The week in the system usually provides some time for crew recreation and wandering around the planet.

Non-commercial ships usually follow the same schedule of one week in Jump and one week in a system. If haste is called for, a ship may refuel at a gas giant immediately and re-Jump right away. This allows the ship to make one Jump per week but makes no provision for cargo, passengers, or local stops. - bolding mine.

So indeed the book references a jump "point". However I think you can interpret this both ways. In the first paragraph it mentions "jump point". Which possibly implies a physical area from which ships jump or emerge. But that concept also would be included in the original explanation of jumping from CT (and previous editions) that reference a ship traveling to a distance of 100D to jump.

If you look at it with the 2nd paragraph (bolded), it would imply that jump points may be a phenomena existing with any planet - obviously at the 100D limit. However the text itself would not support that idea if you also accept that you can arrive anywhere within a system.

CRB141 talks about jump travel:

A ship can only safely Jump when it is more than one hundred diameters distant from any object. A vessel could only Jump away from Earth when it is more than 1.27 million kilometres distant (as well as 140 million kilometres away from Sol and 300,000 kilometres away from the Moon)...

You'll notice that there is no mention of a specific jump point here. In games like Starfire jump points are very specific and inherent to the gaming system. I would posit that the use of the label "jump point" is not a specific reference to any specific area within a system or near a planet by which ships come and go.

Technically the rules are very clear that any object of gravitational significance between jump point and emergence point can collapse a jump bubble. Which would mean navigation can be complicated, especially if you are travelling with multiple star systems in your path. However the game doesn't do much more than mention it as an issue. I suppose one could say the navigational complexity is reflected in the nav plotting rolls and the jump emergence rolls.

Which is the long version of why I don't think Traveller has actual jump "points".

 

[Condottiere]

Tactically, an enemy squadron can enter above or below the system plane.

 

[phavoc]

Tactically, an enemy squadron can enter above or below the system plane.

Of course. It actually makes a lot more sense for pretty much all traffic to enter/exist above/below the system plane because they are far less likely to encounter space debris. Plus there's probably more spatial advantages for arriving/departing that way to avoid planets and such.