There been a real big push lately about automation in ships and drone ships and it does Really make sense. First the game is about the players not some robotic drone ships. Second the rules especially for Jump travel discourages this type of ship -4 for plotting the jump and -4 if unmanned for a total of -8 that’s huge you’d lose more ships than you get. Even if you have personal aboard that -4 is still there, if you have the plot checked over you might as well have a person plot the jump. While I can see robotic drones used in system and that even makes sense in high traffic or fully exploited systems it doesn’t make much sense in most systems (there simply not enough system traffic).
What’s with the Automation
- Thread starter tytalan
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Autopilot seems a given.
Astrogation is where you fall off a cliff, into a rabbit hole.
Astrogation is where you fall off a cliff, into a rabbit hole.
Fluffy Bunny Feet
Emperor Mongoose
Automation the new piracy. Hack the ship to deliver the cargo to you not its customere.
A good argument not to use automation
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
I suspect I'm a big part of this.
For me, it's because they fascinate me. I want to push them more into the mainstream. Just because I'm pushing it doesn't make it a thing in Charted Space. I'm doing me and everyone else can do themselves.
mavikfelna
Cosmic Mongoose
Because automation makes a lot of sense for things that aren't players. And with the right tech it's quite easy to overcome that -8 penalty for a reasonable amount of tech and money. And having a single individual, like a Hiver, aboard with remote operations skill drops the penalty to -2 means there are low tech ways to improve it
Also, because the rules for Hiver automation are so bad and so egregiously out of character for their history and setup from previous editions of the game. This has been my hill to die on for the last month since I tried to build a Hiver ship that could function as a viable trader while still being automated and could not without using it and using Robot Handbook rules instead.
Also, because the rules for Hiver automation are so bad and so egregiously out of character for their history and setup from previous editions of the game. This has been my hill to die on for the last month since I tried to build a Hiver ship that could function as a viable trader while still being automated and could not without using it and using Robot Handbook rules instead.
I think you missed the point check out the Hiver Merchant career they don’t fly merchant ships that’s what clients races are for “ Some Hivers specialise in various aspects of mercantile activity. This can mean acting as a deal-maker such as a starport broker, taking a more behind-the scenes role as an economic analyst or accountant, or obtaining money through what others might call questionable means as a con-person.” Pg 268 AoCS 2. Your trying to make something that shouldn’t exist a Hiver merchant wouldn’t be using an automated ship they would use a ship ran by client races since they themselves will have no skills for piloting ships. And like I told you before neither Human or K’Kree automation can do physical work they are Software based with a limited hardware support in the K’Kree case. Hiver Automation is both software and Hardware based and capable of things like repairing the ship.
mavikfelna
Cosmic Mongoose
Why wouldn't a Hiver act as a merchant? It's a perfect role to be manipulative in. Also, Hiver client races can use Hiver ships sometimes.
And the rules already say you're wrong about K'kree automation being just software based. It has physical equipment that can do maintenance and repairs, it says so right in the rules and implies it because of the tonnage requirements for the package.
No they never say it can repair damage in fact this is what it says about the different positions “ A basic operations package replaces pilots, engineers and astrogators and thus allows the ship to manoeuvre (a pilot function), operate its sensors (pilot or astrogator) and control its power systems (engineer) “
Never said the wouldn’t in fact it’s a career but this is the description “ Some Hivers specialise in various aspects of mercantile activity. This can mean acting as a deal-maker such as a starport broker, taking a more behind-the scenes role as an economic analyst or accountant, or obtaining money through what others might call questionable means as a con-person.“. You can be a merchant with out running a ship
mavikfelna
Cosmic Mongoose
The full quote from the paragraph you mention and the one above it:
K’kree Virtual Crew packages are not created to replace
single crewmembers but are a complete system allowing
the craft to carry out its intended role without any
personnel aboard. For this reason they take up space
within the hull and are considered a component rather
than being purely a software system. A Virtual Crew
package requires a computer with sufficient Bandwidth
to run successfully.
K’kree Virtual Crew packages allow normal functions
of the crew positions they replace to be carried out
without requiring additional software. A basic operations
package replaces pilots, engineers and astrogators and
thus allows the ship to manoeuvre (a pilot function),
operate its sensors (pilot or astrogator) and control its
power systems (engineer) without requiring additional
software. This vessel could not fire weapons, however as
this is a gunner function and not covered by the basic
operations package.
The crews role includes repair and functions such as that of Steward, which requires a presence to cook, clean and otherwise watch after the passengers. If you're replacing Engineers, Mechanics, Stewards and Medics, with no expectation that a physical sophont is going to be present to accomplish tasks, then it HAS to be able to do physical things. And if it was purely for software functionality, it would use the Virtual Crew software instead.
The next paragraph:
K’Kree ships cannot use standard virtual crew or
specialist software in combination with an operations
package. If the ability to operate weapons is desired a
military operations package is requires and a specialised
or advanced package must be used to gain additional
DMs. Non-robotic ships can use standard virtual crew
software to replace some of their crew, in the same
manner as vessels produced by any other species.
If they could do what they physically with just the Virtual Crew, they would just the software.
K’kree Virtual Crew packages are not created to replace
single crewmembers but are a complete system allowing
the craft to carry out its intended role without any
personnel aboard. For this reason they take up space
within the hull and are considered a component rather
than being purely a software system. A Virtual Crew
package requires a computer with sufficient Bandwidth
to run successfully.
K’kree Virtual Crew packages allow normal functions
of the crew positions they replace to be carried out
without requiring additional software. A basic operations
package replaces pilots, engineers and astrogators and
thus allows the ship to manoeuvre (a pilot function),
operate its sensors (pilot or astrogator) and control its
power systems (engineer) without requiring additional
software. This vessel could not fire weapons, however as
this is a gunner function and not covered by the basic
operations package.
The crews role includes repair and functions such as that of Steward, which requires a presence to cook, clean and otherwise watch after the passengers. If you're replacing Engineers, Mechanics, Stewards and Medics, with no expectation that a physical sophont is going to be present to accomplish tasks, then it HAS to be able to do physical things. And if it was purely for software functionality, it would use the Virtual Crew software instead.
The next paragraph:
K’Kree ships cannot use standard virtual crew or
specialist software in combination with an operations
package. If the ability to operate weapons is desired a
military operations package is requires and a specialised
or advanced package must be used to gain additional
DMs. Non-robotic ships can use standard virtual crew
software to replace some of their crew, in the same
manner as vessels produced by any other species.
If they could do what they physically with just the Virtual Crew, they would just the software.
It literally does not say this in fact it says the opposite.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
One of the basic jobs of the ship engineer is maintenance and repair. So the engineering sub-system that is part of this -
"K’kree Virtual Crew packages allow normal functions of the crew positions they replace to be carried out without requiring additional software. A basic operations package replaces pilots, engineers" - is capable of normal functions of that position which includes maintenance and repair.
"K’kree Virtual Crew packages allow normal functions of the crew positions they replace to be carried out without requiring additional software. A basic operations package replaces pilots, engineers" - is capable of normal functions of that position which includes maintenance and repair.
mavikfelna
Cosmic Mongoose
Sigtrygg said it already, but here is the descriptions of Engineers from High Guard pg 89
ENGINEER
An engineer’s work is never done. Engineers are
responsible for the maintenance and repair of the
ship’s drives, power and life-support systems. When
all systems are operating at peak performance, the
engineer’s job is simple: Monitor the ship’s functions
and, in the case of starships, engage the jump drive
when called upon to do so. Ships have a complex array
of equipment with hundreds of working components.
Keeping them all operating is difficult and demanding.
Physical work that they are doing, maintaining and repair systems.
The 3rd paragraph in the Maintenance crew description on pg 91 of HG
Ship maintenance staff must be creative and know
how to use their skills to ‘jury rig’ a faulty system.
While engineers are busy with the complicated
tasks of keeping the ship’s high-tech drives running,
maintenance workers must replace lighting systems,
clean air ventilation shafts, get sticky iris valves to
open and close properly, and keep the cargo crane
rolling smoothly between the gantries in the hold.
Maintenance is a blue-collar job that pays less, often
calls for more overtime and lacks the glamour and
perceived value that engineers have but quality
maintenance staff are worth their weight in gold.
During space combat, maintenance staff must often
put themselves in harm’s way to get a critical system
back online after it sustains battle damage. Hazard duty
requires some level of expertise with vacc suits.
The Maintenance position is part of the Support Positions that are replaced by the Full Operations Package. They are doing the physical work of ship's maintenance.
So no, it doesn't say the opposite of that. It says EXACTLY that. Otherwise, it wouldn't take any hull tonnage and would just require the Virtual Crew software.
ross
Banded Mongoose
Honestly, I think it's because automation is becoming so much more prevalent in daily life here on Earth in 2025. Cars are starting to drive themselves, smart homes or controlling everything from the lights to climate control. There's just an awful lot of automation in human Society today. It also allows a smaller crew to operate a much larger ship.
The reality is that ships have to be pretty automated already with the very lean crewing that the game allows. A free trader has a pilot, astrogator, and Engineer as crew (+/- whatever needed for passengers, if any). That's the bare minimum to have 1 person on watch at any given moment. That pilot isn't at the controls 24/7, so the ship has to be flying on autopilot 2/3 of the time. Likewise, only the computer is monitoring the engines 2/3 of the time.
The reason why you don't go the next step to robot ships is basically a thematic decision. Traveller has chosen to make the development and/or acceptance of truly autonomous systems more limited, so the focus is on the human characters. Thus, prior to TL15, robot brains are limited (reflected in the max difficulty of skill task they can even attempt, regardless of their bonuses).
However, it is useful from a game play perspective to able to automate some systems, so that you don't have to have a player filling that role if no one wants to do so. So having an autodoc instead of a medic or an astrogation computer instead of an astrogator. A steward bot for your medium and basic passengers. You could do NPCs, but they require significantly more effort on the part of the GM. Which may or may not be desirable for that campaign. Of course, you can go the star wars route and have your slave droids be full NPCs if you want.
The reason why you don't go the next step to robot ships is basically a thematic decision. Traveller has chosen to make the development and/or acceptance of truly autonomous systems more limited, so the focus is on the human characters. Thus, prior to TL15, robot brains are limited (reflected in the max difficulty of skill task they can even attempt, regardless of their bonuses).
However, it is useful from a game play perspective to able to automate some systems, so that you don't have to have a player filling that role if no one wants to do so. So having an autodoc instead of a medic or an astrogation computer instead of an astrogator. A steward bot for your medium and basic passengers. You could do NPCs, but they require significantly more effort on the part of the GM. Which may or may not be desirable for that campaign. Of course, you can go the star wars route and have your slave droids be full NPCs if you want.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
One thing about robot brains and difficulty rating that might or might not be applicable.
EDIT: This is from the Robot Handbook.
"The type of brain constrains a robot Traveller’s ability to use skills in highly complex tasks. An Advanced brain can only attempt Difficult (10+) and simpler tasks, a Very Advanced brain can attempt Very Difficult (12+) and a Self-Aware brain, Formidable (14+). Take note of two things: first, performing a task more slowly can lower difficulty by one level and second, this restriction only applies to INT, EDU or SOC-based checks."
So, even an Advanced Brain can do slower work on Very Difficult tasks. A Very Advanced brain can do slower work on Formidable tasks. That's well within the bounds of acceptable risk, I think.
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Does taking more time lower the difficulty? I was under the impression that it gave a bonus to your skill roll. Those have the same effect mathematically, but aren't actually the same thing.
Regardless, the point is that brains are limited compared to humans as a design feature, because that's part of the rationale for humans being necessary as crew. Not that most humans can actually make very difficult or formidable task checks reliably, either, but they are at least capable of the necessary creativity to attempt them.
Also, that quote's there to ameliorate the downsides for player character robots. I don't see any reason to extend that to the run of the mill non player robots.
Regardless, the point is that brains are limited compared to humans as a design feature, because that's part of the rationale for humans being necessary as crew. Not that most humans can actually make very difficult or formidable task checks reliably, either, but they are at least capable of the necessary creativity to attempt them.
Also, that quote's there to ameliorate the downsides for player character robots. I don't see any reason to extend that to the run of the mill non player robots.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
A robot brain is a robot brain. That is in the PC section, but PC robot brains aren't built differently than NPC robot brains.
As to the difficulty level, I'm just quoting the rule. Maybe robot brains handle difficulty levels differently. Geir is pretty good with the rules.
The Core Rulebook says this in an example (bolding mine):
"The ship jumps successfully but the engine needs more repairs. A week later, when they emerge from hyperspace, Kathya overhauls the engine. This time, there is no time pressure, so she opts to increase the time taken from 1D hours to 1D x 4 hours to make the task easier, giving her DM+2. She rolls a 3 for the timeframe again, so it takes her 12 hours to repair the engines properly."
One could argue that the longer time taken is in fact reducing the difficulty level.
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