(WaW) German Crew Served Gun Errata?

[Wolfhound]

Howdy, has this been addressed in any errata or post someplace I've missed?

Though it's obvious that the commander gets an MP-40 and the soldiers Kar-98K, on my (I guess 1st printing), on page 91 and 92, the "Unit" line of the FlaK 35/36 88 and the Nebelwerfer 41 don't actually list what weapons the crew are armed with or the ranks (unlike everyone else's guns).

I didn't see it in the PDF either, hence the post.

 

[Agis]

Howdy, has this been addressed in any errata or post someplace I've missed?

Though it's obvious that the commander gets an MP-40 and the soldiers Kar-98K, on my (I guess 1st printing), on page 91 and 92, the "Unit" line of the FlaK 35/36 88 and the Nebelwerfer 41 don't actually list what weapons the crew are armed with or the ranks (unlike everyone else's guns).

I didn't see it in the PDF either, hence the post.

No errata here, the Commander and the crew are to busy handling these huge guns, so no weapons are mentioned.
The guns within the army list are mentioned as Platoon / Company support, so more directly linked to the platoon. Hence the weapons.

The 88 and Nebelwerfer are more detached Regimental support choices. And since all German army list in WaW can use them I decided to keep the ranks very "vague" (commander/ solider).

Hope that helps.

 

[Wolfhound]

Maybe I misread the rules then, are they unarmed and so would they be unable to React?

 

[Agis]

Maybe I misread the rules then, are they unarmed and so would they be unable to React?

Why would they be unable to react?
The ability to react has nothing to do with being armed or not.

They are unarmed so they can't shoot back, but they can certainly move as a reaction...

 

[Laffe]

Agis, can you clarify how the crew is meant to work?

I have surmised as follows:

1) One crew has to be in base contact with the gun for it to fire.
2) The rest of the crew can be "hidden" as long as they are within 6" of the unit leader. That way you only expose the gunner, and only he can be killed.
3) Another crew member can take over if the gunner is killed, since the whole crew has to be wiped out to silence the gun.
4) But the gun requires a ready action first to fire (slow trait), and cannot be fired as a reaction.

So, in my example, Sherman fires at a gun, kills the gunner, the crew can react by moving, and recrew the gun? To be able to do a ready action and fire their next turn. Am I understanding this right?

[Edit: damn typoes]

 

[Rabidchild]

Wasn't this already answered in this thread?

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No, since only one model counts as being armed with the AT gun.
4) Yes

So in your example, if the Sherman killed the model that is armed with the AT gun, the rest of the crew is out of luck.

Basically, the idea of hiding the crew so that the gun has to be "killed" a number of times equal to the crew doesn't work because only one member is armed with the AT gun.

 

[Agis]

Agis, can you clarify how the crew is meant to work?

I have surmised as follows:
1) One crew has to be in base contact with the gun for it to fire.
2) The rest of the crew can be "hidden" as long as they are within 6" of the unit leader. That way you only expose the gunner, and only he can be killed.
3) Another crew member can take over if the gunner is killed, since the whole crew has to be wiped out to silence the gun.
4) But the gun requires a ready action first to fire (slow trait), and cannot be fired as a reaction.

So, in my example, Sherman fires at a gun, kills the gunner, the crew can react by moving, and recrew the gun? To be able to do a ready action and fire their next turn. Am I understanding this right?

Yes! All spot on! Exactly the way I play it!
(Edit: See Rabidchilds answer above for the official answer! Sorry for being vague here!)

 

[Alexb83]

The problem as I see it becomes that some guns simply could not be crewed by 3 men, let alone 1, without a drastic reduction in accuracy, rate of fire etc.

Consider that many of the field guns and artillery pieces used multi-part ammunition, and that otherwise single part ammunition is a. large and b. pretty heavy. They weren't particularly easy to move or aim.

One man clearing a breach, scrabbling to and then from an ammo crate lugging a honking great brass shell, loading it. repeating for the charge (if applicable), closing the breach, moving to the gunners seat, making adjustments, firing.

It might be viable for a 47mm or a 2pdr (which were small, very easy to aim and used very small shells) but otherwise, guns have a whole crew for a reason.

 

[Wolfhound]

Re: "Why can't they react"
1) They can't move away, the 88 crew all have "Immovable." (Neb crew can Move away)
2) The gun and Neb are both "Slow" and cannot fire as a Reaction.
3) The gun and Neb crews lack personal weapons and cannot fire as a Reaction.

Re: "Kill the gunner and you're out of luck"
No offense, but being unable to recrew a Crew Served gun is pretty silly as it voids several other specifically listed mechanics.
1) Why even list the Crew stat line at all?
2) Why even have the "Crew Weapon" trait? Only one guy on the gun's own crew knows how to shoot the gun? Absurd.
3) Why even have rules to "abandon the gun" - why abandon the gun if they're unarmed? (obviously this one refers to the Nebelwerfer)

It would have been better to just give it Hits/X and treat it like any other no-facing vehicle, dispensing with the crew line and crew related traits; if that's the actual intent (takes more than 1 guy to shoot, can't move, etc). (Mainly in regards to the 88, on the Neb I think it's just missing the weapon lines like all the other Crew Weapons, editing error.)

Re: Personal Weapon for Defense
EVERY other Crew Weapon in the book, the models have personal weapons. (Brit 6 Pndr, Pak40, Ruskie 76mm, US 57mm)... which allows them to React shoot with their own personal weapons (since the gun itself is Slow). The 88 and Neb can't. If I'm on a forward deployed gun crew less than 500 feet away from the enemy, I should like to think I'm not so wet behind the ears as to leave my weapon in the rear (like I might be more likely to do if I was deployed some number of kilometers away, with the rest of the artillery).

I think you guys need to have a game developer pow-wow and go back to the drawing board on this one. The "silly fiddly rules" factor is pretty high. :roll:

 

[Agis]

Re: "Why can't they react"
1) They can't move away, the 88 crew all have "Immovable."
2) The gun is "Slow" and it cannot fire as a Reaction.
3) The crew lack personal weapons and cannot fire as a Reaction.

:shock: Damn, you are right, the unmovable trait should be at the gun, not the crew! The crew can move, they have a move score for a reason!

Re: "Kill the gunner and you're out of luck"
No offense, but being unable to recrew a Crew Served gun is pretty silly as it voids several other specifically listed mechanics.
1) Why even list the Crew stat line at all?
2) Why even have the "Crew Weapon" trait?
3) Why even have rules to "abandon the gun" - why abandon the gun if they're unarmed? (obviously this one refers to the Nebelwerfer)

See above and:
Abandon the gun can make sense: Tactical withdrawal and Victory points!

Re: Personal Weapon for Defense
EVERY other Crew Weapon in the book, the models have personal weapons. (Brit 6 Pndr, Pak40, Ruskie 76mm, US 57mm)... which allows them to React shoot with their own personal weapons. The 88 and Neb can't. If I'm on a forward deployed gun crew less than 500 feet away from the enemy, I should like to think I'm not so wet behind the ears as to leave my weapon in the rear (like I would if I was deployed some number of kilometers away, with the rest of the artillery).

Please see my 1st reply. IMO both the 88 and the Nebelwerfer are good enough as they are... :wink:

 

[Wolfhound]

Please see my 1st reply. IMO both the 88 and the Nebelwerfer are good enough as they are... :wink:

For offense and primary purpose, I agree. For defense, I respectfully and completely, disagree.

 

[Agis]

The problem as I see it becomes that some guns simply could not be crewed by 3 men, let alone 1, without a drastic reduction in accuracy, rate of fire etc.
Consider that many of the field guns and artillery pieces used multi-part ammunition, and that otherwise single part ammunition is a. large and b. pretty heavy. They weren't particularly easy to move or aim.
One man clearing a breach, scrabbling to and then from an ammo crate lugging a honking great brass shell, loading it. repeating for the charge (if applicable), closing the breach, moving to the gunners seat, making adjustments, firing.
It might be viable for a 47mm or a 2pdr (which were small, very easy to aim and used very small shells) but otherwise, guns have a whole crew for a reason.

This is exactly the reasoning behind the official ruling. (No take over if the gunner is killed)
My reply to Laffes post was purposly declared "Exactly the way I play it! "...

 

[Wolfhound]

For fear of turning this into a "beating a dead horse" issue - the only reason I keep bringing it up is because it's an area where I consider it an "acceptible" rule, and I want the game to be better than just "acceptible."

That said.

I think it's safe to say the topic has shifted focus to the Crew Weapon mechanic itself (as it affects all armies) regardless of the situation with the krauts.

With that as the new focus for this thread.

1) In this game (and it's a great mechanic) - the shooter determines where the damage dice are allocated, therefore it is simplicity itself to kill the gun operator (gun shield or not).
See review here: http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=139496

relevant text quote here:

If anything, my one criticism would be that anti-tank guns are far too vulnerable. I'm almost thinking the GM didn't have these rules quite right, because field guns were just as vulnerable as infantry (the gun itself was so easily destroyed). We pretty much lost every field gun that was shot at. One cool point, however, was that unmanned field guns could be re-crewed by any nearby infantry.

2) Not everyone true, but in fact I would dare say a significant number of gamers, will Model "big guns" on single bases with diorama gun crews. It's how most of those models are sold, built, and painted. Having a mechanic that when the gunner is killed, the entire gun is out of commission, with no way to simply mark kills, decay the effects of the gun, or to re-crew the weapon with additional men is a disservice to the overall look, flow, and feel of the game.

3) While having a mechanic where "just anyone" can start shooting a gun would be a bit silly (and is not what I would advocate) - trying to say that nobody else on the gun crew itself (not the least of which the commander) cannot man the gun when the primary gunner buys the farm makes logic stare. They just stand there with their thumbs up their butts and decry the cruelty of the mistress of Fate? :?

It's clear that an errata would be needed to fix the "Immovable" bit. I would strongly suggest, using the opportunity to

1) Make the 88 a "Hits/X" no facing immovable vehicle, like a tank or any other vehicle like it. Eliminate all of the "crew" text. I would suggest this for any other "artillery" where the crew is unarmed (like if 105mm guns are introduced down the road). That way, how the customer models the fig makes no difference, and models that have no effect on the game other than "victory points" (weak justification at best) are left to the mood/whim of the modeller to make a cool diorama.

If the Nebelwerfer is intended to have unarmed crew, see #1. Else, Errata it to give the crew back MP-40 for the commander and Kar-98ks for the other.

2) Clarify "Crew Weapon" so that when the gunner dies, another Model may "take over" the weapon. Suggest marking dead crewmen with a bead, token, etc. - specifically state that only the gun's own crew may "take over" - and not just "any" Model. This makes the field guns a bit more durable but not excessively so. They'll still be gone in a round or two, but not with a single round of shooting as soon as an enemy MG gets within about 3 feet of it.

 

[Wolfhound]

From the above linked post

Yes, think of the Gun and the crew as 1 model with 3 hits! No one would ask, why can the tank still shoot, it has only 1 hit left... :wink:

This is not possible if the other crew cannot "take over" the gun because the shooter allocates the hits. What shooter won't allocate the gunner first? So clearly, it's an area that needs some clarification from Mongoose as we've had two sides of the position posted on this thread alone.

 

[hithero]

The rules actually say, for all guns:
"...can only shoot if at least one crew member is in base contact with it"

Surely this means that any of the crew an fire the gun and not just the one guy who carry's it around as a personal weapon?

And having just 1 crew firing the gun while the rest of the crew blast away with rifles is just plane daft. A gun has a number of crew for a certain reason - for maximum efficiency, if the rest of the crew shooting rifles or dead, then the gun must have a dissadvantage somewhere.

 

[Agis]

In this game (and it's a great mechanic) - the shooter determines where the damage dice are allocated, therefore it is simplicity itself to kill the gun operator (gun shield or not).

Hmm, maybe a part of the problem lies here. Allocating dice works actually slightly different.
Quote from Page 18 of the WaW rulebook.
"The highest scoring Damage Dice (including any bonuses)
must be allocated to the model closest to the shooting unit
within the Fire Zone, the next highest scoring Damage Dice
to the next nearest model, and so on."

The attacker has some control since he establishes the centre of the fire zone, but it is not as simple as you say.

So if the defending player is positioning his models careful he can minimize risk of killing the gunner first.

 

[Wolfhound]

And having just 1 crew firing the gun while the rest of the crew blast away with rifles is just plane daft. A gun has a number of crew for a certain reason - for maximum efficiency, if the rest of the crew shooting rifles or dead, then the gun must have a dissadvantage somewhere.

I am not talking about offensively, but defensively. When the enemy is within 10 inches and Reactions are provoked by something THEY do, the gun is not blasting away. It's sitting there (Slow trait). And right now, as written, so is the crew (no personal weapons, Immovable in the case of the 88 ). Weapons OTHER than the Neb and the 88 are able to at least react with personal weapon fire of their own as a Reaction.

must be allocated to the model closest to the shooting unit

Yes you are correct, but generally I don't see how this changes anything.
... rather than support an errata or clarification to the rules, you're saying I should Model my figures differently or deploy them with an idiot standing out in front of or right up against the gun shield so he can die first and "protect" my gunner? Obviously with an 88 with several crew, this is easier than, say, a 3 crew gun. So, rather than the rules taking care of it, by simply allowing another crewman to take over the gun, you're saying how my diorama is arranged or figures are deployed around the gun is the "official" solution? :shock:

(Please understand, I'm not trying to deliberately be argumentative. I'm just trying to clearly delineate my arguments. I realize that in your own games you already do exactly this - as of now this is a house rule for us as well - I mean in "official" rules which are usually the only way for a game to have any reasonable modicum of success on my side of the pond.)

 

[Agis]

Please cool down a bit! :wink:

From my side all is said!

I have to clarify that I can talk about the reasoning behind the army lists, since I wrote them,
the decision to judge any "issue" important enough for an errata
or update of the Players guide is completely at Mongoose side.

'Nuff said and have fun at your games!

 

[Wolfhound]

Please cool down a bit! :wink:

From my side all is said!

I have to clarify that I can talk about the reasoning behind the army lists, since I wrote them,
the decision to judge any "issue" important enough for an errata
or update of the Players guide is completely at Mongoose side.

'Nuff said and have fun at your games!

No worries. Surprised and a bit disappointed, but definately not irritated.

I understand about the "It's up to the company" part. :lol: When I left Reaper, they did things to CAV and Warlord I would never have imagined.

Cheers!

 

[Laffe]

I do remember the old thread, but that concerned targeting and now we are discussing reactions.

IF (and I say IF) only one guy can fire the gun, the rule about needing to kill all crew to knock out the gun is in essence void and useless, except when calculating victory points. (It can't fire but it's not knocked out...)

IF (and again I say IF) you can spread out or hide parts of the crew and then recrew the gun as a reaction, then AT guns will be a little bit less vulnerable than before. (Just hope you don't face off two tanks at once...)

Damn it, can we get a ruling on this?