Warmek weapon feats

[wpngjstr]

Am I the only one that thinks that all the warmek weapon feats that are limited to 20m seem a little pointless; unless you're fighting in a city (with BIG buildings) most engagements are likely to be over before you get close enough to use them*, and if you're using a 400mm Railgun, with an increment of 800m... ("Well, I could nail him at a klick, but I think I'll get close enough to spit and shoot him with my Weapon Devastation feat for +1 damage..." :wink:
I feel that the weapons range increment would work much better than 20m
Opinions? (preferably with reasoning)
* Infantry generally engage each other at around 200-300m with normal weapons, tanks at 1-4km

 

[Lane Shutt]

Am I the only one that thinks that all the warmek weapon feats that are limited to 20m seem a little pointless; unless you're fighting in a city (with BIG buildings) most engagements are likely to be over before you get close enough to use them

It's like melee feats, point blank shot, ranged sneak attack in DnD.

At 20m a warmek is effectively in melee combat and weapons with long ranges can now hit the most vulnerable parts of a target..

There are a lot of ways a mech can get close enough to use the feats. Cover, concealment, smoke, weather, charging once these methods become ineffective.

* Infantry generally engage each other at around 200-300m with normal weapons, tanks at 1-4km

With an M-16 at 200m I can hit a stationary (man sized) target about 85% of the time, at 25m I can hit a 15 cm target 98% and 4 cm 50% of the time.

Translate that into mech sized targets and account for combat conditions. Instead of hitting somewhere on the mech your shot enters the gap between armor plates at the shoulder joint and blows the arm off.

 

[wpngjstr]

(Sorry, I got a little carried away -the main suggestion is at the end)

With an M-16 at 200m I can hit a stationary (man sized) target about 85% of the time, at 25m I can hit a 15 cm target 98% and 4 cm 50% of the time.

Really? At 36m I can put 4 shots into a dime, and at 200 I can hit a 6" target abut 80-90%, and a head/shoulders size one 100% At 20m I can ask "which eye?"(of course, with a M-9 pistol I can't hit a barn from the inside...but one of my Sergeants can empty the magazine into a 6" target at 25m as fast as he can squeeze the trigger) With asniper rifle I can hit a mansized target at 1km (so far) at 100%
In actual combat I am a little sloppier, I'll grant, but not too much.

Mek weapons don't suffer from many of the limitations of infantry weapons- they have a much more stable firing platform (no breathing, heartbeat, muscle strain/exertation etc), better sighting equipment, and reduced weather effects. Similarly the target is of the order of 5-10 times bigger, so doubling the effective range rather than at least multiplying by 5 seems rather miserly. Multiplying by at leat 5 would be more reasonable. Also the accuracy of each weapon is different (for example my pistol shooting rather than my M16A2) as reflected in the range increments- some weapons are inherantly more accurate at longer ranges, but the feats penalise them over, say a PA cannon, especially given the high BAB requirements for many of the feats

While you can get close enough to engage at 20m (though finding cover and concealment for a vertical tank is not going to be as easy as you suggest in normal terrain- a decent sensor suite will handle most concealment) that really reduces the point of having long range weapons- why mount a railgun when I'm trying to get close enough to hit him with a PA cannon? You are forced to either ignore the feats or fight in one "up close" style, so a "Mek sniper" is just SOL.

Perhaps an alternative might be to limit the range to 20m, unless the character is stationary and/or takes an aim action, which allows him to use it out to one range increment of the weapon?

 

[Lane Shutt]

Really? At 36m I can put 4 shots into a dime, and at 200 I can hit a 6" target abut 80-90%, and a head/shoulders size one 100% At 20m I can ask "which eye?

That is what I expect from a Jar Head, I OTOH only get to shoot once or twice a year for qualification.

Mek weapons don't suffer from many of the limitations of infantry weapons- they have a much more stable firing platform (no breathing, heartbeat, muscle strain/exertation etc), better sighting equipment, and reduced weather effects. Similarly the target is of the order of 5-10 times bigger, so doubling the effective range rather than at least multiplying by 5 seems rather miserly.

Think shooting on the move, which has penalties to hit, rather than stationary with it's -4 to DV.

While you can get close enough to engage at 20m (though finding cover and concealment for a vertical tank is not going to be as easy as you suggest in normal terrain- a decent sensor suite will handle most concealment)

Smoke and an autonomous jammer can go a long way. Sure a large mech will have problems but medium or less should have plenty options for cover. Then again a large mech probably has the armor to survive charging for several rounds. Given that many assault mechs can charge at 120-140m, with a +8 or +9 bonus to DV, they can close quite quickly and hard to hit while doing so.

that really reduces the point of having long range weapons- why mount a railgun when I'm trying to get close enough to hit him with a PA cannon? You are forced to either ignore the feats or fight in one "up close" style, so a "Mek sniper" is just SOL.

There are still a few feats for the Sniper

 

[wpngjstr]

That is what I expect from a Jar Head, I OTOH only get to shoot once or twice a year for qualification.

Thank you (I think), but I only shoot once a year, for qual (except when we go to war) I assume you're a Doggie, or maybe a Zoomie?

Smoke and an autonomous jammer can go a long way. Sure a large mech will have problems but medium or less should have plenty options for cover. Then again a large mech probably has the armor to survive charging for several rounds.

They can help, but with the right sensor package their effectiveness can be reduced, neither provides cover, if you're charging you're going to keep leaving them behind, and wind plays merry hell with smoke

Think shooting on the move, which has penalties to hit, rather than stationary with it's -4 to DV.

Indeed, but those penalties apply just as much up close (actually, in real terms their worse, since the relative motion is magnified), so should not affect the useful range of the feat (circumstance versus inherant accuracy). (BTW where is that table?- I found it before, but I can't anymore)
I understand your (well made) arguements, even if I don't view the situation quite the same way, but my main point still remains- most of the warmek gunnery feats are only useful if you want to get up close; while you CAN close quite quickly, if you have stand off range, why would you want to?I still feel my suggestion to be valid (20m while moving, 1 range inc if stationary,after an aim action) but that ,I suppose, is the joy of house rules :|

 

[Lane Shutt]

Thank you (I think), but I only shoot once a year, for qual (except when we go to war) I assume you're a Doggie, or maybe a Zoomie?

SeaBee, reservist. Our range time is so limited that if you qualify first time you do not shoot again till next year. I've still managed to shoot expert a couple times. The Standing Unsupported screws my score, I hear some army units never shoot unsupported for qualification.

My intention was to point out how much better a close range shot can be.

They can help, but with the right sensor package their effectiveness can be reduced, neither provides cover, if you're charging you're going to keep leaving them behind, and wind plays merry hell with smoke

At present there are no rules for laying smoke, other than defensive, but I'm working on it. Hot Smoke and jamming would in effect provide cover.

Indeed, but those penalties apply just as much up close, so should not affect the useful range of the feat . (BTW where is that table?- I found it before, but I can't anymore)

The target speed penalties do not affect the Feats, they are a mechanism which can be exploited to make the feats usable.

p96 Defense Value, text only

I understand your (well made) arguements, even if I don't view the situation quite the same way, but my main point still remains- most of the warmek gunnery feats are only useful if you want to get up close; while you CAN close quite quickly, if you have stand off range, why would you want to?I still feel my suggestion to be valid (20m while moving, 1 range inc if stationary,after an aim action) but that ,I suppose, is the joy of house rules :|

IMHO any change should be a fixed range not based on the weapon. The pinpoint accuracy they represent is negated before ballistics have much effect.

 

[wpngjstr]

SeaBee, reservist.

Ah, My apologies. Please accept my respect- SeaBees are a truly awsome bunch to have around. ( I got my first shower in 3 months in Iraq thanks to you guys) I should have considered the army don't bother aiming anyway( Spray & pray- personally I favor "slay em, don't spray em" -if I'm going to carry all that @#$% ammo I want it to be useful)
Incidentally, isn't Reservist kind of a moot distinction nowadays?
(For anyone not familiar with the SeaBees, they are US Navy Construction Battalions - a cross between civil and combat engineers; they work miracles in the worst conditions; during WW2 they built airstrips on the pacific islands while the fighting was still going on around them (ie they were not in a position to defend themselves)
also: Jarhead=Marine, Doggie=army, zoomie=air force)

 

[Lane Shutt]

Ah, My apologies. Please accept my respect- SeaBees are a truly awsome bunch to have around.

Thank you. It's funny how the name SeaBee has two responses, either "Who" or high praise.

I should have considered the army don't bother aiming anyway

Most people do not associate rifle qualification with the Navy, in fact most sailors with a rifle are more dangerous to their own side.

Incidentally, isn't Reservist kind of a moot distinction nowadays?

True
Were starting to see better training opportunities but also more likely to get deployed.

(For anyone not familiar with the SeaBees, they are US Navy Construction Battalions - a cross between civil and combat engineers; they work miracles in the worst conditions; during WW2 they built airstrips on the pacific islands while the fighting was still going on around them

Construction workers with guns and too stubborn to quit.
"The difficult we do immediately, the impossible takes a little longer"

Our main focus is providing construction support for combat units but we are trained, by Marines, to defend ourselves. In the last decade our job has expanded to supporting army and air force units in addition to Marines. We also have a long history of humanitarian aid.