Vree & Supermaneuverability...

[Jhary]

Sorry but the SM ist a built in Special so you can´t loose it.
There stand nothing in the rule that a crippled ship looses the race abilitys.

 

[Spideredd]

Yes, I too am getting really confused by this. Why are we going down to 1.5" or 3" for an originally 12" speed? Is that because you're overlaying both effects of Crippled?

Once the ship is crippled and moving at 1/2 spd, 1/45; are you dropping that in half to apply SM and then applying the SM-Crippled effects to further drop the speed?

That is indeed correect

Technically if you removed the SM you can't go under half speed without a S/A, right? So either it would be that the crippled 12" would be SM at 3" or it simply can't operate as SM while crippled since if it tries it loses the quality and then must be under All Stop to not have to move 1/2 - 1 speed.

Once a ship with the SM ability is crippled, it is no longer SM, but instead of going down to a single turn of 45, a SM ship drops to 2 turns of 45, but it still has to move 1/2 speed before the first and 2" between each them, making the 2/45 turns almost meaningless.

But they still have the ability to move less than 1/2 speed.

I Suppose the question is now: Do Vree ships suffer the full efects of being crippled, even when they move at below half speed?

If the answer is yes, then the above scenario applies. (2/45 turns, 1/2 speed before first, 2" before second)
If the answer is no, then the Vree are still SM when they drop below 1/2 speed

I say yes. When a Vree ship is crippled, it should suffer the full effects of that, the same as everybody else.

 

[Burger]

There is nothing in the rules to say that Vree are immune to any of the effects of being crippled.

 

[High Sierra]

tbh i think its a bit of a silly debate cos the Vree hulls are so fragile theres about 13 nanoseconds between them bein crippled and going pop.

 

[Sulfurdown]

tbh i think its a bit of a silly debate cos the Vree hulls are so fragile theres about 13 nanoseconds between them bein crippled and going pop.

It can make a huge difference in a game, though, if the Vree maintain SM at 1/2 Speed. Consider a ship pointing in toward the enemy fleet right next to an asteroid field, if it keeps it's SM while crippled it can swing sideways behind cover and either be kept as an iSink or if it can be maneuvered to make a final few shots it otherwise wouldn't get from outside a side arc range, both potentially turning a battle. If it can't operate as SM then it pretty much has to barrel into the enemy or All Stop, either probably ending up just as you described (POP!).

 

[Voronesh]

Now wouldnt be this something for rulesmasters forum?

Anyway my idea is that the Vree supermaneuverabiltiy is was (at least under 1e) phrased as a racial ability. And as it is not a ship trait, you cant lose it. But now that is me.

 

[Jhary]

There is nothing in the rules to say that Vree are immune to any of the effects of being crippled.

So the Psicorp looses also theire Telephaty when there ship is crippled? Or the Vorlone an Shadows the selfrepair or the hyperspace mastery or the dilgar theire pentacon master of destruction?

If the Vree loose by crippled then all looses theire Abilitys ups you didn´t thoutgh from this side

 

[Spideredd]

There is nothing in the rules to say that Vree are immune to any of the effects of being crippled.

So the Psicorp looses also theire Telephaty when there ship is crippled? Or the Vorlone an Shadows the selfrepair or the hyperspace mastery or the dilgar theire pentacon master of destruction?

If the Vree loose by crippled then all looses theire Abilitys ups you didn´t thoutgh from this side

No one has said that the Vree loose their racial abilities when they are crippled, just that it is poitnless to pursue them, besides, the Vorlons and shadows never become Crippled. The Psi corps could lose their psychic abilities, as they are listed as traits. And a ship is still part a squadren, even when it is crippled in the case of the dilgar, so would benefit from the pentacon rules.

the dispute is simply how being crippled affects the movement of the Vree when they move at under 1/2 speed.

 

[Burger]

There is nothing in the rules to say that Vree are immune to any of the effects of being crippled.

So the Psicorp looses also theire Telephaty when there ship is crippled? Or the Vorlone an Shadows the selfrepair or the hyperspace mastery or the dilgar theire pentacon master of destruction?

If the Vree loose by crippled then all looses theire Abilitys ups you didn´t thoutgh from this side

No, the Psicorp doesn't lose their telepathy because there is no rule to say they do (unless they lose the Psychic Crew trait of course)
The Vorlons and Shadows can't lose their self-repair traits because the rules don't say they do.
Dilgar don't lose MoD because nowhere in the rules does it say they lose it.

The rules say that SM ships go down to 2/45 turns when crippled.
Therefore Vree go down to 2/45 when crippled.
Can we stop flying in the face of logic now please?

 

[Voronesh]

Ahh its in the 2e rulebook.

(thats what i get for opening my mouth when MGP hasnt supplied my area of Germany with the books )

 

[Sulfurdown]

There is nothing in the rules to say that Vree are immune to any of the effects of being crippled.

So the Psicorp looses also theire Telephaty when there ship is crippled? Or the Vorlone an Shadows the selfrepair or the hyperspace mastery or the dilgar theire pentacon master of destruction?

If the Vree loose by crippled then all looses theire Abilitys ups you didn´t thoutgh from this side

No, the Psicorp doesn't lose their telepathy because there is no rule to say they do (unless they lose the Psychic Crew trait of course)
The Vorlons and Shadows can't lose their self-repair traits because the rules don't say they do.
Dilgar don't lose MoD because nowhere in the rules does it say they lose it.

The rules say that SM ships go down to 2/45 turns when crippled.
Therefore Vree go down to 2/45 when crippled.
Can we stop flying in the face of logic now please?

Technically the Vree don't have SM, they have 1/90 or 2/90. So when they are Crippled they are reduced to 1/45. The question is, do they then retain their Racial Trait or not. If they can't act as SM for whatever reason then it doesn't matter if they've got 1/45, 2/45 or 7/45 because, as Burger pointed out, there isn't enough room. However, are they prevented from operating as SM?



And a 3-3, 3-4, 3-6, 6-5 & 6-6 critical could result in the temporary loss of the Self-Repairing special trait (It will just come back online the next EoT phase).

 

[Burger]

The question is, do they then retain their Racial Trait or not.

Yes they retain their racial trait. They can move as though they had SM. Since they are crippled, "SM" is then reduced to "2/45".

Don't know how many more times I can rephrase the same thing

 

[Voronesh]

Until everyone of us is supplied with a Rulebook.

(My little B5heart is crying..... )

 

[Methos5000]

The SM become 2/45 must have been specifically written for the Vree im guessing correct? The only other SM units are Shadows (who dont get crippled) and fighters (again not crippled just destroyed).

Though I suppose its there for potential future use as well.

Anyway, I would tend to agree, while the Vree dont truely lose SM they effectively lose it since it makes it impossible for the ship to make the require moves. for 2/45s.

I find it funny though that their racial ability SM states all their ships are extremely agile and gain SM when moving at half speed but apparently above half speed their lateral thrusters just dont work (none of their ships have the agile trait). Not saying they should have it though that would solve the crippled SM issue. I just think it funny that their ships are agile...but not really...

 

[Greg Smith]

The SM become 2/45 must have been specifically written for the Vree im guessing correct?

There is the Dark Knife and Ipsha War Globe.

 

[David Anla Shok']

Essentially, Vree become 1/45 when crippled, just like everyone else. Their SM special rule doesn't help them any because they can't use it.

Interesting idea. By what path of logic did we arrive at it? As far as I can determine, being crippled does indeed reduce the ships turn radius but I don't see a reason for Vree to lose being SM at half speed or less. It is not a special trait that can be lost, but an inherant trait.
Regards,

 

[Jhary]

The question is, do they then retain their Racial Trait or not.

Yes they retain their racial trait. They can move as though they had SM. Since they are crippled, "SM" is then reduced to "2/45".

Don't know how many more times I can rephrase the same thing

Sorry but that stand not in the rules. as you mention before what is not in the rule is not happen.

 

[Burger]

I give up! Read the previous posts for my many explainations of how it works.

Clue: Locutus's first post on the first page.

 

[Jhary]

I give up! Read the previous posts for my many explainations of how it works.

Clue: Locutus's first post on the first page.

Sory but fist post first page decide between lose trait or loose trait or loose trait.

there was no option by locutus post coud it be an other way.
Sutch a thing is called programm question because you get the answer what you want.

O and by the way there is one way a shadow ship is becoming crippled if it comes under the 10 inches to an Traveller.

 

[Burger]

Actually it specifically states in 2nd Ed that super maneuverable ships turn characteristics become 2/45 when crippled so Id say that a Vree ship moving half speed when crippled loses the SM and can only do 2/45. Seems pretty clearcut. for SM, read 2/45 when crippled.

There you go. Read.

Good catch about the Traveller making Shadow ships crippled