VHB 2e ammunition question

[snrdg121408]

Morning PDT,

I created a spreadsheet for the VHB 2e design example and actually came up with the same numbers as shown on the vehicle record sheet p. 12.

Unfortunately, when I began looking at the designs in the Vehicles of Charted Space I began to wonder if the Honey Badger's light autocannon ammunition cost is accounted for in the calculations.

Is the cost of the ammunition that is in a weapon's magazine counted in the vehicle's final cost?

 

[DickTurpin]

In 1st edition it stated that ammunition costs were not included in the ships' price. I have not found that statement in the new rules but it would make sense. You would not expect to roll missile or sand costs into the mortgage; those would be cash purchases after financing the ship.

 

[h1ro]

Just like the fuel tanks are empty and you need to buy life support too

Now, the factory that built the vehicle might be able to hook you up with a deal on your first magazine full of ammo...

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello Dick Turpin and h1ro,

Thank you both for answering my unintended question for VHB 2e's Design Example vehicle the Honey Badger's Light Autocannon's ammunition cost.

What I met to ask, which would have be in error too, was for the listed magazine and magazine cost in the table at the bottom of p. 12. I'm currently breaking down the Jayne's Vehicles of Charted Space into the bits and pieces shown on the record sheets. When I check the Honey Badger's light autocannon characteristics in the Central Supply Catalog (CSC) p. 131 I listed the light autocannon as Magazine 100 at a cost of Cr1,000. On page 70 the galleon's weapon table has one black powder cannon having a magazine of 10 rounds at a cost of Cr500 looking on CSC p. 128 a magazine listed as 1 cannon ball at a cost of Cr50.

If the light autocannon's magazine held 100 rounds, versus the correct number of 500, 500 rounds, based on VHB p. 70 should be Cr5,000.

The intended question concerned the cost of the magazine which at least for the Honey Badger no longer exists should have been:

Shouldn't the number of rounds over the base criteria be multiplied by the base cost?

Looking through 52 of the vehicle's in VHB I believe the answer is that the cost listed for the vehicle's magazine is = (Number of Rounds Carried/Base Rounds in Magazine) x base Cr.

Again thank you for the help.

 

[h1ro]

Are you trying to compile an errata?

Mongoose has long said that they leave things open for gamers to decide. Whether you see that as a cop out to cover for a lack of QC or a fair interpretation is up to you! It's best to not get bogged down in too much detail as you will lose the will to live...

What I'd suggest is make a decision based on common sense.

The good news is there's many an unscrupulous dealer out there wanting to charge your players way over the odds for their basic paramilitary wares and almost as many Feds waiting to arrest them!

 

[h1ro]

To answer more specifically, why do the magazine sizes have to be the same? When the book specifies a light auto cannon it could be one of many different models that will have specs so similar as to be considered the same weapon. Small changes like magazine size to work with different vehicles or applications seems pretty reasonable to me.

Maybe there just wasn't space in the vehicle to hold that many rounds so the mag was changed? It's quite feasible that the magazine was custom made for the application.

The cost of ammo for any weapon or vehicle will vary with the type and number. The magazine is just an empty box.

I don't really get your question...

:?:

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello h1ro,

Are you trying to compile an errata?

Mongoose has long said that they leave things open for gamers to decide. Whether you see that as a cop out to cover for a lack of QC or a fair interpretation is up to you! It's best to not get bogged down in too much detail as you will lose the will to live...

What I'd suggest is make a decision based on common sense.

The good news is there's many an unscrupulous dealer out there wanting to charge your players way over the odds for their basic paramilitary wares and almost as many Feds waiting to arrest them!

The answer is I am trying to figure out the basic rule set as written and to determine a standard method for displaying a record sheet. So far the standard weapon table on a record appears to show magazine cost based on the number of rounds in the magazine per CSC or VHB weapons listings.

The issue is that like many thing "common sense" is defined by each individual's view point

Thank you again for the reply.

 

[h1ro]

The issue is that like many thing "common sense" is defined by each individual's view point

Very true but the only one that matters is for you and your group of players, it's contextual baby!

For a long long time I bashed my head against the brick wall that is Mongoose, there are so many vaguely written rules or entries it wore me out. I find it best not to spend too much time looking at them, the time is better spent drinking a beer or working on my own rules/setting where I am the one who can definitively answer the question on how many X there are in Y!

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again h1ro,

To answer more specifically, why do the magazine sizes have to be the same? When the book specifies a light auto cannon it could be one of many different models that will have specs so similar as to be considered the same weapon. Small changes like magazine size to work with different vehicles or applications seems pretty reasonable to me.

Maybe there just wasn't space in the vehicle to hold that many rounds so the mag was changed? It's quite feasible that the magazine was custom made for the application.

The cost of ammo for any weapon or vehicle will vary with the type and number. The magazine is just an empty box.

I don't really get your question...

:?:

The listed Magazine per the rules as written and so far suggests that this is the number of the round carried in a full magazine. In the case of a standard TL6 light autocannon the internal magazine holds 500 light autocannon rounds of ammunition. Increasing the internal magazine from 500 rounds to 1,000 rounds double the cost.

The number of cannon balls carried in the "Magazine" of a black powder cannon, CSC p. 128, is 1 that has a purchase price Cr50. According to the Galleon vehicle record sheet 1 black powder cannon has a ready magazine of 10 cannon balls at a cost of Cr500. Sixty black powder cannons increases the galleon's unloaded cost while the six hundred cannon balls increase the fully loaded cost. I have not gotten around to how the additional rounds alter the space requirements.

My apologies for not being clear, I've not had enough coffee this morning.

 

[h1ro]

OK, I don't see a question there so I'm assuming you're just writing for your eyes...

:shock:

 

[snrdg121408]

Hello again h1ro,

The issue is that like many thing "common sense" is defined by each individual's view point

Very true but the only one that matters is for you and your group of players, it's contextual baby!

For a long long time I bashed my head against the brick wall that is Mongoose, there are so many vaguely written rules or entries it wore me out. I find it best not to spend too much time looking at them, the time is better spent drinking a beer or working on my own rules/setting where I am the one who can definitively answer the question on how many X there are in Y!

I agree that when one is designing for themselves or their group of players the rules can be are are frequently altered to their game.

However, I am also of the opinion that when submitting something to either, in this case, Mongoose Publishing or adding to the files section the material should be done so that anyone following the process as written can replicate the design. I further feel that any of the alternate rules used should be documented so that anyone can add them.

Many of the broken designs in other Traveller rule sets are in my opinion due to either using different draft rule sets during testing or altering the rules to make the design work in the individual's Traveller universe.

OK, I don't see a question there so I'm assuming you're just writing for your eyes...

:shock:

No, I am trying and failing to respond to the replies posted and having to re-type answers because notifications to new posts between responses get sent to a bit bucket somewhere. This time I did not submit another post but checked in another and I have hopefully caught up and been clear.

In short the original bloody question should have been:

How does one "officially" annotate the number of rounds in a Magazine and the Magazine Cost beyond the specifications listed in the record sheet's Weapon Tables?

 

[h1ro]

Nothing I can say is official. The official answer is already presented to you in the books. (Yeah, I know, that doesn't help cos Mongoose's books have way too much room for interpretation which are easily seen as errors).

Let's look at the real world. The Bradley IFV is equipped with a 25mm Bushmaster M242 auto cannon. Wiki says that:

"The M242 has a single barrel with an integrated dual-feed mechanism and remote feed selection.[1] The gun has 300 rounds of ammunition in two ready boxes (one of 70 rounds, the other of 230 rounds), with an extra 600 rounds in storage (in the M2 Infantry Fighting Vehicle variant) or 1200 stowed rounds (in the M3 Cavalry Fighting Vehicle variant)."

OK, same cannon mounted in a different US vehicle, the LAV-25. Again according to Wiki:

"armed with an M242 25 mm chain gun with 420 rounds of 25 mm ammunition, both M791 APDS-T (Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot-Tracer) and M792 HEI-T (High Explosive Incendiary-Tracer), of which half is ready for use. One hundred fifty rounds are ready for use from one stowage bin, 60 from another stowage bin, the other 210 rounds are stowed elsewhere in the vehicle."

The same cannon (or at least a version of it) is carried by the Ticonderoga class cruiser, Wiki doesn't list the amount but somehow I think it will be more than the Bradley!

Coming back to the game, as you can see in Real Life, there is no set size for a magazine for this weapon. It can be whatever suits the vehicle it's mounted to. The cost of the metal can that the ammo is in is small and can easily be included as part of the weapon price.

Q. How much does the magazine cost?
A. It's included in the cost of the weapon.

Q. How much does the ammo cost?
A. Depends on the type and quantity. The weapon (in it's vehicle) is shipped without ammo.

Q. How much ammo is included with vehicle X?
A. As much as will fit in the vehicle. I am not yet familiar enough with the new VHB to answer this. If as I suspect the rules are vague I would pick a number and call it official. For vehicles the size of the LAV or Bradley lets say 500 rounds. If the vehicle has cargo you can carry more ammo.

Lastly, I draw your attention to the following on page 6 of the VHB:

"Referee Fiat
While you can go a long, long way designing vehicles with the rules presented in this book, creating everything from unicycles to advanced hypersonic airliners capable of traversing alien atmospheres, the Vehicle Handbook is not intended as a hard set of mechanics. Rather, it is a toolkit to provide referees and Travellers with a framework with which to create their designs, rather than limit them.

The referee, therefore, is always free to ‘jiggle’ things and smooth out any rough edges in order to create
the vehicles he wants to see in his setting. We have intentionally put a lot of ‘fuzziness’ into the design system (such as with the space allocated to passengers and the Speed Bands) to make this easier but if the referee wishes to go further... he has our blessing!

If, for example, you want to create a helicopter that has a special fuselage that is shaped to float on water, don’t feel you need to add the Floats option. You are free to say that ability is part of the vehicle’s natural design. If you want to build a large vehicle that can nonetheless fit inside the cargo hold of a Subsidised Merchant, again, simply tweak the Shipping Size of your final design.

The Golden Rule is that the final designs must fit into the universe you have created. It is perfectly acceptable to adjust any characteristics of a vehicle in order to do so."

The official answer is that you get the final say on what makes your vehicle tick. "Pick a number between X and Y"

 

[snrdg121408]

Morning PDT and hello once again h1ro,

Thank you again for the reply and the assistance I agree with much of the material in the post time stamped Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:21 pm.

Q. How much does the ammo cost?
A. Depends on the type and quantity. The weapon (in it's vehicle) is shipped without ammo.

The information provided by the weapon's record sheet/table lists Name, TL, Damage, Tons/kg, Cost, Magazine, Magazine Cost, and Traits.

From what I can determine the light autocannon's standard ammo type is "AP" or armor piercing and the standard magazine has a quantity of 500 rounds that have a supply cost of Cr1,000 when going into combat and is "usually" empty when being shipped. In a number of books in the "Hammer's Slammers" series the combat vehicles have there magazines loaded, but then again they are being shipped to a potentially hostile landing zone.

"Referee Fiat
While you can go a long, long way designing vehicles with the rules presented in this book, creating everything from unicycles to advanced hypersonic airliners capable of traversing alien atmospheres, the Vehicle Handbook is not intended as a hard set of mechanics. Rather, it is a toolkit to provide referees and Travellers with a framework with which to create their designs, rather than limit them.

My real world experience with tool kits is that when issued they all have the same basic items and are, in theory, used following the same process. Yes, individuals do modify the kit and process which has a good probability when someone else follows the altered process causes all sorts of issues.

In CT LBB 2 1e the design tool kit states that a hull with a power plant, maneuver drive, and jump drive defines a starship. The CT X-Boat and CT Annic Nova are examples of using alternate tool kits that do not fit the definition of CT LBB 2 1e. When CT LBB 5 HG 1e design tool kit came out the new process these two designs appear not to have be tested or re-designed to match the new process. CT LBB 5 HG 2e design tool kit appeared on the scene and omitted some of the CT LBB 5 HG 1e rules without again addressing the CT LBB 2 designs.

The item I liked in MgT HG 1e was that there was an official option allowing small craft power plant fuel requirements to be modified for less than 2 tons. In MgT HG 2e a light fighter that has an operational duration of 24 hours requiring 1 ton of fuel that last 4 weeks does not make sense or fit the real world examples.

 

[steve98052]

In most cases, I'd say that magazines are unimportant enough that they're lost in the cost of a weapon system (if they're containers that are routinely refilled) or the ammunition (if it's typically provided in magazines).

There are exceptions: the black powder magazine in a wooden warship is a very specialized part of the ship, designed to minimize the risk of catastrophic fire or blast. But something like a cheap plastic barrel full of VRF Gauss Gun ammunition just isn't worth tracking.

 

[Condottiere]

There are two explosive issues, propellant and high explosive warheads.