Variable Bad Guys

[rgrove0172]

Heres a comment/question on how a typical military faction might evolve, or perhaps shouldnt, as a campaign progresses.

In my first scenario I plan to introduce a particular military patrol. So as not to reveal too much to my players that might be watching, lets just say they are Nemedians. As the players are 1st level the Nemedian force will be comprised of mostly 1st level Soldiers with a few 3rd level NCO types and a 5th level Leader (one they had better not tackle alone by the way)

Now, lets say after a few scenarios my players (hopefully) improve and are now 4th level. Again they travel through Nemedia and encounter a military unit. To use the same group would be hardly sporting, yet if thats what a typical Nemedian patrol is like, then thats what its like - regardless of the level of ability of those encountering them. Now many games later lets say my players are 10th level. The Nemedians have become a nuisance only. Surely there are better troops around they might ask.

So my question is, when presenting NPC for a game and they are part of an established group - how do you work it? Do you simply say they have come across a bunch of new recruits or poorly trained militia or somthing, then later tell them they are running into front line soldiers and still later veterans?

IM asking because typically in past games of D&D a paticular advisary remained the same no matter what level you encountered them at. An orc, was an orc etc. In Conan however, much more realistically, the opponants can be quite varied.

Comments.?

 

[Oly]

If the players start bumping off those patrols with ease then what will happen is that the patrols would be enlarged or made by more experienced troops. Thus for repeat encounters there is good reason why the overall threat of the patrol will increase over time.

Players should also be doing more dangerous things over time as what were once threats become much easier for them. Afterall who wants an easy life when your character is now capable of so much more?

Therefore they will cause the threat of their encounters to rise rather than just keep facing the same level of challenge, you don't have to do anything.

To begin with groups might take on the corrupt and evil leader of a village, that type of enemy will have a certain level of guards that will never change.

Sure enough with time the PCs will be able to walk over a village level opponent and what he can throw at them. At that point why would they keep just tackling village leader bad guys though? They'll step up and challenge a town, a county and finally a country and it's King.

Life for a high level character just taking on small patrols should be as dull as life for a non-adventurer herding sheep. They'll push for something bigger and you'll have cause and logic as to why their opponents are more dangerous.

 

[rgrove0172]

Thanks for the comments! I guess what Im having trouble with is imagining the low-level opponants. Lets take those Nemedians or example. Based on my understanding of character progression, a typical military unit in reality would have only a few new recruits at 1st and 2nd level, a majority would fall into the 3-8 level probably with the veterans hitting 10th or so and the commander even highter. Realistic sure, but you cant pit your new characters against something like that - so you come up with some story about a training patrol or whatever to customize the encounter for them. I guess thats the way you have to work it. Id rather just flesh out my world "AS IS" and let the characters wander through it but it seems you have to consider them as you create.

 

[Oly]

I think of most soldiers being around 3rd level myself. There will be units who are higher but they'd be elite guards or something, certainly not something that would be sent out on a patrol to a quiet and unimportant area or on regular guard duty.

You do have to consider your players to a certain extent when creating the world but not too much.

Certainly my PCs now know that they've got the measure of most run of the mill military units and do plan accordingly. I won't just go making all military units tougher. If the enemy guards are higher than 3rd level then there's a reason for that and it's probably either because the PCs are deliberately going after a big target or they've caused the ramp up in security.

Beginner players certainly shouldn't even be considering taking on a military patrol on even a 1:1 basis yet alone when they're outnumbered as a typical patrol might.

Unlike in D&D where balanced encounters seem important in Conan the players do have to know when it's time to run and time to fight, not everything is balanced.

So to begin a military patrol probably isn't a fair target. Unless they hear rumours about a patrol of new recruits led by an inept captain who just happen to be guarding something important because the more experienced units were called away to something more important.

Then maybe they can become confident enough to deal with a regular patrol. If they become too profficient at it and take on patrols regularly then the "world" steps in and begins to assign tougher units to the trouble spot. It's not the GM twisting things to balance the players but is a world acting logically.

 

[rgrove0172]

On a similar note, do veteran DMs pay strict attention to the "legality" of a given NPC that pops up in a game? What I mean by this is if a spur of the moment NPC or typical bad guy is needed, do the stats have to be according to the rules - or is it common to just give a BAB, Defensive Values, a few random skills and a trait or two and go with it, not spending the time to make sure all the values add up correctly and are perfectly in tune with the rules?

 

[Oly]

On a similar note, do veteran DMs pay strict attention to the "legality" of a given NPC that pops up in a game? What I mean by this is if a spur of the moment NPC or typical bad guy is needed, do the stats have to be according to the rules - or is it common to just give a BAB, Defensive Values, a few random skills and a trait or two and go with it, not spending the time to make sure all the values add up correctly and are perfectly in tune with the rules?

I don't worry too much about staying legal. I'll often take a pre-existing character that's close in concept to what I'm after and just add a few things if I need them.

I think there was some great advice in Ruins of Hyboria which basically was to happily use the stats for a monster and just change it's description. As far as you know it's a Black Fiend that's lost it's vulnerability to fire in exchange for something else. As far as the players know it's a hideous multi tentacled beast from the firey pits of some hell or other.

 

[kintire]

I

guess what Im having trouble with is imagining the low-level opponants. Lets take those Nemedians or example. Based on my understanding of character progression, a typical military unit in reality would have only a few new recruits at 1st and 2nd level, a majority would fall into the 3-8 level probably with the veterans hitting 10th or so and the commander even highter

I'm not so sure. First, an obvious point: the commander will NOT necessarily be the highest level in the patrol, especially not in a hierarchical society like Nemedia. Rank is as much about who you are related to as to what you can do. Secondly, there are big differences in style of play depending on your views on potential. PCs can rise to 20th level, but that doesn't mean everyone can. This is a heroic game, where there are heroes and non heroes, and non heroes are the ones with less potential, not necessarily less skill at any given point in time. I usually have regular people on a scale of one to five, with five being the really powerful veterans. There's no reason why you couldn't have entire armies with no regular line soldiers at 10.

 

[rgrove0172]

Good point. I tend to forget that the PCs are exceptional.

 

[Trodax]

Based on my understanding of character progression, a typical military unit in reality would have only a few new recruits at 1st and 2nd level, a majority would fall into the 3-8 level probably with the veterans hitting 10th or so and the commander even highter.

This sounds way high to me. I usually use the following rule-of-thumb in my games:

Recruits - 1st level
Regulars - 2nd level
Veterans - 3rd level

A commander might be somewhere around 5th level perhaps, and a bad-ass general maybe 10-12th. I would almost never have any NPCs of levels 15-20; perhaps an evil, powerful sorcerer who was the big baddie of a campaign might be up there, but no one else.

I should add, though, that this has got to do with the power-level I like for my Conan games; I usually start the players at 3rd level and have never had any games where the PC's have gone very far above 10th level (level 3-12 is a nice range I think; higher than that I *think* things would get a little too epic for my taste).

And to answer your original question; I do try to keep my NPCs constant in the sense that a squad of Nemedian soldiers would always be level 2, regardless of the PCs levels (there would just have to be more of them if I wanted to threaten my players :wink: ).

 

[Kemper Boyd]

I usually use the following rule-of-thumb in my games:

Recruits - 1st level
Regulars - 2nd level
Veterans - 3rd level

I'd go with:

Recruits - 2nd level (1 commoner/1 soldier)
Regulars - 3rd level (to give them the formation combat)
Veterans - 4th level and beyond

 

[sbarrie]

I use the same distribution as Kemper Boyd, except without the level of Commoner.

If a recruit has background skills that can't be represented by a level of soldier, he can take a skill-based feat (Skill Focus or a 2+2).

Also, high level PCs should know that killing 3rd level soldiers brings consequences. High level characters should be part of audacious plans that could come undone if the PCs reveal their presence by slaughtering a random partol. A party may feel they can slaughter their way across Nemedia, but that won't help if their goal is moved and a trap set before they get to it.

And lastly, I don't start PCs at first level either. 3rd is good.

 

[argo]

Based on my understanding of character progression, a typical military unit in reality would have only a few new recruits at 1st and 2nd level, a majority would fall into the 3-8 level probably with the veterans hitting 10th or so and the commander even highter.

This sounds way high to me. I usually use the following rule-of-thumb in my games:

Recruits - 1st level
Regulars - 2nd level
Veterans - 3rd level

And I'm just the opposite. IMC the average, competent adult is 3rd or 4th level. So my military orginizations would look something like:
Regular - 3rd
Veteran - 5 or 6
Elite - 9 or 10

I really think that by "expanding" the level structure this way it gives me many more options as a GM espically when the campaign heads towards higher level. Besides, I can make a heck of an argument that regular troops should start at 3rd simply since that is where they get their Formation Combat, what good is a soldier who can't operate in formation? :?

Of course even this doesn't really answer the OP's question as it does not sovle the problem, it merly delays it until the PC's hit level 12+. So the question remains; what to do when the PC's start to transcend the "common" experience?

Option 1) "welcome to the big leagues" If the PC's are that much cooler than even the elite troopers then they should start attracting attention from both enemies and allies who want to use them. And if you are going to use a bunch of super-elite mercinaries it will be to do a job you can't hire dime-store thugs to do. IOW it makes sense for the PC's to encounter high-level opponent based on the theory that they are there in the first place because they can meet the challenge. However, this does still mean that they stop worrying about random border patrols in favor of fighting shadowy spec-ops wars.

Option 2) "you're in my world now" look at areas your party is weak in and challenge them there. Maybe they are all killing machines without much stealth, so you give them a stealth mission. Or send them out to sea when nobody has levels of pirate. Take them out of their element, literally. The difficutly here is to make sure the PC's do not have the option to return to their favored tacticts without railroading them too much. IOW if you give them a stealth mission you have to give them a plausable in-game reason why they not only can't be seen but can't simply walk in and kill everybody ("we didnt' leave any witnesses... that's like not being seen isn't it?"). Many groups will chafe at this.

Option 2b) "you're in my world now... did you bring an invitation?" similar to option 2 change the focus of the campaign from squad-based skirmishes, where 4 PC's can be self sufficent, to something where they have to have the help of those low-level NPC's. Society and politics. Or maybe they get to be the general of a bunch of 4th level soldiers. Again though, beware of too much railroading.

Option 3) "wait... did you see the man in the white hat?" "no" "oh good, for a second I thought we were in trouble" Send some mooks after them, send a lot of mooks. One of the things I like about Conan is how it keeps mooks dangerous when there is a sufficent number of them. Multiple attacker bonus, fight on the run for everybody, HP slow down after level 10 and that Massive Damage Threshold is always there. Teach them to respect 50 guys with pikes and Formation Combat (heavy infantry). And don't fight fair either. Are they traveling on foot? Show them what a unit of 3rd level lancers can do when they have Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attck. Or 3rd level Nomads with Mounted Archery riding in circles 100' in diamater around them. Ambush them with 20-30 crossbowmen in the rocks at the top of the cliffs. .... Actually on second thought all of those examples are probably a TPK waiting to happen for any level party but you get the idea

Hope that helps.

 

[Trodax]

Besides, I can make a heck of an argument that regular troops should start at 3rd simply since that is where they get their Formation Combat, what good is a soldier who can't operate in formation?

That's true. I always thought level 3 was a bit high for Soldiers to get their first Formation Combat style for this very reason.

Actually on second thought all of those examples are probably a TPK waiting to happen for any level party but you get the idea

Yup, those encounters sound pretty vicious.

 

[kintire]

I really think that by "expanding" the level structure this way it gives me many more options as a GM espically when the campaign heads towards higher level

To a degree, but if a normal line soldier can be 5th level and an elite trooper is 10th, a 2nd level PC is a total spod. That just isn't Conan for me: PCs should matter from the word go, at least a little. Its all a matter of taste of course.

Besides, I can make a heck of an argument that regular troops should start at 3rd simply since that is where they get their Formation Combat, what good is a soldier who can't operate in formation?

Its true. I think there is a strong argument for giving soldiers their formation feats from 1st. It's not like they usually matter for PCs after all!

 

[Krushnak]

formation combat is meant to represent experience at fighting in a particular style with several other people. lvl 3 is as low as it could be expected to learn as it requires quite alot of training and experience to learn to coordinate with other people properly. lvl1 soldiers in armies are meant to represent levies and fresh recruits not veterans.

 

[sbarrie]

To a degree, but if a normal line soldier can be 5th level and an elite trooper is 10th, a 2nd level PC is a total spod. That just isn't Conan for me: PCs should matter from the word go, at least a little. Its all a matter of taste of course.

That's why I pick a starting level for PCs which is appropriate for their environment. A PC should be better than average. First level PCs don't work, since then you need an environment filled with first level challenges, which become far too weak when the PCs reach higher levels.

Heck, levels simply don't work well for Conan. Young rogue Conan was nearly as dangerous as King Conan.

But, levels are gamable and fun, and the current Conan game has so many good points that I'm willing to work around the levels.

 

[argo]

I really think that by "expanding" the level structure this way it gives me many more options as a GM espically when the campaign heads towards higher level

To a degree, but if a normal line soldier can be 5th level and an elite trooper is 10th, a 2nd level PC is a total spod. That just isn't Conan for me: PCs should matter from the word go, at least a little. Its all a matter of taste of course.

So do what I do, start the campaign at 3rd level (or higher)

Its a matter of changing yoru basic assumptions. Stock dnd has a basic assumption that 90% of "everybody else" is a level 1 Comoner. Now building a game world on that assumption certainly has many advantages but it also has its disadvantages too, most of which revolve around the sorts of problems that we've been discussing in this thread.

Now IMC I changed this basic assumption. Instead my assumption is that your "average, competent adult" is 3rd or 4th level wheras 1st level represents - literally - an untrained child. You build the game world in much the same way you just start off in a different place.

Now, as I said this does not in fact solve the basic dilemma of what to do when the PC's outclass all the "normal" folk (20th level PC's vs 10 level elites is as bad as 8th level PC's vs 3rd level elites). But it does give the GM more "wiggle room" and I have found that oftentimes that little bit of extra space is enough to get by (espically if you only plan to take the PC's up to maybe level 12 or 14, which is often a good place to stop).

Later.

 

[rgrove0172]

Heck, levels simply don't work well for Conan. Young rogue Conan was nearly as dangerous as King Conan.

I kind of thought this as well when I picked up the game. The way the stories depict Conan, even in his earliest adventures, he was pretty powerful. I would have thought Conan at the time of "The Tower of the Elephant" as being of pretty high level already. Of course this all goes contrary to a well-managed game so Ive found its better to just not think about it.

 

[Krushnak]

it's the funny thing about roleplaying games, as pc's we are supposed to be heroes and the main characters in the story but when you look at books, comics and movies the heroes in those are always breaking any sort of 'level' system or restriction thats placed on the pc's.

 

[kintire]

So do what I do, start the campaign at 3rd level (or higher)

But according to your schema, 3rd level is at the lower end of averagely competent adult. That hardly makes you hero material. Admittedly you will have better stats probably, but even so. If you are stopping the campaign at 13-14 (which I think is wise) you are compressing the levels not widening them.

Now, as I said this does not in fact solve the basic dilemma of what to do when the PC's outclass all the "normal" folk

Now you see I think this is where we differ. I just don't see a problem here at all. This is Conan: the PCs are supposed to outclass all the normal people. Mowing your way through the city guards when the employer fails to back up your story, cutting a swathe through the enemy corsairs when you counter board their ship and cutting down the crazed feuding cultists left and right when they use their sorcery to break in to the safe zone etc is a vital part of the tales. Of course, when the normal people are in sufficient numbers they can drag you down, but generally threats to the PCs should come from the abnormal people: The sorcerers, heroes and monsters.